Improved group size.

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Shamu... 
i think you hit the nail fairly square on the head there. All this fixed solid bench rests etc, only prove that that when everything is mechanically sound... with no human in the line, apart from loading and pulling the trigger... a very tight grouping is achieved. To my way of thinking, that method is a total waste of time. Why? it doesn't prove how the firer operates, or what their capabilities are. it still does not prove if the firer can, or cannot hit the target and achieve the required grouping or better.

Also, the individual is not being true to themselves. I personaly have never used a bench rest, and never will. The aim of zeroing, is to match the rifle to the firers style. This cannot be achieved by using such devices as bench rests. However, for safety reasons when bedding in new barrels, bolts, or other mechanical parts... I can see the reasoning behind such devices. But for target shooting... no. Its the individuals skills that matter at the end of the day.

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Sarge Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: April 20 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 495	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sarge Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 15 2013 at 7:51am
	Shamu... i think you hit the nail fairly square on the head there. All this fixed solid bench rests etc, only prove that that when everything is mechanically sound... with no human in the line, apart from loading and pulling the trigger... a very tight grouping is achieved. To my way of thinking, that method is a total waste of time. Why? it doesn't prove how the firer operates, or what their capabilities are. it still does not prove if the firer can, or cannot hit the target and achieve the required grouping or better. Also, the individual is not being true to themselves. I personaly have never used a bench rest, and never will. The aim of zeroing, is to match the rifle to the firers style. This cannot be achieved by using such devices as bench rests. However, for safety reasons when bedding in new barrels, bolts, or other mechanical parts... I can see the reasoning behind such devices. But for target shooting... no. Its the individuals skills that matter at the end of the day.
	This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!

Shamu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 20510	Post Options Post Reply Quote Shamu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 15 2013 at 9:57pm
	Thats why I seperated out the part about shooting being different from testing the gun's abilities. The final result is a combination of the rifle's abilities & the shooters technique & skill. I test that way only when I'm trying to fix or adjust something, the rest of the time I'm slung up & (usually) prone. A BIG diffderence between shooting in the U.S. & The U.K. is the bench itself. Many ranges here ONLY allow shooting from a bench! No standing, sitting kneeling or prone. We also score "inwards", not "outwards" (bullet breaking a line score the lower/higher value), but that's another story!
	Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 16 2013 at 3:29am
	I only use the rest when I'm testing different ammo or want to test work that may effect the accuracy. As I am still quit new to this (I've only acquired the No8's in the last 6 months and the No4 in 2011) The difference between what I achieve in a test, which is the rifles potential and what I achieve when shooting normally shows me how much work I have to do! After refitting the wood on my No8 I was using it for a few weeks and noticed my scores had dropped by a few points, and I was not sure if it was me or the rifle at first. The test confirmed there was a difference in the rifle since the rebuild and helped me to rectify that. I am sure if I had as much experience as some of you guys I would have realised it was the rifle. It's a learning curve for me, and I appreciate all the advice received.
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Shamu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 20510	Post Options Post Reply Quote Shamu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 16 2013 at 6:04am
	Zed: Can you post a better picture of how you've rigged that sling with the ahem "King Screw Swivel"? How do you employ it with the center attached close to the stock 1/2 way down? I think I may be about to learn something!
	Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 16 2013 at 2:56pm
	Shamu, I will take some photos of how I use the sling. It is removed from the rifle at the moment because they have banned slings from the .22 military rifle competitions this year. We are shooting tomorrow. I will put it back on afterwards and post some pic's.
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 20 2013 at 4:51am
	Shamu, here are a couple of pictures taken on Sunday morning at the range, with the sling fitted and in use on the No8. I'm not sure it really helps in the prone position, but it is useful when standing to help dampen the movement. Having the sling come through the centre swivel helps prevent any sideways pull of the fore end woodwork. Saying that; I had a good result on Saturday's competition without the sling (I got 4th place with 98/100 prone and 84/100 standing) my wife was not so happy without the sling, (23rd place overall 94/100 prone and 56/10 standing) and after I'd refitted it she shot a 79/100 standing on Sunday morning. So she was a bit peeved with the 56 he day before ! Especially as it turned out the referee who told us we could not use the slings was wrong, problem was Saturday I had left them at home
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

