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It has no history?!?! |
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baltimoreed ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: May 21 2021 Location: Aurora, NC Status: Offline Points: 107 |
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Everything has a history, even something that was just made. Nowadays everyone want their genealogy researched so they ‘know’ who they are. Every one of our firearms has a genealogy and maybe a provenance. It’s still a history, might not be an exciting one but it’s one. I have 2 revolvers that have connections to officers in the 1st World War, a Colt NS and a Webley Wilkinson 1900 Self Ejector.
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‘Give’em he!!, Pike’
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Goosic ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8170 |
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You pretty much nailed it with, "Everything has history, even something that was just made" baltimoreed. The start of this thread and what it concerns comes from the viewpoint of the person who supports the concept that a rifle, specifically an Enfield rifle, has no history if it never saw actual combat and killed a few people. To paraphrase, this person, "would rather own a rifle that is way past its prime and basically unusable than own a rifle that was stored away in a closet and never used in combat" because in his mind, " where is the history" of that rifle?
As I have stated. History is what you make of it. I know of a family member that owns a Parker Hale Custom No4. I know that the family members father gifted her the rifle. I also know that sometime in late 1970, that family members father took the second largest mule deer by the Boone and Crockett scoring with it in the state of Arizona and that mounted deer head can be seen currently in another family members domicile. Did that rifle ever see actual combat? Nope. Parker Hale purchased the remaining stock still in the white from Fazakerley. The only known "incident" involving that Custom No4 was when the original owner fell into a raveen while holding it and never letting go of it on his way down the mountain side. It sustained one tiny scratch on the rosewood end cap. The owner sustained many scratches and cuts with one cut needing to be stitched closed. Absolute history...
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Shamu ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 16520 |
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I'm in agreement with both of you. Besides the Venerable 1914 Beezer ShtLE I have both a mint Lithgow SMLE, No1 MkIII* & a mint No4 Mk2 which is absolutely box stock. Then I have the No4 Mk2 I made into my long range rifle, also a mint unwrapped mummy. It has had all
sorts of things added & changed because of the purpose I got it
for, replacing one I was required to surrender when moving from the U.K.
to the USA. The Lithy has had a "Central" target sight added & the front sight raised to allow zero with the target iris & its German dioptric eyepiece, I am now a part of both their histories. History doesn't "stop" at some arbitrary time, it continues for ever. It continued with all those DE-Mobbed Milsurps that shot thousand yard targets at Bisley & New Passage & many other places. ![]() |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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shiloh ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 08 2019 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 1926 |
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I have an early 1941 BSA all complete, looks like it saw service and being of that date probably did, So I guess that`s war use history. Can it be proven probably not. Seems the issue records no longer remain, either at army or unit level. I`d like to think my BSA was never used to kill another human, will never know for sure. I once had an all original No1 mkIII, it had seven notches on the butt stock, human kills or successful, deer hunts who knows, maybe the first??, but if it was the first, that would be destruction of the Kings equipment, a chargeable offense.... so probably not. But we`re all right, everything has history known or unknown, and with Lee Enfield rifles its all anecdotal, by this point in time.
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shoot em if you got em
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Goosic ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8170 |
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Shamu. Your comment that, "History doesn't stop at some arbitrary time, it continues forever" is a perfect example of why the person I referred to at the start of this thread that made the comment about a rifle NOT having any history if it never saw any actual combat does not understand what history actually means and how it works.
I could care less if an Enfield rifle saw any actual "combat". I care more about how that rifle came to be and what it took to get it there. My Savage No4Mk1* was just a barreled action when I found it. I know that it was made in North America at the Savage Steven's Chicopee Falls facility and I know it was made in 1943. It has no import stamps or markings on it so i can only assume that it never left the United States. I made it look identical in every aspect to that of a No4Mk1 T and I did not like what I saw of it. I was lucky enough to find an unused 7.62mm barrel for it along with an unused aftermarket stockset as well. It now is a Custom No4Mk1* chambered for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. The history of the rifle is still there, beginning with what it started out as and continuing on to what it is now. The history of the rifle will continue until it ceases to exist physically. I know the beginnings and the now of my rifle. What happened to it between those two times is lost to history with the key word "history." Frenchie was assembled specifically to assist the French Resistance but was captured and then sequestered into a storage facility were it remained for 75 years. It, along with a few thousand more rifles were liberated from those storage areas in France recently and ended up in West Virginia of all places. It currently resides in the Metropolitan Phoenix area. Explained that to the person I referred to originally and was replied to with. Yeah, but did it kill anyone? Because if it didn't then whats the point of having it? There's no history in it so why own it? This person is not someone who understands history in any given format. I own a 608 page book dedicated to the "History" of the Lee-Enfield rifle and it does give reference to conflicts the rifle was engaged in but that's about it in that context...
