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Mk VII 174 grain Bullet Section |
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Steyrfan 
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Joined: April 03 2023 Location: Clayton, NC Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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 Topic: Mk VII 174 grain Bullet SectionPosted: April 03 2023 at 7:31am |
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he!!o All,
I'm new to the forum as I just picked up my first ShtLE a few weeks back, an original 1920 Lithgow with all mating numbers. It is a super interesting rifle and I can't wait to see what it can do on the range. So, ammo reloading is next up on the task list! I ran into a local guy selling a bunch of surplus 174gr MK VII bullets this weekend. Since they were dirt cheap I picked up all of them in hopes of loading some range ammo. I was surprised by how long the bullet was so I did some reading up on it and learned there was supposed to be a light material in the tip to lengthen the bullet and increase the BC. Curiosity then got the best of me so i cut one open and, sure enough, there was a aluminum solid section in the front! Here is a pic for reference:  So, are these good only for plinking and general range use? What kind of accuracy potential do they have compared to modern production bullets? |
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britrifles
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Joined: February 03 2018 Location: Georgia, USA Status: Online Points: 8404 |
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Posted: April 04 2023 at 5:58am |
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Welcome Steyrfan.
There is no way to tell how they will perform until you shoot them. Some MkVII bullets are very accurate, and difficult to distinguish from a modern match grade bullet (within the accuracy potential of the LE rifle). Generally, service issue ball ammunition will group 10 shots to within 2 to 4 inches at 100 yards. I have several hundred rounds of 1951 Canadian Dominion MK VIIz ammunition that still groups at 1.5 inches at 100 yards, which is the best I've seen for Mk VII ball. So, you never know...
In my Dad's reloading supplies that I now have was about 1000 MK VII bullets that I believe were pulled by CIL back in the 1950's - 1960's and replaced with a soft nose bullet they sold for hunting use. These pulled MK VII bullets do not group well, 4 to 5 inches. I suspect they were deformed during the pulling operation; or, that ammunition was known to have sub-standard bullets giving poor accuracy. Let us know how they shoot. |
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Goosic
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Posted: April 04 2023 at 8:37am |
Those bullets were accurate enough to kill the bad guys when the time came and they make for excellent target use today when loaded properly. The target shown here is a prime example of the accuracy potential of these bullets. All done at 100 yards through open/iron sights...
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Honkytonk
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Posted: April 04 2023 at 9:45am |
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I'm assuming that aluminium tip was to circumvent some Geneva Convention rule in regards to the use of expanding hollow point (Dum-Dum) bullets?
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britrifles
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Posted: April 04 2023 at 10:54am |
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No doubt, the Mk VII bullet created devastating wounds. But, I don't think that was the reason for the composite core construction.
Experiments with the first spitzer bullets showed problems with stability at longer ranges, the fix was to move the cg of the bullet aft by filling the nose with lighter material (aluminum and several other materials were used). The Mk VII bullets do indeed have good accuracy out to 1000x and handle the transition to sonic speeds very well. Also, lengthening the bullet gave a substantially higher ballistic coefficient that retains more velocity and energy down range. |
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Shamu
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Posted: April 04 2023 at 11:26am |
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A little of both IMO. Plus it saved on lead, a strategic metal, The aluminum tips were a later development, the earlier filling was a sawdust based "woodpulp" composite! With typical British ingenuity & daftness in a 505/50 mix they sterilized the filling before loading to prevent the possibility of extra infection from the wound!  If you're gong to use them as target bullets there are a few things to consider. They are notoriously irregular for weight, so sort em & batch em+/- 1gr. Depending on HOW they were both crimped & pulled they may, or may not be pristine. Check for any even minor defects particularly at the 2 positions where crimps were applied, & for "scraping" or "dinging" marks from collect or hammer tool removal. Now having said that these same bullets (minus the pulling stresses) shot "match for many, many years very successfully. 1,000yd groups of around 15" were normal for expert marksmen. Some really skilled (& maybe a bit lucky) ones shot "clean" (everything in the bullseye.) I've scored Queen's Marksman with them & re-qualified several times back in my younger days with them. So, based on that they can't be really terrible! I actually have a batch of 240 of them still loaded in some "RL 1945" stamped brass (Royal Laboratory, Woolwich Arsenal, Kent). Its Cordite & corrosive so I'm keeping it as an emergency stash, they're destructive little devils downrange. but I'll use the bullets after pulling them if the primers deteriorate.  |
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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britrifles
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Posted: April 04 2023 at 12:14pm |
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10 shots within 15 inches at 1000x is exceedingly good. I haven't come very close to that yet, I'm still working to hold the 20 inch 10 ring on the US NRA Long Range target at 1000 yards with my No. 4 7.62 conversion with PH5c sight.
