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Primer data & accuracy

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Sapper740 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sapper740 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2024 at 2:41am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

We had a member here that routinely posted targets with 10 and sometimes 20 rounds with extreme spreads under 1 MOA, sometimes as small as 1/3 MOA, rather unbelievable. Minute of Internet some would say….

Ah yes, I remember that gentleman.  It seemed no matter what a member posted he had done it better, faster, cheaper, sooner, or more often.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2024 at 3:45am
Originally posted by Kerryjack Kerryjack wrote:


The one thing that stands out from the experienced based comments comes back to learning fundamental skills as the starting point, the one item that is not for sale.
All I want to do is shoot my BAM rifles as well as my skill level will allow. Maybe people don't want to tell me my skills are not so good and this is why they seem to want to send me down rabbit holes looking for the panacea that they believe exists in a distant place.
What I take from all the experienced based comments is, the quality and tolerances of my BAM rifles will never operate at a level where the (alleged) performance differences between primers will be a defining element of accuracy.


^^^^ This

Endless load development searching for the magic formula of components and variables and shooting off the bench won’t advance your shooting skill.  It’s a distraction quite frankly and a good way to inhibit your progress. 

If you happen to have access to ADI AR2208 (Varget) load up 40 grains and seat either the 174 Sierra MatchKing or 174 Hornady Match to 3.05 OAL, case and primer of your choice.  This load will shoot as good as any other.  Then go concentrate on the shooting position fundamentals without all the clutter going on in your head about what might be wrong with the load.  

Once you can hold a 2 MOA ten shot group at short range (300 yds and under), you might find a hair bit of improvement at mid to long range (500 to 1000 yds) by tweaking loads a bit, but not necessary. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2024 at 4:11am
I shoot Service rifle competition in France. We only get a couple of events; and I don't have the opportunity to practice as much as I need to. 
I lose far more points by my inconsistentcies; than problems with the load. I don't have access to all of the powders that are available. But there are some good ones. I've tried a few, and different loads. But once you find a good repeatable load. Just get out and practice. 
As far as primers go; I have only tried Federal and Winchester. Didn't notice any real difference.
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Sapper740 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sapper740 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2024 at 5:40am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

If you happen to have access to ADI AR2208 (Varget) load up 40 grains and seat either the 174 Sierra MatchKing or 174 Hornady Match to 3.05 OAL, case and primer of your choice.

It's uncanny how many shooters, independently working up accurate handloads have come up with this formula.
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2024 at 6:04am
Originally posted by Sapper740 Sapper740 wrote:

Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

If you happen to have access to ADI AR2208 (Varget) load up 40 grains and seat either the 174 Sierra MatchKing or 174 Hornady Match to 3.05 OAL, case and primer of your choice.

It's uncanny how many shooters, independently working up accurate handloads have come up with this formula.

Yup, I've been shooting this load for many years now.  Not sure exactly how long (at least 10 years) and where I got the idea to try Varget.  Prior to this load, I used Re 15, it's also excellent with the .303 but is  a bit temp sensitive, shows up at 600 yards shooting summer vs winter, but not so much at 200. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2024 at 8:02am
Shamu, if you happen to read this, might be better if this thread is moved to the .303 Reloading Forum

[EDITORS COMMENT]
I HAVE MOVED THESE POSTS TO .303 RELOADING, the thread is titled "primer data & accuracy" which is where they belong anyway. Its not possible to "move a a thread" with the forum software, but individual posts can be moved.
I tried to move them in the same order, but if I erred its entirely my fault.
Dot & carry one can me a trying methodology sometimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2024 at 8:48am
Originally posted by Sapper740 Sapper740 wrote:

[QUOTE=britrifles]We had a member here that routinely posted targets with 10 and sometimes 20 rounds with extreme spreads under 1 MOA, sometimes as small as 1/3 MOA, rather unbelievable. Minute of Internet some would say….

Ah yes, I remember that gentleman.  It seemed no matter what a member posted he had done it better, faster, cheaper, sooner, or more often.
[/QUOTE

I remember that gentleman. Lots of knowledge, could be a tad forward, but as they say " you reap what you sow. " That being said, I did buy a P-H apature sight from him at a very reasonable price and he was good to deal with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2024 at 12:51pm

Apologies in advance for the long article here, but wanted to back up some of my previous statements with actual shooting results. 

 

To illustrate my previous posts regarding the accuracy capability of the No. 4 Lee Enfield shooting prone unsupported with the aid of a sling and aperture sights, I shot this 800 yard target shown below this past June.  This was with my Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (DCRA) 7.62 Conversion of a Fazakerley No. 4 Mk 2 with a Long Branch made 7.62mm barrel (of normal .303 service weight).  The conversion was done by Canadian Arsenals Ltd in Long Branch, Ontario for the purposes of SR(b) target shooting sponsored by the DCRA.  Barrel is bedded in the forend at the sling swivel band with 12-14 lbs pressure and at the chamber reinforce and has 2,300 rounds thru it.  The rifle is fitted with a Parker Hale 5C ¼ MOA click adjustable rear sight with standard six hole eyepiece and A.J. Parker “Matchmaker” front sight. 