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Honkytonk ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4613 |
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Just a thought. "History is made every day."
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Goosic ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8170 |
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shiloh. It is not about, "what it possibly did" but rather, "where it possibly went" that intrigues me the most in that aspect of the rifles history. One very small item that has eluded me in its original condition is the cardboard silencer that fits between the stock bolthead and the oiler. When I flicked the buttplate cap open and that cardboard piece was staring at me, I made a laugh that I cannot duplicate. That cardboard silencer is every bit apart of the history of that rifle and makes it that much more for me.
My rifle has a magazine release intended for a No1Mk111/* instead of the blocky and serrated No4 variant. Why? I don't know. I know it adds to the history of the rifle as does the front and rear sights which came from the Fazakerley Factory instead of its own Maltby Factory...
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britrifles ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Atlanta, GA Status: Offline Points: 5591 |
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I understand why collectors covet original rifles that have not been modified or rebuilt at military arsenals or by private individuals. Those that are in the condition as they left the factory being the most valuable. I’d bet those unissued No. 4 rifles that came out of France will quickly rise in value.
I don’t understand the interest in knowing if a particular rifle killed someone. Besides, it’s not the rifle that kills, it’s the person pulling the trigger. These rifles were issued during WWII in the millions for the purpose of wounding or killing the enemy and the LE was exceedingly effective.
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Goosic ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8170 |
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Exactly HT! I honestly believe that if it was not for James Paris Lee and his ambition to create a self loading repeating rifle, there in fact would be no Lee-Enfield rifle history at all...
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Honkytonk ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 30 2017 Location: Brandon Mb Status: Offline Points: 4613 |
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My feeling is that if a combat rifle has been used in action and inflicted a KIA or WIA, the soldier that pulled the trigger owns that rifles history forever... That being said, I respect other opinions on the matter. To each his own...
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Goosic ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8170 |
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Geoff. Since owning my Maltby, I have been watching recent sales and in roughly a six month time frame, the prices have gone from an average price of $995.00 to a current and last known sale price of $2155.00.
I purchased mine for $1100.00. There where others there for $1300 and $1400 but it was not about the price as to why I bought the one I did. It was the only one with a short buttstock and a slightly obscure web sling that was made by M.W.& S Ltd/Michael White & Sons Limited 1944...
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A square 10 ![]() Special Member ![]() ![]() Donating Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: MN , USA Status: Offline Points: 13701 |
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they all have history unless they were never made - it may be obscured by those that were its caretakers over the years and it may have a lot of transplant parts from other rifles [with history] that either were willing donors or not , done by professionals or novice butchers , who knows but we might actually say it has more history than most
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Goosic ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8170 |
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Honkytonk. I very well like the fact that my rifle was never used in combat. I also like knowing that it had only ever been test fired before it left the Maltby Factory. I have owned my rifle for just over nine months now but since I have researched the history of every known dispersal code on the rifle and have read about Operation Carpetbagger, it is as if I have owned this rifle for a lifetime... ![]() |
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Sapper740 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2021 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 197 |
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Recently, the focus of my collecting has been civilian target rifle versions of the various marks of Lee Enfield battle rifles. Why? The answer is simple: these rifles are in near pristine condition as they avoided rough handling in service and were almost always 'babied' when handled. No glorious tales of "over the top!" or "kill the Hun!" or "get that Boer b*****d!" possible with these rifles but if you want to see what a rifle looked like when it left the factory a century or more ago this is the way to do it. Further, these rifles have a different aspect from service rifles such as stamps that won't be seen otherwise. I have a near mint No.1 MkIII that was regulated by Fulton and Son of Bisley and sports a PH5A sight, a M.L.E. MkI* that was built in England by BSA, sold to a civilian target shooter in New Zealand, taken on strength by the New Zealand government, sold out of service, rebarreled by Lithgow, and then ends up in The U.S., and lastly a C.L.L.E. with the rare "Twin Zero" sight installed. All are excellent shooters and in near mint condition.
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Goosic ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 12 2017 Location: Phoenix Arizona Status: Offline Points: 8170 |
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I am positive that I have said this before about my rifle but it bears repeating. When I removed every screw and each individual part to clean off the 75 years of accumulated dust, it was just like opening a time capsule. The rifle looked just like it did when it left the factory. Other than the Maltby Boffin who test fired the rifle, I am the only person to actually use it as it was intended, except my "target of opportunity" was just paper. It still has that "Factory" smell. History...
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Shamu ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() Logo Designer / Donating Member Joined: April 25 2007 Location: MD, USA. Status: Offline Points: 16520 |
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I don't believe in mechanical devices having any sense of right or wrong, nor do I believe that they're somehow "Imprinted" with past actions done by others. It is what it is a tool, just like a hammer or screwdriver. It has no "soul" or "memory". That's just me YMMV though.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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