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Squarehead87
Newbie Joined: July 22 2019 Location: West midlands Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Posted: July 24 2019 at 2:22am |
I've had this old bayonet for some time and was just trying to find out what sort of bayonet it actually is. I've tried searching etc but i'm not very good when it comes to these sort of things. And was hoping someone would be able to point me in the right direction. |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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can do better than steer you - i can tell you that you have an 'enfield' 1888 mk I second type that has been re-arsenaled to replace the scale rivets with mk II fastening , [it is missing the clearing hole]
or which makes it a 'volunteer pattern' because the wilkinson and greeners were made that way for these , the original mk I had three fasteners and the second type had two fasteners with a prominent dimple of the rivet in the face of these , the first and second type had no clearing hole its a nice original combination bayonet and mk I type scabbard that shows their age slightly - looks to be march 1897 but my old eyes cannot see the markings well enough on my old computer to tell all you might get from them , someone else will help with that im sure , it is marked with the WD and the broad arrow so it did service ,
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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I see a P1888 Mk.I Second type also. But I can see the drain holes in the scales for the clearing rod hole. The rivets look to be correct.
Dated March 1897, there is no contractor name marked (Wilkinson, Sanderson, Mole), which would suggest thatthis one was made in house at RSAF Enfield in their bayonet shop. The markings on the pommel can be researched to determine to whom this was on issue during its service. T / 6 RH / 747 tells me that a Territorial unit 6th Royal Highlanders? Royal Hussars? Stand number 747. Or is the marking RHI (Royal highland Infantry)? or is it RHF (Royal Hiighland Fusiliers)? Well worth researching. Try to resist the urge to 'clean it up' too much. It has taken a long time form that patina to form. The scabbards are worth almost as much as the bayonets these days. they are getting smaller in number, the leather deteriorates, the staples give out, stitching wears and the scabbards fall apart.
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. Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
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Squarehead87
Newbie Joined: July 22 2019 Location: West midlands Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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wow thats crazy that you all know so much about it! thank you so much, any idea value for insurance reasons?
thank you guys
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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Lots of them came over in 1896, still lots kicking around although the really nice ones are getting harder to find. Scabbards on the loose are snapped up.
A half decent P88 bayonet with scabbard would run you $200-250 in Canada.
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. Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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i agree with simon's assessment of value - but market dictates always takes a willing seller and buyer , yet that is what i would use for insurance purposes ,
simon , are you seeing more photo than i am ? i do not see the clearing hole - my old eyes and old computer do not always give me all that is possible to see , as to the rivets - i thought the dimpled were the original , but then ive been away from all this for some time , the smooth are far more to liking and far more common , i agree 100% on that scabbard , we seldom see those in that nice condition these days
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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The clearance hole for the clearing rod has a drain hole in the wood scales, not in the metal of the pommel.
The drain hole appears to be bunged up with crud, but it is there, both sides. I can see the hole right behind the rear rivets. The dimpled rivets? I note that there are variations with contractor. Many bayo handles are worn or have been sanded a touch, the rivets appear to be smoothed. I can't say much about the riveting as it isnt something that I have studied. But it is interesting.
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. Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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ok - i am seeing that hole by the rivet - it does not show well in the photos i am seeing but it is definitely there - i thought that a bugger mark from use and refit but i see it ,
the rivets i speak of are the ones that are peened end of the rivet through the washers , the ends are slightly pronounced beyond the face of the brass washer , i may be knit picking here but i think if you look at page 170 of the skennerton 'british & commonwealth bayonets' - the photos show them , or page 55 of janzens 'bayonets -the sketch shows them , perhaps a pip or pimple rather than a dimple , i may have chosen my words poorly in that post , these were the early ones - the smooth are later and refurbs , they are similar to the rear handguard rivets you are familiar with on the mkI series
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Bear43
Special Member Donating Member Joined: August 11 2010 Location: Doland, SD Status: Offline Points: 3059 |
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Around here and on many other forums you will find members that have a cache of knowledge that is amazing. Many of us have certain areas we have concentrated on, mine being Mk I*** and Maltby No 4 rifles, but there is a wealth of knowledge available here and all you have to do is ask. I am always amazed at the "Bayonet Boys" that have all this knowledge on this edged accessory.
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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you ever research your bear ?
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terrylee
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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Some further information. The various marks of the Pat. 1888. Top to bottom: Mk I Mk I, 2nd Model. Mk.II Mk.III South African WW II Manufacture. |
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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An outstanding collection of blades, Terrylee!
My quest continues for a Mk.I with the three rivets, none came over to canada with the batch of 40,000 rifles in 1896, just Mk.I second type as far as I know.
Apparently, there is yet another variation, of which I am not familiar, right now on ebay. Made in Afghanistan bearing the "Cipher of the Afghan state armoury in Mazar-e-Sherif" Healthy price tag, but it does have free shipping! Blade is 3-1/2 inches longer. I wonder why the need to manufacture? Having a longer blade, I wonder if it was for use on Martini carbines??
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. Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
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terrylee
Senior Member Joined: December 30 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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Afghanistan, ebay, price?? Can't but help thinking that it may have been recently made for the modern collector! Under the circumstances, I'll be giving it a miss.
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englishman_ca
Senior Member Joined: September 08 2009 Location: Almaguin Status: Offline Points: 1089 |
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Currently $1775 Cdn.
Pictures shamelessly ripped from the ebay listing. It looks legit, but I have no idea about the story. The listing description;- This rare bayonet is a good example of an Afghan manufactured version of the British 1888 Pattern knife bayonet. Probably produced in somewhere between 1890-1920s. The matching scabbards are even scarcer than the bayonet itself. The right ricasso bears the official cipher of the Afghan state armoury in Mazar-e-Sherif used in the 1920s. It would not, therefore, be unreasonable to estimate that this item was manufactured sometime after the 3rd Anglo-Afghan War (1919). As a note of interest, the Afghan state arsenals were producing Martini-Henry rifles into the 1930s! These bayonets are quite distinct from the British 1888 Patterns due to the noticeably longer blade (+ 3 ¼ in), ¼” shorter handle, more squared off pommel and the strong relief along the centre of the blade. See the last picture for a comparison of the regulation 1888 bayonet (not included) and Afghan 1888. Serial number on the pommel stamped with arabic numberals; translates to 4533 |
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. Look to your front, mark your target when it comes! |
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A square 10
Special Member Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 14452 |
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huh - never saw one from SA or afganistan , but i too have sought out the mkI , you just dont see them often ,
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Zed
Special Member Donating Member Joined: May 01 2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 5585 |
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Great collection you have there TerryLee. Interesting piece from Afghanistan; bit rich for me though!
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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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