Enfield-Rifles.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Enfields > Enfield Rifles
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - History on the Dutch Lee Enfield Rifles
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

History on the Dutch Lee Enfield Rifles

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
jhonelver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 15 2021
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 132
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: History on the Dutch Lee Enfield Rifles
    Posted: June 02 2021 at 8:45am
Some of you seemed to like my post about the Dutch No.4 Sniper rifle.
Which i am still researching and will keep you guys updated on that research in that topic.

Here i wanted to give you guys more information on the Dutch Lee Enfield rifles, the weird things we did to them. and just general history on how we got them. If you guys want to know more please let me know and i will keep posting information in this topic. I have information, documents and objects that were made or used in the Netherlands about/for the Lee Enfield. (like inspection tools/ spare parts/ Dutch scopes etc.)

Here is just the beginning of the Dutch and their Lee enfield rifle. if you want more let me know.
------------------


The use of Lee Enfield rifles by Dutch forces start in WW2. after the germans invaded the Netherlands on 10 may 1940, (what we call the may days of 1940) and the dutch surrender on 15 may 1940.

But this was not the end. The dutch army had one fighting force in Europe and one in the pacific (Dutch Indies which i won't talk about). after the occupation of the Netherlands the Dutch merchant marine, Navy, Airforce and army made their way to England.

This is where this story begins.

The Dutch army now in England formed different groups and squadrons that joined the fight alongside the British. Also the Famous "Princess Irene Brigade" who landed 6 august 1944 in Normandy and fought in operation Market Garden.

These soldiers needed weapons, which were supplied by the British. The Dutch army in exile (london) started printing instruction manual in Dutch for these soldiers. (picture)


The rifle was called "Rifle 7,7mm Lee Enfield model of 1942". 

this is because the Dutch already had a Carbine called "Karabijn No.4" this was a carbine version of the Dutch mannlicher M95 bolt action rifle in 6.5x53mmR. some of these carbines were later changed to 303 British because 6.5mm was harder to get then 303 British.

And why 1942 you might ask. well that is when it got introduced (it seems like). they had to put a number on it. (weird Dutch ways i think).

But after WW2 the Dutch Needed to be rearmed. There were multiple programmes and in the end the Dutch received weapons from the UK, Canada, US and left over German rifles.

The dutch really had everything, from MG43, No.4, M1 Garand, 30m1 carbine, Mauser K98k, Bren, Sten, BAR, Browning M2 etc. etc.

But it didn't take long before the Dutch started manufacturing things themselves again. The Dutch started with spare parts. so the spare parts for the Lee Enfield were produced in the Netherlands.

This all happened at the factory Artillerie Inrichtingen. i hope all of you guys heard of this factory because with a little pride i can say that the predecessor of the M16/M4 rifles came from this factory. The AR-10. (start production; 4 july 1957, 5 year license)



Artillerie Inrichtingen had a couple of different factories in Netherlands (above is Zaandam). with all different functions. from ammunition and rifles to scopes and artillery were build, maintained and tested here. 

Here are some known spare parts:

they are marked as their logo:


Bolt Heads (nr3)  AI marked their parts and rifles with the letter I in the Letter A as seen below.



Stock set.



All these parts have the AI mark. which is really nice, because these are really rare. 









    









Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Olddust View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: April 23 2021
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 52
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Olddust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 9:59am
very interesting ! 
Back to Top
Shamu View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Logo Designer / Donating Member

Joined: April 25 2007
Location: MD, USA.
Status: Offline
Points: 13975
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 10:14am
Interesting!
This may be new to you but the Ditch made AR 10's fetch a hefty premium price here in the U.S. they're known as the Indonesian AR-10.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
Back to Top
jhonelver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 15 2021
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 132
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Interesting!
This may be new to you but the Ditch made AR 10's fetch a hefty premium price here in the U.S. they're known as the Indonesian AR-10.

I know AR10 rifle are really expensive. especially here in the Netherlands. if it is stamped AI like picture below. depending on the condition and model they can be between 1600,- en 3500,- euro's. But if they are special models well, the sky is the limit.

Just like that strange M1 rifle the Dutch made. https://www.forgottenweapons.com/dutch-m1-with-ar-10-magazines/   they managed to get AR10 magazine in an M1 garand and change the caliber to 7.62 nato. i am astonished what they managed to do back then.

Back to Top
Zed View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: May 01 2012
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 4580
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 12:38pm
Thank you for posting!
 The Dutch Lee Enfield history is interesting and was totally unknown to me.
It's great to learn something new!
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
Back to Top
A square 10 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member

Donating Member

Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 12172
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 7:09pm
this is very enlightening , learned a lot i did not know 
Back to Top
Twodogs View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: December 05 2018
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 84
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Twodogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 12:18am
Very interesting, a whole aspect of Enfield history I never knew existed, every day is a school day/ Keep it coming.
Thank you
Back to Top
jhonelver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 15 2021
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 132
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 2:59am
Thank you guys for your response.

I will write a little more later today.
About dutch AI 303 cartridge and testing.
And a really really special (weird) dutch lee enfield no.4 Mk.I sight.