IIRC, the Bisley SR(b) long range target in use in the .303 days had a 30 inch bull (900 and 1000 yards). Typically, long range strings were 15 shots, so a score of 75 is "clean" (all shots within the 3 MOA bull).
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britrifles
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Posted: April 04 2023 at 5:08pm |
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I’ve not seen much information on the development of the Mk VII bullet. Reynolds has a half page on it in his book, The Lee Enfield Rifle. A few other online articles have a photo of the original RL drawing of the first version dated 1909 which weighed 160 grains having a larger portion of the core made from aluminum. The article said it failed accuracy tests, and the new iteration weighed 174 gr., approved in the LOC in 1910.
Reynolds stated the aluminum front section tip was needed “partly to bring the bullet to the correct weight and partly to balance the bullet for accurate shooting”. I think the wood pulp tip was a later development, likely introduced during the war when aluminum became a critical material for aircraft. |
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Steyrfan
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Posted: April 04 2023 at 7:09pm |
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Thank you all for the good info! I liked the suggestion to weigh separate the bullets into groups, so I spent some time on the scale tonight. Keep in mind that these are all Iraqi MkVII bullets and other manufactures may differ significantly. None the less, here is what I found:
 So, only 25% were 174 +/- 0.3 grains. The majority of 48% were about 1 grain light. Overall however I truly dont think that is too awful for WWII military ammo. What do you'all think?
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britrifles
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Posted: April 05 2023 at 4:26am |
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I wouldn’t expect too much from these bullets. The fairly large weight variation is an indicator of general lack of quality controls. It’s things like variation in jacket thickness that cause accuracy issues.
Are there indications that these are pulled bullets? If so, there will be some faint scrape marks from the case neck, may also be crimp marks. |
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Steyrfan
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Posted: April 05 2023 at 6:47am |
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Thank you Britrifles,
Most of them look new. All of the bullet tips are pristine so I dont think they were pulled with a hammer style. A few have slight indications of a collet pull mark which is likely what was done. I would say about 10% have some slight dents where the crimp missed the cannelure, mostly low towards the base side of the groove. Ill load some up to normal spec and also a few long one with the ogive 0.010" off the rifling as see what happens. Work case is I got a bunch of good plinking ammo!
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Shamu
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Posted: April 05 2023 at 11:17am |
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I'd try some of the 312 (172.4 ~ 173.6Gr) as a test drive! Maybe they'll run well. The rest I'd plink & practice with.
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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Sapper740
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Posted: April 06 2023 at 8:52am |
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You'll find discussions on bullets for the Lee Enfield will break down into two groups: A) those who eschew all but flat, open based bullets that oburate upon firing and supposedly are the most accurate and B) those who are willing to try any style of bullet in the quest for a modern, available bullet that is as accurate or more so than the original. I fall firmly into group B and have gotten excellent accuracy in my various Lee Enfields from Hornady 150gr. SST, 150gr. LeHigh copper solids, and 174gr. Sierra Match Kings. I avoid being an absolutist as I find it limits my opportunities to explore the greatest possible accuracy in my rifles. Having said that, I plink with bullets I've pulled from surplus 7.65X53 Arg. and various weights of Prvi Partisan for fun and to fireform cases for the rifle, I just don't expect maximum accuracy from them.
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Steyrfan wrote: