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Ishapore 2A1 questions

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    Posted: August 25 2016 at 7:49pm
I'm thinking about trading into a 1967 Ishapore 2A1... comes with sling,bayonet and a few rounds of ammo.
The bayonet does not match the rifle, he got it off of ebay after he got the rifle, I guess.
Are there any particulars to look out for in these rifles? Years to avoid, signs of abuse, excessive wear etc to watch for?
The markings on the bayonet are pretty worn, and it looks like it was painted green at one time. It doesn't have a scabbard.I don't know much about bayonets, I'm guessing this is a 1907 pattern? Other than that I haven't a clue what the few markings I can read mean...

The rifle looks to be in decent shape, a pretty typical specimen, I think. Numbers match, bore seems decent. Better than my No.4, anyway.

Another question I have is, what's the real scoop about shooting 308 Win out of one of these? I've seen/heard/read opinions on both sides of the fence... some folks say don't do it, never never,not ever, and others say that's all they've ever used in theirs, with no noticeable effects. I understand the fact that the chamber is a bit larger on the 7.62 military side, but what does that really mean to someone who doesn't shoot 100's of rounds in a session,and who is just getting into small scale reloading? (Lee hand press, etc.)
Here are some pics...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2016 at 8:02pm
what i know is the 2A1 has the calibrated sights - for military 762x51 , as to shooting 308 you will need to wait for the educated to step in , 

i had this and a 2A as well as an indian 303 and the 410 conversions in a past life time period , all performed well , i had no complaints of any of them , 
the bayonets are a whole nuthr story that would take a good bit of research and time , they purpose made them , the converted others - shortened , scrubbed , remarked , refurbished , if your looking for collectibles thats one thing what you have is correct and adequate , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2016 at 1:28am
303 conversions to 308 are ok IF you use lower pressured homeloads. You'll find the factory ammo goes way over pressure for the enfield reciever to cope with by something like 5000psi and eventually there'll be an accident.  Bisley the mecca for enfield shooters over here in the UK (to my knowledge) have banned 308 comercial ammo in converted 303s. A few years ago we had a guy on here who insisted it was safe to use comercial 308 in 303 conversions, he got so stroppy, abusive and adamant he was right I eventually booted him for safeties sake before somebody who didn't know any better ended up in hospital or worse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1187Shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 29 2016 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Tony Tony wrote:

303 conversions to 308 are ok IF you use lower pressured homeloads. You'll find the factory ammo goes way over pressure for the enfield reciever to cope with by something like 5000psi and eventually there'll be an accident.  Bisley the mecca for enfield shooters over here in the UK (to my knowledge) have banned 308 comercial ammo in converted 303s. A few years ago we had a guy on here who insisted it was safe to use comercial 308 in 303 conversions, he got so stroppy, abusive and adamant he was right I eventually booted him for safeties sake before somebody who didn't know any better ended up in hospital or worse.
 
This is the reason for my questions... as I understood it, the Ishapore rifles were redesigned for the 7.62 NATO cartridge, with better metallurgy etc. in order to withstand the higher pressure. I get that the converted .303 rifles would be less than ideal for running high volumes of .308 or 7.62 through, but then, on the other hand, a converted .308 would have a standard spec .308 chamber....
My question is concerning the difference between shooting standard 7.62x51 NATO ball ammo vs. commercial 308 Winchester hunting loads in the 7.62 military spec chambers. According to the SAAMI charts, from what I can tell, the actual pressures are pretty close if not the same, but the issue as I understand it is the larger chamber dimensions of the 7.62 Vs. standard 308 creates the hazard, not a difference in pressures between the two...
But I am unclear as to what that means to me, exactly. Would it matter so much to a shooter who is not reloading, and therefore only shooting any one particular cartridge a single time, never to be used again, as opposed to a reloader who is recycling brass over and over, eventually to fail due to excess stresses from constant resizing. I know brass doesn't last forever, but I'm guessing this would seriously reduce the life expectancy, depending on wall thickness etc. 
Is there really a physical difference in the case between .308 Win and 7.62 NATO?
Not sure if it really is going to matter this time around anyways, since I'm not sure I'm going to go through with this particular trade... still might pick one up later on though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 30 2016 at 12:42pm
One of my Enfield's is also 7,62 NATO. 
When I bought it I tested some .308 rounds through a Chronograph to compare to 7,62 NATO spec.
Velocities of the .308 are well above the NATO rounds; in the region of 300 feet per second depending on the type. Obviously it's not a good idea in view of the extra pressure being created get those speeds. 

