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Magazine Cut off - 1907 SMLE

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sc-em Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 1:44pm
Of course I had forgotten about Edward.
A close up of photos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 1:48pm
OK that's an inspectors mark, not a cypher.
Basically "passed inspection by inspector XX"
the big crown on the stock wrist is the real clue.

KIng George V
1914
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sc-em Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 1:51pm
Getting a bit complicated for me with my limited knowledge. So the ER is a proof not cypher meaning?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 2:26pm
Crown over ER (Edward Rex) over crossed pennants over E is the military proof mark applied at the Enfield factory.

The crown over 95 over E is an Enfield inspection mark that was applied along with the proof as witnessed by inspector #95.

The crown on the wrist as Shamu shows, is a 'king's crown' otherwise known as the Tudor crown and is used by male monarchs (Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, George VI)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sc-em Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 2:32pm
Right. That is making some sort of sense. So with the combination of the all the numbers etc. What does it actually tell me about my gun that will allow me to comment accurately on what I have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote englishman_ca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 2:48pm
It tells a story in that you have a 1907 Sht.LE Mk.III.

It was produced while King Edward VII was on the throne, and so marked.

The markings are consistent with this and are what we would expect to see.

It is a genuine Lee Enfield as opposed to the Khyber Pass made fakes being imported with wierd and wonderful markings. For example, a Victorian cipher with a 1905 date would be a dead give away. 

But all your markings that we have seen appear to jive with each other. All good.

Once we have determined what the original rifle would have looked like when it left the factory, we can review its current form and with a little detective work, maybe figure out what has been changed, when, by whom, where and why. Much can be revealed by many of the little inspection marks and date codes, contractor or factory marks. Sometimes a rifle can read like a book and give clues to where it has been and who used it and in what conflicts.

That is one main reason that we keep asking for pictures of any markings and views of certain areas to see what version of parts are fitted. That is where I sometimes find sad stories where previous enthusiastic owners try to improve things by fitting or replacing pieces to restore and improve the rifle. Sometimes they erase the clues to the previous history. During the rifle's service life, parts were upgraded, repairs and replacements made. They all can tell part of the story. 

There are lots of desportered rifles making the rounds changing hands. Some are terrible put togethers but they are selling for top dollar along side original specimens. As with anything, it makes sense to know what is correct and what would be original before spending big bucks. Some early models like yours IF original and untouched are worth quite a bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 6:00pm
well put simon , and some helpful info too ...

it is why we ask for photos - so much can be discerned from every detail revealed , there are no real records of the life of an individual rifle and what little once existed are often lost , the details can tell much , the unit markings are often a tell as well on those so marked , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Homer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 6:14pm
Sorry to throw a cat among the pigeons, bit dubious the origins of the bolt and nose cap numbering. Size and font look not characteristic of what is norm to me. I could be wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2018 at 6:20pm
i have no issue with your cat being thrown , i did not look closely at the fonts , it is why we are all here after all , thanks for pointing that out , deserves more scrutiny 

FYI - most cats gotten thrown become targets around here - but we love the interaction , as always im pleased to see you jumped in homer with your keen observations , i often miss the nuances 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sc-em Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2018 at 2:44am
That is all very fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to write such an informed reply.
I can forward as many photos as may be helpful.
I see the point about the font. The matching numbers ones do appear to be much more rustic than the, presumably original ones that represent the crown markings etc. I haven't managed to find any on the wood work yet. Maybe today with a bit of daylight, which I don't see at home in the working week, I can perhaps find some more that may be of help.
 
I am beginning to see, and understand, that there must be a myriad of options over its working life and the detective work to  resolve the original provenance my be extensive.
 
What more can I be doing at my end that may help to inform this detection work more fully?
 
On the subject of value, I have little consideration for it in terms of an investment. I just like the historic value in terms of, as you say, the story it may tell.
 
I was only telling my class yesterday about when I worked on an archaeological dig at a monastery for 6 months and dug up a 600 +years old skeleton. Was it valuable they asked? Not really, but having uncovered a piece of history with ones own hands is hard to beat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2018 at 7:38am
Something to remember is that something may have been made (& dated) in a certain year, but then it went as a routine thing through many changes fixes, updates & rebuilds for literally decades.
The frustrating thing with Lee-Enfields in particular is that its rarely possible to dig down to certain levels of detail.
I remember being on the New Passage (Pilning) range in the 1970's & being handed chargers of .303 dated 1913!
We were joking about "using the last of the '13, Jeeves bring the 14 if you please"!
Because of the length & width of service "Never say never or always with an Enfield"! is very true.

