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Primer data & accuracy |
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Sapper740
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Joined: July 15 2021 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 1737 |
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Posted: September 03 2024 at 2:41am |
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Ah yes, I remember that gentleman. It seemed no matter what a member posted he had done it better, faster, cheaper, sooner, or more often.
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: September 03 2024 at 3:45am |
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^^^^ This Endless load development searching for the magic formula of components and variables and shooting off the bench won’t advance your shooting skill. It’s a distraction quite frankly and a good way to inhibit your progress. If you happen to have access to ADI AR2208 (Varget) load up 40 grains and seat either the 174 Sierra MatchKing or 174 Hornady Match to 3.05 OAL, case and primer of your choice. This load will shoot as good as any other. Then go concentrate on the shooting position fundamentals without all the clutter going on in your head about what might be wrong with the load. Once you can hold a 2 MOA ten shot group at short range (300 yds and under), you might find a hair bit of improvement at mid to long range (500 to 1000 yds) by tweaking loads a bit, but not necessary. |
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Zed
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Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460 |
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Posted: September 03 2024 at 4:11am |
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I shoot Service rifle competition in France. We only get a couple of events; and I don't have the opportunity to practice as much as I need to.
I lose far more points by my inconsistentcies; than problems with the load. I don't have access to all of the powders that are available. But there are some good ones. I've tried a few, and different loads. But once you find a good repeatable load. Just get out and practice. As far as primers go; I have only tried Federal and Winchester. Didn't notice any real difference.
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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Sapper740
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Joined: July 15 2021 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 1737 |
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Posted: September 03 2024 at 5:40am |
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It's uncanny how many shooters, independently working up accurate handloads have come up with this formula.
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: September 03 2024 at 6:04am |
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Yup, I've been shooting this load for many years now. Not sure exactly how long (at least 10 years) and where I got the idea to try Varget. Prior to this load, I used Re 15, it's also excellent with the .303 but is a bit temp sensitive, shows up at 600 yards shooting summer vs winter, but not so much at 200.
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: September 03 2024 at 8:02am |
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Shamu, if you happen to read this, might be better if this thread is moved to the .303 Reloading Forum [EDITORS COMMENT] I HAVE MOVED THESE POSTS TO .303 RELOADING, the thread is titled "primer data & accuracy" which is where they belong anyway. Its not possible to "move a a thread" with the forum software, but individual posts can be moved. I tried to move them in the same order, but if I erred its entirely my fault. Dot & carry one can me a trying methodology sometimes. ![]() |
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Honkytonk
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Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 5190 |
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Posted: September 03 2024 at 8:48am |
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Ah yes, I remember that gentleman. It seemed no matter what a member posted he had done it better, faster, cheaper, sooner, or more often. [/QUOTEI remember that gentleman. Lots of knowledge, could be a tad forward, but as they say " you reap what you sow. " That being said, I did buy a P-H apature sight from him at a very reasonable price and he was good to deal with.
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: September 04 2024 at 12:51pm |
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Apologies in advance for the long article here, but wanted to back up some of my previous statements with actual shooting results. To illustrate my previous posts regarding the accuracy capability of the No. 4 Lee Enfield shooting prone unsupported with the aid of a sling and aperture sights, I shot this 800 yard target shown below this past June. This was with my Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (DCRA) 7.62 Conversion of a Fazakerley No. 4 Mk 2 with a Long Branch made 7.62mm barrel (of normal .303 service weight). The conversion was done by Canadian Arsenals Ltd in Long Branch, Ontario for the purposes of SR(b) target shooting sponsored by the DCRA. Barrel is bedded in the forend at the sling swivel band with 12-14 lbs pressure and at the chamber reinforce and has 2,300 rounds thru it. The rifle is fitted with a Parker Hale 5C ¼ MOA click adjustable rear sight with standard six hole eyepiece and A.J. Parker “Matchmaker” front sight. The Load: Lapua .308 Win case - neck sized CCI BR-2 benchrest primers 44.0 gr Varget (ADI AR2208) – all charges weighed Sierra 168 gr Tipped MatchKing seated to 2.95 inches for 0.020 inches off the lands. At this distance (800 yds) you can expect significant lateral dispersion due to wind drift and the challenge to identify and adjust (in advance of each shot) for the small shifts in wind direction and strength. Vertical dispersion is a good indicator of how accurate the rifle and load is when fired off the elbows in the prone position. I shot 12 rounds here, shot #11 was in the 8 ring at 9:00 caused by an undetected wind strength change. The target monitor is zoomed in to show the full 10 ring and part of the 9 ring. A 1 MOA grid line overlay can also be seen on the target photo. This load gives 5 to 9 fps standard deviation in velocity, the best I have recorded in .303 and 7.62/.308 handloads. I attribute this to careful attention to reloading steps, quality of components and the consistency of the BR-2 primer. Substituting CCI #200 primers or WRL primers gave more than double the velocity standard deviation. This consistency in muzzle velocity is what helps maintain a reasonably small vertical spread at long range: 12 inches (1.5 MOA) for the 12 shots. Excluding shot #11, the windage spread is 16 inches (2 MOA). At 200 yards, I have equaled this 1.5 MOA group with ten shots shooting prone with my Fulton Regulated Long Branch No. 4 Mk I/3 (with standard as issued Mk 1 rear sight and blade foresight) in .303 using my standard .303 match load: PPU case, WLR primer, 40.0 gr Varget (charges thrown directly from measure into case) and 174 gr SMK seated to 3.05 inches. 