Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Reloading > Reloading .303 British
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - H4895
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

H4895

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Message
Honkytonk View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 30 2017
Location: Brandon Mb
Status: Offline
Points: 4770
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2019 at 7:06am
The reason I ask is when I receive and load those 174 Sierra Matchkings, I'm going to use a 3.05" OAL. I have a bunch of 174 PPU FMJ loaded with 36 gr H4895 with an OAL of 2.98". Worth the effort to put these to 3.05" with this lighter load?
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 17603
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2019 at 8:04am
The goal is to have just enough "jump" into the rifling leade that the bullet will separate from the case, but not have the ability to "tilt" in the slightest. Because of that OAL is a substitute measurement thats easy to measure & replicate from bullet to bullet type & weight.
What you are actually trying to do is have the part of the bullet's ogive that matches the land-to-land diameter exactly "xx" thou from the point of engagement. Then you measure the resulting OAL just because its easy to set up a seating die that way & measure it with a simple caliper.
Because of that bullet shape comes into play.
That's also why the Hornady tool has all those bushings, so you can measure from that diameter instead of the tip!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
Zed View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: May 01 2012
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 5585
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2019 at 9:26am
you can make you own tool very easily to check the length at which the ogive contacts the lands. Take an old empty fired case and drill out the primer hole. Then take an electrical domino connector, large enough to pass a length of brazing rod through. Put an ogive in the case so that it will slide quite easily. Push the case and ogive fully into the chamber with the brazing rod through the primer hole to then push the ogive fully forwards until it contacts the lands. Slide the domino down the brazing rod until it is flush with the rear of the case and tighten it onto the rod.
Remove the rod and extract the case. Then refit the rod and measure the bullet length with the domino holding the rod and ogive at the recorded length; then measure the length with your vernier caliper.

The problem with the boat tail bullet is the need to compromise between the amount of ogive in the case and the amount of jump.
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 6539
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2019 at 10:03am
HT, I would not bother with pulling the PPU bullets and reseating them in the loaded rounds you have.  The next loads you do, try 3.05 in. and see if it changes the groups. 
The boat tail bullets also result in less neck tension on the bullet than a flat based bullet of the same length, so there is also a compromise here with seating depth.  Sierra usually recommends one caliber (i.e. equivalent to the bullet diameter) of  seating depth in the neck, although a 3.07 OAL will not provide that much bullet grip in a .303 case neck.
 
 
 
Back to Top
Honkytonk View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 30 2017
Location: Brandon Mb
Status: Offline
Points: 4770
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2019 at 10:31am
I actually changed the OAL on about 75 174 PPU to 3.05". These are for my "range queens. L42A1 clone and Sniper clone.) I'm going to keep the remainder (about 75) at 2.98" and use in rifles I like to plink with at 50 yds. No5 and a No1 MkIII when I receive it. All are loaded with 36 gr of H4895.
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 17603
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2019 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

HT, I would not bother with pulling the PPU bullets and reseating them in the loaded rounds you have.  The next loads you do, try 3.05 in. and see if it changes the groups. 
The boat tail bullets also result in less neck tension on the bullet than a flat based bullet of the same length, so there is also a compromise here with seating depth.  Sierra usually recommends one caliber (i.e. equivalent to the bullet diameter) of  seating depth in the neck, although a 3.07 OAL will not provide that much bullet grip in a .303 case neck.
 
 
 

Sneaky!
(I like that)
The only thing I'd add is to get a 1/4" dowel to pop the bullet out of the leade again, ask me how I know!
Ouch
Slide it in through the muzzle & kind of push-pull to find the exact point of contact.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
philtno View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 04 2019
Location: Blenheim, NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 261
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2019 at 2:23pm
Hi,
Sorry to interfere with your discussion, guys... just want to share my (little) experience with the H4895 and the .303.
My own experience showed that, more than the actual loading, the diameter of the bullet and a proper bullet seating made HUGE difference in the grouping.  My 1943 Long Branch doesn't quite like the .311 bullets, apparently... I tried the S&B 150gn .311 and the Speer 150gn .311 and the results were really so-so...while, with the Hornady .312 and a proper COL (2.995) I reach very good groupings at 50m (1") repeatedly.  I treid with 38.5 gn of H4895 and 39.5 gn of H4895 and got similar groupings...just a bit higher on the target with the 39.5 gn.
Varget seems to work pretty well with the 174gn .312...but I haven't found the proper COL and the best load yet... Working on that ;)
Cheers
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 6539
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2019 at 3:26pm
I've been trying to encourage shooters on this forum to gage their barrel bores using pin gages.  It's possible that for oversize bores (say, larger than 0.304 in. diameter) .312 bullets will shoot considerably better than .311 bullets.  There may be a correlation, some value of bore diameter when the .311 bullet will begin to corkscrew down the barrel.  Groove diameters are typically .313 (and some may be larger) which could cause problems when combined with an oversized bore. 
 