You could do a "photo map" of the rifle.
Overall left & right side views then a "walk round" of lots of detail images of the entire gun, breech, butt, sights & so on.
There is a huge amount of info there but to interpret it accurately & as completely as possible clear close up pics are the best info possible!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sc-em Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2018 at 8:03am
I have started printing off the photos and see if I can reference them with Skennerton's book which does seem to have a considerable amount of detail, to say the least.
 
I could really do with better quality pics so may have to wait until my daughter brings over her Nikon for some close ups.
 
Then the photo map could begin in earnest and whatever is uncovered, then so be it. It will make it easier for when I get my next one...….don't tell the missus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sc-em Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2018 at 9:50am
Okay I have been looking a bit more closely at some of the markings and found this so far. Forgive me if my names of components are not correct.
On the collar infront of the action on the left side there is the Crown over ER cross flags with a P (proof marking) To the left of that is what seems to be another crown with a 95 underneath and maybe an E below that.
Rearward of that is what could be a p31.
 
On the right side of this collar is cross swords with a D and A either side and 93 or a 99 below. To the rear of this a W with the 6513. In front of this collar on top of the barrel just visible under the wood is the same cross swords and number configuration as above. This is also repeated again on the actual ball of the bolt. The hammer cocking piece also has an EFD with 12 under it with a arrow head above (manufacturers marking?)
 
Under the front of the barrel is a small crown and underneath a 12 and 13 or maybe a B below this (called the Enfield view according to Skennerton)
 
The side of the stock collar read crown over Enfield ER 1907 ShTLE 111. The top of this an odd RS 59 running along the length.
 
In three place there is the larger numbers of 6513 on the nose, bolt and side of the action. Could this be WW2 markings?
 
The cross swords intrigues me, as it too is in 3 places as mentioned and seems as original as the crown stamps. But maybe not having had a Google. Deactivation marks 93 or 99?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2018 at 4:18pm
When your daughter brings her Nikon set up a simple studio for her to work with.
Do NOT use the camera's built in flash! Those things are horrible for this kind of work.

No equipment almost, a table at a comfortable height & a shaded area with a few pieces of white "foam-core" to let her use as reflectors. Most photographers start out in bright sunlight, but its the absolute worst thing, even, pale shaded, light works wonders.

Some blackboard chalk is a big help too, just rub it into the makings & wipe off the excess to make them stand out.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2018 at 7:40pm
W6513 should be the serial number , BSA used the W prefix in 1913 , 1915 , SSA used it in 1917 , 1918 , NRF used it in 1918 , ishapore used it in 1963 1972 , 1974 , it appears that enfield skipped around it , i do not see it listed for lithgow and we do not know about sparkbrook by my data , but your wrist data should tell us where it was made and when , as well as the configuration - although that could be complicated by later update markings and cancellations it will provide the most accurate read on original and afterlife 

as mentioned the crowns tell some of the story but the initials below tell more - for the time period we are addressing - ER would be edward VII from 1901-1910 , GR would be george V 1911-1936 , there was then an ER edward VIII in 1936 again and back to GR george VI 1937-1952 

conversion from mkIII to mkIII* happened generally at enfield in later 1916 , BSA in late 1915 , at LSA in 1918 , ishapore in 1916 and lithgow in 1918 , conversion back to mkIII happened at BSA and ishapore in 1920 and lithgow in 1922 , 
then back to mkIII* at BSA in 1939 , ishapore 1935 and lithgow 1941 , an FTR fills in blanks , 

looking forward to your photos , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sc-em Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 09 2018 at 8:52am
I will have to wait a couple of weeks before my daughter is over. In the meantime, though. My gun is clearly an Enfield, but could it have gone through the BSA factory to have the W prefix with the serial numbers.
 
I assume the wrist is the section just forward of the action. It does seem to have the majority of the numbers and markings and is the top photo on this page, albeit upside down. It is these I need to gather more info on and as much as I can see was listed on my previous post.
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