200 yards is more forgiving of the small variations in case dimensions/weight, primer, powder charge weight, etc. than they are at 800 or 1000 yards. I’ve not yet been able to get a standard bedded (3-5 lb muzzle bearing) No. 4 rifle to shoot quite as good as those with center or mid-band bedded forends. Some of this could be barrel condition. I’ve gotten close, but not quite as good.
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Mayhem
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Joined: February 06 2016 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 335 |
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Posted: September 04 2024 at 4:40pm |
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Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Good to see you have upgraded to Shotmarker!
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.303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: September 04 2024 at 5:30pm |
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Not my own target system. This was shot at the Dead Zero range near Spencer, Tennessee, open to the public. Hard to find a range with targets out to 1000 yards in the US South East.
The range I usually shoot at in Talladega, Alabama only goes out to 600 yds. It has the Kongsberg Target system. The CMP is in the process of converting over to a wireless target system, not sure what it is yet. I do like the features of the shot marker system though. Many different target overlays can be selected, but I was told not to mess with them as it changes everyone else’s target overlay! |
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Strangely Brown
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Joined: April 05 2022 Location: Wiltshire Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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Posted: September 05 2024 at 2:57am |
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Agree! I like the Shot Marker system too, although it's ruined at Bisley by pairing it with cheap and unsuitable monitors, i.e. the cheapest tablets to be found on Ebay! We also have Kongsberg's which I have found to be brilliant, the let down on both systems is the lack of a tin hat target face despite my whinging about it at every opportunity.
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Mick
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: September 05 2024 at 5:35am |
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Mick, I don’t understand the reluctance of the use of a tin hat target face for the Historical Matches. After all, that is the true historical target type used at short and mid range! Does not take much effort to change the target face prior to and after the match.
I believe I’ve seen the correct sized score rings for SR(b) shooting in the shot marker system, but would be much better if paired with the correct target face!
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Strangely Brown
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Joined: April 05 2022 Location: Wiltshire Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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Posted: September 05 2024 at 6:36am |
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Geoff, this is really for practice days when booking a lane for myself, most historic competitions do use tin hat targets I'm pleased to say.
I had a very positive conversation with the guy in charge of range maintenance who was going to contact Kongsberg...three weeks later covid descended upon the UK, 2 years later he left the NRA for new pastures so it ever happened. Since that first conversation we now have Shotmarker on the range as well as Kongsberg, the Shotmaster targets have the tin hat dimensions included in the system but no tin hat target face. I've asked a couple of people who represent the historical shooting side of Bisley if it can be discussed at the NRA Council meeting later this month. <holding my breath>
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Mick
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: September 05 2024 at 6:54am |
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I wished the CMP would provide an optional tin hat target face, but no chance of that ever happening. As far as I can tell, the US Army or USMC never used the tin hat target. Although, they did use at one time a bull that scored 5 rather than the current 10.
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Mayhem
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Joined: February 06 2016 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 335 |
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Posted: September 05 2024 at 4:23pm |
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You can make your own targets up. If I find a sight with the correct dimensions, I may invest the time in learning how to build a custom target. Also, you can change each individual target face independently. We always have both field and service targets running at the same time.
I bought my own access point, so I can look at my targets later and measure group sizes. I simply connect to the system at the range with my phone and export my sessions. Then when I get home I import them into my access point and I have the same environment on my laptop.
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.303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889
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