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An unusual Ishapore Enfield

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    Posted: June 07 2022 at 12:54pm
While a new member, I have been studying the comments of some of the
membership. Believe I am at the right place with knowledgeable folks.

My Lee Enfield is chambered in 7.62, and appears to be an Ishapore 2A1,
but I could be in error. The reason is the lack of some markings and yet
the serial numbers are matching excepting the magazine. Magazine S.No. is different.

The SN is 56198, with an A above the -1-stamped. Stratton was not helpful in this case. Serial number is the same -stamped at bolt,action, and forend cap. These numbers are the ONLY apparent numbers excepting the cross banner staffs just forward of the action serial number, and placed about 1.24 inches out on the barrel.
Bore is in excellent condition.Wood is serviceable and appears original.
I have shot this rifle with moderate handloaded cartridges, using jacketed and lead bullets. Reviewing comments from senior members here, I think I will refrain from using bullets heavier than 150 grains.

I am reluctant to mention the price paid for this rifle about 20 years ago.
However, I think WMD Bell mentions in his African book "Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter" how he or a fellow hunter ended up in the outback without ammunition for his rifle. He bought an Enfield rifle that had a headspace issue, and escaping cartridge gas singed the shooter every time the rifle was fired at large animals including elephants. Solid metal-cased military bullets were cheap and available-so he continued to use it for awhile.
He had paid one (1) British pound for the rifle. My purchase experience was similar but without the headspace problem. Many thanks-in advance.
(pictures not available due to a digital camera issue.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2022 at 4:37pm
150 Gr is the "correct" weight for a 7.62mm, no problem.
Headspace is a little different issue. Thre is one & only one right way to check it, with a set of headspace gauges by someone who know how to use them. But you can do some observing which may set your mind at rest.
If in doubt have a knowledgeable smith WITH LEE ENFIELD EXPERIENCE check it for real.
take 3 or 4 fired cases.
Carefully compare them to unfired ones.
If you have micrometers or calipers use them.
a "slight" blowing out of cases, possibly slightly asymmetrical, about 3/8" forward of the extractor groove is fine.
A "slight" blowing out of shape of the shoulder & neck is fine.
("slight" means barely visible)
Anything more is cause for concern & at least get it checked!

"stuff blowing back at your face" is definite cause for concern, don't mess about it, get it to a smith.

There is a gas vent port on the left upper side of the receiver ring, if "stuff" is coming out of there its a problem. the usual "field expedient" test is some thin cardboard rubber banded to cover it. A little smoke smudge is fine. Shredded, burnt to a crisp or holes blown in it is not.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 450 Fuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2022 at 5:13pm
Thanks, Shamu.

This Lee Enfield has no noticeable headspace or blowback issues as yet.
It also has one of the best two stage triggers I have encountered. I still may
get the headspace checked as a safety margin measure. It is at least a 50-60
yr old rifle with an unknown history.

It is reasonably accurate, and has the earlier MK III sight, not an aperture type.

That and the lack of marking as typical 2A1 Ishapore have me wondering as to the
model and if it possibly is a conversion variant. At approximately $40 US-it is almost like Bell's 1 pound rifle- used 303 African Enfield.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2022 at 6:04pm
Something to consider when loading your own ammo for the 2A 7.62.  This rifle was made to shoot 7.62 NATO spec ammunition. 

Military 7.62 ball cartridge cases are generally thicker than most .308 commercial cases above the case head as they were designed to also be used in machine guns which typically had larger chambers for reliable feeding.  Headspace of the rifle chamber in the 2A rifle may also be longer than .308 commercial specs.  So be careful shooting handloads using .308 commercial brass that is full length sized until you get the headspace checked.  I would not load to .308 max velocities for the 2A1 rifle, you should be fine loading to .308 minimum velocities contained in reloading manuals. The strength of the 2A1 action is debatable, the British found the No. 1 action unsuitable for conversion to 7.62 NATO. 

It is useful to get a cartridge case headspace comparator tool (such as the one made by Hornady) so you can adjust your sizing die to size cases appropriate to the chamber dimensions, you only need to bump the shoulder back by a few thousands of an inch and not back to .308 minimums. 

I don’t think you have to limit bullets to 150 gr.  Appropriate powder charge weights with a 168 or 175 gr jacketed bullet is fine.  My No. 4 Long Branch 7.62 prefers the 168/174 grain bullets over the 147/150 gr bullet. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 450 Fuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2022 at 7:43pm
Good advice on reloading for the 7.62 mm. Military Machine gun ball ammunition, as used in the M-60 sees a hard life, as well as in semi-auto sturm gewehr battle rifles. Military primer crimping and thick cases
hold up better over time, though cases require preparation. So far, I have been successful with brass neck sizing only for this rifle- as it is the only 7.62/308 cal weapon that I own.
This allows the case to partially fire-form to the rifle's chamber and could extend brass life through minimum work hardening.

Correct in that the British did find that the No. 1 action was questionable.
The Ishapore arsenal apparently re-hardened and re-proof tested the 2A rifles, but they are still none too strong, again pointing to judicious handloading.
An oiled cartridge might not be the best test.

More rifles that I have are stronger in 30-06 including a Garand and other early Model 70s
up to the 375 H&H.

The Garand, 03-A3 Springfields, Pattern 17, and Mausers were a bit stronger actions, IMHO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2022 at 3:43am
Neck sizing is the way to go.  With light loads, you should get 5 or more reloads before you begin to feel resistance to locking the bolt, at which point will have to bump the shoulder back with a full length die. 

I’ve been using Canadian 7.62  1959-1962 Dominion Arsenal brass for loading my No. 4 conversion.  40 grains of Varget with 168 Sierra MatchKing.  Shoots great, very accurate out to 600 yards. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enfield trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2022 at 8:32pm
Correct in that the British did find that the No. 1 action was questionable. 
The Ishapore arsenal apparently re-hardened and re-proof tested the 2A rifles …”

Do you have a reference to this statement? I have not hear that but have heard the false statements that the Indians used “better” steel for the 2A/A1 rifles. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 450 Fuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2022 at 2:11am
In the Feb 2022 earlier thread:"Ishapore 2A1 bolt head question":
: See our members quote and comment on Skennerton's Book "The Lee-Enfield Story:
"The RSAF Enfield concluded in the late 50s early 60's that the NO 1 rifle was unsuitable for conversion to 7.62 due to limitations in strength and stiffness of the action".
This thread also discusses at length the measures taken by Ishapore to the 2A1: steel, proof tests, and the parts of the rifle subjected to further treatment.
A most interesting series -recommended reading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SMLEBloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2024 at 2:48am

he!!o, From Australia

Just a word on the Indian.

Ishapore Rifle 7.62mm, Model 2A.

Safety Caveat, 

"If you do buy one of these Rifles".
"Do have it correctly, Head Spaced by a Qualified Gunsmith".

Preferably by someone who is familiar with the type, (Lee Enfield Action).

Please, do not be discouraged at all.
"By the above statement".

Well maintained and if kept, In good order, these are great Rifles.
Will last a life time & then some.

Having been an enthusiast, owned and fired all types of Lee Enfields including the Pattern 1914 & US Rifle Model 1917. For about 45 years now.

My book case has one shelf.
Entirely dedicated to these rifles, including their maintenance & history.

Mr Ian Skennerton and Charles R Stratton, (RIP).
Being some of my favorite authors on the subject.
Amongst others.

However, I read a lot and each day try to improve my English skills, 
which are still wanting.

("Really wish our young people would read more too. 
As it always improves your life at any stage".)


The Short Version:  

The Ishapore, Rifle Model 2A in 7.62mm, (NATO).

Are not strictly speaking, SMLE Rifles.
Hence the different naming conventions.

There is also the Model 2A1, a later variant.

Also, they are not.
Conversions of .303 SMLE Rifles, (But that's another story).

The Ishapore Rifles, Model 2A in 7.62mm are or were.

When manufactured brand new, production rifles.
Designed from the start for the new at the time, 7.62mm round.

A Factory Proof Test of 19 Imperial Tons was required for this.
Strengthened, Lee Bolt Action, design specification.

In order to take the higher pressure of the 7.62 NATO round.