I've never been able to show much change in group sizes by varying the bullet seating depth to within reasonable limits.  With the .311 174 grain Sierra MatchKing, I've seated the bullets to between 3.03 to 3.07 and even out to 3.10 (single shot feeding) and no appreciable change in group size.  I've settled on 3.05 to ensure reliable magazine feeding.
 
I've even shot the little Lapua .3105 diameter 123 grain bullets with decent results in my Long Branch and Savage No. 4.  These bullets are a LONG way off the throat!  The LB has a 0.3035 bore and the Savage a .3025 bore. 
 
 
Back to Top
philtno View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 04 2019
Location: Blenheim, NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 261
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2019 at 3:43pm
Thanks for the info ;)
3.100 is kind of long, isn't it? Did you have any pressure issues??
Up to now, I have mostly been learning from forums like this one but also from trials and errors when my old boy (the .303 LB, I mean) is concerned; and I understand that there might be significant variations in the chambers and the bores (war times standards, as i understand), so the best settings only exist for the rifle we own and shoot with...??
Cheers

Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 8792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2019 at 4:50pm
britrifles. 
I am going to take the rebarrelled Long Branch out Wednesday. I am going to shoot 40 rounds through it. Twenty rounds of Hornady .311 174 BTHP and twenty rounds of Hornady .308 168 ELD. The bore measurement at the muzzle is 0.3005. Both rounds will have equal powder charges of 40.0 grns of Norma 202 and primed with WLRM primers and both seated to a C.O.L. of 3.0750. I have shot the 168 grn .308 rounds out of different Savage and Long Branch rifles with two groove rifling for over thirty years now without a hitch.  An ancient competition rifle shooter had introduced me to this and said it would improve the accuracy of the Enfield rifle,as long as it was a two groove barrelled version. All I know with any amount of certainty is that he was and is correct. I will explain more in a few more days...
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 6539
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2019 at 7:31pm
Goosic,  .3005 bore is essentially a slightly worn .30 caliber barrel and it would probably be better shooting a .308 bullet.  I’d be a bit worried of pushing a .312 jacketed bullet thru that bore, but as long as the groove diameter is at least .312, it’s presumably within original manufacturing tolerances.  How does the breach end measure?

Years ago, No. 4 rifles were converted to 7.62 by cutting back the breach end and rechambering for .308 Winchester.  The literature suggests this worked fine as long as the barrel was not excessively worn and had a bore not much larger than .303 inch.  

Philtno, no pressure issues seating out past 3.07 inches, most barrels will have long throats. A 174 gr service bullet will not touch the lands on my LB even when seated out to just barely grip the bullet base in the case mouth.  And that was when the barrel was new.  There was no advantage to accuracy, at least not significant, in my testing.


Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 8792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2019 at 8:53pm
britrifles. 
Measuring the lands from breech to muzzle came out to 0.3005"
Measuring the grooves from breech to muzzle came out to 0.3109"
The chamber has been inspected by a company here called Wrights Armory and I was given the green light to install it and shoot stuff with it. This is a brand new,unissued early to mid 1940's No4Mk1* Long Branch rifle barrel that,until now,has never seen the light of day after it was packed in cosmoline and wrapped.
My bore gauge is digital and is exceptionally accurate.  The ancient  and long passed competition shooter I mentioned worked at the Savage plant and mentioned that the two groove rifling was a tad tighter then the five or six groove rifling and will grip a .308 diameter bullet,specifically the 168 grain bullet better and in competition it was observed that the 168 grain .308 round fired through a .303 two groove barrel was more accurate then a 174 MkVII round fired through the same barrel,even though there is only a 0.4000" gripping surface on the .308 as opposed to an almost 0.5970" gripping surface of the MkVII .303. The only thing I know to do is to show you what I am explaining. From a regular,battle type shooting perspective,it is of no concern to the every day Joe Schmoe.  It is  when you are in a competitive environment where things like accuracy become noticeable. 

Post Script: all my 174 grain factory ammunition have a working diameter of 0.3095 whereas all my 168 grain ELD bullets have a working diameter of 0.3055

Back to Top
philtno View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 04 2019
Location: Blenheim, NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 261
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philtno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2019 at 8:54pm
Britrifles,
Thanks for the info ;)
Cheers
Back to Top
Pukka Bundook View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 02 2015
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1369
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2019 at 5:57am
Goosic,
 
This is all V interesting information.
 
Thank you!
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 6539
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2019 at 6:16pm
Goosic, interesting information.  I think only Savage and Long Branch made two groove barrels.  They must have had a different standard of bore and groove dimensions, perhaps they were concerned with sufficient grip to spin the bullet with only two grooves.  

I would certainly try the .308 bullets, and if they shoot good, use a neck sizing die for a .308 to size the cases.  It will be interesting to read your shooting results, I predict 1/3 to 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups out of your rebuilt Long Branch.


Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.