Shamu Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 20510	Post Options Post Reply Quote Shamu Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 20 2013 at 4:58am
	Thanks, thats kind of where I thought you might be going with that. Is that sling the longer one with the sewn in tabs from earlier, it seems a standard web sling might be a bit short for that trick? I have the "king screw" swivel, but I'm using it with a "Ching style" double loop sling so it still puts pressure on the forend, but I've seen SLR (FAL) slings attached at the rear of the handguard so as to not put pressure on theat thin light barrel they have.
	Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 20 2013 at 5:06am
	Yes these are the ones with the tabs sewn on. I have one for each No8. They would suit the no4 also, as they are almost on the shortest adjustment on these. The standard slings can slip if you start to pull on them too much.
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!

LE Owner Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1047	Post Options Post Reply Quote LE Owner Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 23 2013 at 12:33am
	Breth control is one thing I'm very up on, having done quite a bit of free diving when younger, achieving a full five minutes submersion at 25 ft on my best day. Scared the begezzus out of a young lady who came in to use the diving pool while I was down there, she thought she'd found a drowning victim. When she pulled up from her high dive I was there holding the bottom rung of the ladder. You would not believe the look on her face. Anyway best practice is to breath deeply and slowly for several minutes, don't over do it or you get giddy, take a deep breath(not a lung buster, just a normal deep breath as when taking in the morning air in the country), release half that breath very slowly while getting your sight picture, then hold that half a lungful while fining down your sight picture and squeeze the trigger while dead still. Friends say its spooky how still I get when shooting. Not a single muscle moves except heart beat and trigger finger. PS A placid mind is another aid when shooting. Not so much concentration as simply thinking of nothing else but the sight picture and trigger pull, no room in the mind for doubt. The less you think the less chance of overthinking and screwing up. As in any martial art the hand, eye, and spinal cord are working faster than the mind can work. When sight picture is perfect the trigger finger gets the message from the spinal cord faster than you can think. When there's no discernible hesitation there's no loss of sight picture. Follow through is another factor. I suggest archery and shooting muzzle loaders to develop follow through. This is especially useful when using old milsurp ammo with varying length of hesitation on ignition. Even a few hundredths of a second variation can make a difference if you don't follow through consistently on very shot.

paddyofurniture Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: December 26 2011 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 7942	Post Options Post Reply Quote paddyofurniture Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 23 2013 at 2:00am
	Thanks I will try that.
	Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.

Sarge Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: April 20 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 495	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sarge Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 23 2013 at 2:55am
	Le Owner... I could not have said it better myself!
	This is MY rifle, there are many like, but this one... is MINE!

Zed Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6460	Post Options Post Reply Quote Zed Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May 23 2013 at 4:55am
	LE Owner,thank you very much for your advice, I will be trying to improve my technique (but not in the deep end!) A placid mind is something that definitely makes a difference. At my shoot last saturday I was not as calm as normal. I think this was due to a fairly major accident that happened in our workshop the day before, a colleague accidently ignited fuel vapor in the trunk of a car and the vapor remaining in the gas tank exploded, blowing him across the room, luckily it was just a loud bang and flash fire, my colleague suffered mild burns, but luckily the oxygen was consumed so quickly that it did not continue to burn, and the open 20 litre can that was just next to the car did not go up!I put an extinguisher into the trunk to make sure there was no chance of it reigniting but I spent the weekend thinking about what could have happened if he'd been covered in burning petrol. Not ideal situation to compete in a shooting match; I was surprised to get 4th place.
	It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!