Previously

Factory Proof Test for .303 SMLE Rifle No1, MK III Rifles.
Which may Include an, (* Asterisk) in the rifle designation.
Required an 18 Imperial Ton, Proof Test.
For .303 British, usually MK VII ammunition, 174 Grain, FMJ.
After 1916, through to 1955. 

Final Australian .303 SMLE Rifle production ended in 1953.
Last assembly of 1000 .303 SMLE No1 Rifles In Lithgow, NSW Australia.

Occurred in 1955 in order to prove the factory machinery capability.
Before it was serviced, greased up, stored and mothballed.

Note:

Neither Australia or India.
Converted to production of the No IV, (Four) series of .303 Rifles.
In WW2 or Postwar.


The Nation of India


At the time, only recently.

Independent from British rule from 1947 and,
less than 20 years a nation.


To produce the Rifle Model 2A in 7.62mm.
 
The Indian Ordnance Factory, System.

Really, "Pulled A Swifty" 

On the other members of our Commonwealth Of Nations.

By implementing a very laymen type, solution.

To a somewhat, complex & technical task at hand.


In essence they thought outside the box.

In order to make this rifle a success.

The Indian, Rifle Model 2A in 7.62mm.

is really a success story of an emerging nation.

The Indian Government & Ordnance Dept.

Considered, retooling to produce the FAL Rifle to be too cost prohibitive.

Concurrently at this time.
The other issue was the factory personnel were considered to be semi-skilled.

If you were making woodwork for the .303 SMLE Rifles at the Ishapore factory.
It is likely, your father and indeed your grandfather did the exact same job.
Dad, probably bought you to work on occasion and you started by sweeping the floor around his machine.

Note: It is very important

Not to view this Indian industry experience, through the lens of American industrial practices.

You can have a Semi Skilled, workforce and still produce a very high quality product.


The previous British, Indian Ordnance Dept had got around this issue at Ishapore and other factories.

By implementing a more numerous and rigorous inspection & gauging regime.


A more recent American example and experience of this was the Marlin Factory, before the sale & move in 2005?

Those human, Marlin factory workers used old & very worn out machinery, (Connecticut?)

However, they were such a unique & skilled workforce.

Spent so much time on their individual machines, that any out of tolerance part.

A result of worn out ways & aging out of tolerance machinery.

Could and was first observed by eyeball and then.

Corrected with further machining & gauging.


This is part of the reason that Remington had so much trouble.

Trying to convert analogue erranious, human eyeball corrections to CNC machinery.


As Elon Musk, stated 

if he had to produce the Tesla car again.

He would use more humans on the production line.

If a computerised, robot machine breaks down on the line.

Production just stops,

If you have humans doing the assembly, production will usually slow.

However it generally won't stop, as people will find a temporary work around.

Elon, stated that humans are so underrated.

Indian Ordnance

Believed it had a way to strengthen the Lee Bolt Action system.

In this mission they were proven to be correct and by doing so.

Negated much of the training liability, that retooling to produce the FAL would have entailed.



As following the end of WW2.
All major Commonwealth Nations, found themselves in the 1950's.
To be in possession of very large numbers of serviceable.
Lee Enfield Rifles of various types.

7.62mm was agreed to be adopted by the UK.

Britain in late 1953?
As the future for a Standard, NATO Cartridge.


Dammit A Segway


Indeed 20 years, later.
This is one reason of many, why.

The excellent US M14 Rifle, soldiered on in American Service.
Retained as Standard Issue.
For all US Forces, deployed to Germany or Europe.
In the first Ten years, following Vietnam.

Though a futuristic design.
The M16, may have been at the time and,
Looking Star Wars, capable in appearance.

All tarted up in black.
Like your Mother-in-Law would be.
If you were taking her to the Prom Night dance.
Just to impress your friends.

I'm afraid it's belated, service debut.
For NATO Operations.
In the European Theater.
Displayed all the Hallmarks of Turning up.

A Day Late & A Dollar Short.


Anyway I digress.

Please accept my sincere apologies.

So I will pause here.

For now.

However, I should like to return for Part Two

Of the Ishapore
Rifle, Model 2A Story.

Cheers for now.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 450 Fuller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2024 at 3:25pm
A bloody excellent response-well researched.
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