And i have good and bad news.
I am invited by the Dutch National Military Museum to studie their enfield rifles and documentations about the lee enfield.
But the Dutch No.4 Mk.I K sniper rifle cannot be studied because it is in the display collection and will be there for a lobg time. They wont take it from display for studying. So we will have to wait. But i can see the rifle. But not hold itWink
Back to Top
britrifles View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2018
Location: Atlanta, GA
Status: Offline
Points: 3264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 4:41am
I’m looking forward to the results of your research.  It seems to be an untold story.  

I knew many Canadian Army veterans who fought all thru Holland during the War.  The Reserve regiment I belonged to in Canada fought in Holland.  Numerous Dutch families in our area moved to Canada after the war.  If you visit Ottawa in the spring you will see thousands of Tulips in bloom; a gift from the Dutch for Canada’s service to freeing them from the Germans.  

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Dutch ended up with a lot of Long Branch made No. 4 rifles.  



Back to Top
jhonelver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 15 2021
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 132
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 8:49am
Here is the second part of this story.

First i give you a Dutch AI replacement sight. you can see the AI logo really well.





Besides replacement parts, the AI factory also made ammunition.
Below are 303 british rounds (BALL , VII) from 1960. I use this ammo when i go to the range.



And here an army crate with 1440 .303 british rounds. these crates came from AI and were send to the Dutch army. (this crate is from 1961 and sold yesterday for 800,- euros still sealed with 1440 rounds still in it)



These 303 cartridges are plenty here in the Netherlands, they were manufactured for the Dutch army. and some were sold to other countries that wanted to use them.
But besides just making some ammunition, AI did a lot of testing and experimenting with ammunition.
They had some special rifles for that purpose.

Like this K98k action with thick barrel for safe firing test ammunition.
these rifles were in different calibers like 5.56, 30-06, .303, 8x57,    etc. etc. 

most of these rifles were with an Mauser K98k action. But of the 303 they used an Enfield.



This Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.I is in my personal collection.
This is the Ammunition test rifle used by AI. (it has multiple AI stamped parts).



These rifles were put on a specially made stand so they could fire these rifles from a safe distance.
i have seen multiple of these rifles but only 1 Enfield. 
one mauser even had a magnetic lock on the striker to keep it in place. then the magnet was attached to a computer so they could fire the rifle from a safe distance with unlocking the magnet.

these rifles had different purposes like: measuring bullet velocity, pressure, temperature etc.

This rifle started its life as an Normal No.4 Mk.I (1942 maltby)


The barrel was probably done in Belgium, by the looks of these Belgium test and acceptance stamps.


Here is an AI bolt head number 2 (i have 2 Number 3 boltheads of AI asswell)


Here an AI cocking piece. it sounds logical because those are the parts that wear when test firing this rifle.




That is enough for ammunition and testing ammunition.

But now something special.
Some dutch person thought it would be a splendid idea to get an open sight in a No.4 Mk.I rifle.
yes, sights like on the No.1 Mk.III. but then a little different. they did it the Dutch way.
This photo was send to me by the Dutch National Military Museum.

I present to you guys.
A Dutch No.4 Mk.I with a sight that should have never been on this rifle. This sight is from a Dutch Mannlicher M95 rifle. (and yes the original sight is still on it) Wacko



I will look into this rifle asswell. because it looks awesome. (not really).




I hope you guys liked this.
I will make more updates. Next is the training manual, inspection tools, and rifle grenade. (all Dutch and in my collection).








Back to Top
Bear43 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: August 11 2010
Location: Doland, SD
Status: Offline
Points: 2953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 10:38am
Could you do me a huge favor? I would love to see pictures of the all markings on that Maltby receiver.
Back to Top
jhonelver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 15 2021
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 132
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Bear43 Bear43 wrote:

Could you do me a huge favor? I would love to see pictures of the all markings on that Maltby receiver.

Yes, i will, but what do you need it for?
I will take the pictures later today or tomorrow.

Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 5792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:06am
Originally posted by jhonelver jhonelver wrote:

Originally posted by Bear43 Bear43 wrote:

Could you do me a huge favor? I would love to see pictures of the all markings on that Maltby receiver.

Yes, i will, but what do you need it for?
I will take the pictures later today or tomorrow.

Bear43 is documenting all the tiny circles with numbers inside that are stamped on Maltby recievers. These stamps are specific to the Maltby rifle...
Back to Top
jhonelver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 15 2021
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 132
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:18am
These stamps you mean?

here are 4 photos from different angles.












Back to Top
Goosic View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2017
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 5792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:24am
Yes. They are specific to the Maltby.  Bear43 in writing a book about Maltby rifles and any and all information including photos of those stamps will help...
Back to Top
Bear43 View Drop Down
Special Member
Special Member
Avatar
Donating Member

Joined: August 11 2010
Location: Doland, SD
Status: Offline
Points: 2953
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:58am
Yes, those are Maltby inspection stamps. There are also a series of letters and/or numbers on the bottom of the wrist, covered by the trigger guard. Those markings are also unique to Maltby.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.