However for reloading, I use components for .308 win,(plenty of choice) but load for NATO speeds of around 2700 ft/sec with 155 grain Sierra's. The components load and shoot well
I also tried some Lithuanian surplus 7,62 recently and it was very good value.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1187Shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2016 at 6:06am
How do your cases hold up after repeated use?
Is your Enfield a true (Ishapore etc.) 7.62 rifle or was it a converted .303?
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2016 at 9:02am
My Ishapore is a true Ishapore and the case hold up very well as long as I trim the and only shoot them in that Ishapore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2016 at 11:47am
My 7,62 is an L39a1, so I suspect the chamber is probably tighter than the Ishapore. But if you are using the brass in just one rifle, as Paddy has said. Should not be a problem.
I still have several rounds of the factory .308 ammo that I tested. Having seen the velocity of some of it; I will not be using it in my Lee Enfield. Despite the fact that some of the L39's in the UK have been re-proofed to 20 Tons per square inch, instead of the original 19 tons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1187Shooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2016 at 10:32am
That's good to know. I have a 30-06 for big game hunting, and I don't hunt at ranges much over 200 yards anyways, so keeping the loads down to 7.62 levels is no problem. I've got some other references concerning case sizing and trimming when reloading .303 British, and I would think that similar procedures would apply here. 
I also don't anticipate picking up more than one rifle in either chambering, so that would remove that particular part of the equation.
Thanks for the help... I'll always take any I can get.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote locosmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2017 at 11:06am
It's not the chamber you have to worry about. The ishy 7.62 was a redesigned piece. the commercial 308 has higher pressures then the 7.62 or the 303. The 308 up to and a little over 50000 cup, the 7.62 around 44000, this is + or - so the true 7.62 will shoot 7.62 x 51 nato no problems. the metal was changed for the 7.62. a 308 is commercial ammo loaded for higher pressure, they tried to make it compete with the 30 06, so don't shoot 308 in it. Then for sure no problems. Load your own and look at a loading manual and look up 308, 7.62 nato and you can see the difference. there are several sites on the net to look at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waldschrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2019 at 3:16am
*cough* *cough*

.....a bit dusty in here! 

My question beeing new to this topic. What would happen if you shout 308 over a longer period from your ishapore 2A1? 
As I understand, the rifles get tested with higher pressure before beeing allowed to sell. So I dont think it will explode, right? 

So far i used surpluss ammo wich is stamped with 308 on the cartridge, but the plan is to try remington match ammo. 

Edit:
After another inspection of my rifle I found a stamp 308 on the chamber. So....how wrong can it be??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2019 at 1:39pm
I picked up a 2A a year ago.  Researching comments before shooting, there did not appear to be any issues with western 7.62 or .308 as the 2A was built for the higher pressures.  The one warning that was in several discussions was not to use steel cased ammo as the more generous dimensions of the 2A may lead to splits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2019 at 7:22pm
I wonder if there are any recorded action failures from shooting .308 commercial ammunition in either converted No. 4 rifles or 2A rifles.  Think of the Bloke on the Range shooting oiled .300 Win Magnum in a reamed out chamber in a converted No. 4 rifle.  

If you have the ability to handload, I recommend using the minimum powder charge weights in published .308 load data.  Especially important keep the chamber degreased and dry if you choose to push velocities up.

I don’t intend on shooting any commercial .308 in either of my converted No. 4 rifles.  I have shot 7.62 NATO ammunition, the pressures and velocities seem to blow the groups out a bit, better accuracy can be had with reduced pressure loads more in line with the .303.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2019 at 10:35am
I have tested a few .308 factory rounds through the chronometer from my L39.
Comparing to the 7.62 NATO surplus spec; you can be running 300 feet per second faster with the .308
One of the Match rounds I tested was close to 3,000 ft/second. I reload using .308 components (155 grain SMK bullets) and look for around 2600 ft/second. It's easier on the shoulder as well as the rifle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2019 at 11:33am
Some of the early Brit .308 match conversions had a problem. Never a rifle built as a .308 though just the converted .303's.
IIRC they were all cadet rifles & there were only 2 or 3 of them total, but it started off the scare & for a while they were even banned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2019 at 2:53pm
Shamu, do you know if those cadet converted No 4's were firing .308 or 7.62? 
 
I agree with Zed, why take a risk with shooting .308; or 7.62 for that matter; especially if you reload.  These rifles are not getting younger, neither are we.  If you are just shooting for enjoyment or even for vintage matches, there is no downside to light loads.  But what ever you do, don't just guess on the powder charges, and don't go below minimum unless you really know what you are doing, that can cause a powder flashover and very high pressures for some powders (H4895 works well for "light" loads).   
 
My 7.62 load for my No. 4 conversion is a 168 gr HPBT bullet at about 2400 fps (40.0 gr. Varget).  Pressure should be under 45,000 psi.
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