 

The Load:

 

   Lapua .308 Win case - neck sized

   CCI BR-2 benchrest primers

   44.0 gr Varget (ADI AR2208) – all charges weighed

   Sierra 168 gr Tipped MatchKing seated to 2.95 inches for 0.020 inches off the lands. 

 

At this distance (800 yds) you can expect significant lateral dispersion due to wind drift and the challenge to identify and adjust (in advance of each shot) for the small shifts in wind direction and strength.  Vertical dispersion is a good indicator of how accurate the rifle and load is when fired off the elbows in the prone position.  I shot 12 rounds here, shot #11 was in the 8 ring at 9:00 caused by an undetected wind strength change.  The target monitor is zoomed in to show the full 10 ring and part of the 9 ring.  A 1 MOA grid line overlay can also be seen on the target photo. 

 

This load gives 5 to 9 fps standard deviation in velocity, the best I have recorded in .303 and 7.62/.308 handloads.  I attribute this to careful attention to reloading steps, quality of components and the consistency of the BR-2 primer.  Substituting CCI #200 primers or WRL primers gave more than double the velocity standard deviation. This consistency in muzzle velocity is what helps maintain a reasonably small vertical spread at long range: 12 inches (1.5 MOA) for the 12 shots. Excluding shot #11, the windage spread is 16 inches (2 MOA).

 

At 200 yards, I have equaled this 1.5 MOA group with ten shots shooting prone with my Fulton Regulated Long Branch No. 4 Mk I/3 (with standard as issued Mk 1 rear sight and blade foresight) in .303 using my standard .303 match load: PPU case, WLR primer, 40.0 gr Varget (charges thrown directly from measure into case) and 174 gr SMK seated to 3.05 inches.  200 yards is more forgiving of the small variations in case dimensions/weight, primer, powder charge weight, etc. than they are at 800 or 1000 yards.  

 

I’ve not yet been able to get a standard bedded (3-5 lb muzzle bearing) No. 4 rifle to shoot quite as good as those with center or mid-band bedded forends.  Some of this could be barrel condition.  I’ve gotten close, but not quite as good.




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Mayhem View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayhem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2024 at 4:40pm
Thanks for taking the time to put this together.  Good to see you have upgraded to Shotmarker!
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 04 2024 at 5:30pm
Not my own target system. This was shot at the Dead Zero range near Spencer, Tennessee, open to the public.  Hard to find a range with targets out to 1000 yards in the US South East.  

The range I usually shoot at in Talladega, Alabama only goes out to 600 yds.  It has the Kongsberg Target system. The CMP is in the process of converting over to a wireless target system, not sure what it is yet. 

I do like the features of the shot marker system though.  Many different target overlays can be selected, but I was told not to mess with them as it changes everyone else’s target overlay! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2024 at 2:57am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

I do like the features of the shot marker system though.  Many different target overlays can be selected, but I was told not to mess with them as it changes everyone else’s target overlay!

Agree! 
I like the Shot Marker system too, although it's ruined at Bisley by pairing it with cheap and unsuitable monitors, i.e. the cheapest tablets to be found on Ebay! 

We also have Kongsberg's which I have found to be brilliant, the let down on both systems is the lack of a tin hat target face despite my whinging about it at every opportunity. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2024 at 5:35am
Mick, I don’t understand the reluctance of the use of a tin hat target face for the Historical Matches. After all, that is the true historical target type used at short and mid range!  Does not take much effort to change the target face prior to and after the match. 

I believe I’ve seen the correct sized score rings for SR(b) shooting in the shot marker system, but would be much better if paired with the correct target face!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strangely Brown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2024 at 6:36am
Geoff, this is really for practice days when booking a lane for myself, most historic competitions do use tin hat targets I'm pleased to say.
I had a very positive conversation with the guy in charge of range maintenance who was going to contact Kongsberg...three weeks later covid descended upon the UK, 2 years later he left the NRA for new pastures so it ever happened.
Since that first conversation we now have Shotmarker on the range as well as Kongsberg, the Shotmaster targets have the tin hat dimensions included in the system but no tin hat target face.
I've asked a couple of people who represent the historical shooting side of Bisley if it can be discussed at the NRA Council meeting later this month. <holding my breath>   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2024 at 6:54am
I wished the CMP would provide an optional tin hat target face, but no chance of that ever happening. As far as I can tell, the US Army or USMC never used the tin hat target. Although, they did use at one time a bull that scored 5 rather than the current 10. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayhem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2024 at 4:23pm
You can make your own targets up.  If I find a sight with the correct dimensions, I may invest the time in learning how to build a custom target.  Also, you can change each individual target face independently.  We always have both field and service targets running at the same time.

I bought my own access point, so I can look at my targets later and measure group sizes.  I simply connect to the system at the range with my phone and export my sessions.  Then when I get home I import them into my access point and I have the same environment on my laptop.
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