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My 1909 No 1*** {PICTURES REVISED]

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MarkG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MarkG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 10:14am
As far as I can see, that's only a Z, though, not a ZF? Wouldn't that just be part of the serial number?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 10:14am
Geeze Sham: I don't think he'll like that news.
(Tough being the bearer of bad news, aint it?)
Loose wimmen tightened here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MarkG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 10:37am
I found a picture of another BSA No1 online, and it has an 'M' in that spot as part of its serial number:


I also looked at a picture I have of mine on my phone, and mine has a 'Z' there, too. So either they're both defective or BSA were just using 'Z' prefixes at the time. And mine was passed as good to shoot by the local gunsmith.

I couldn't find a picture of a ZF on the receiver, only the buttstock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 12:48pm

So, thanks guys for the answers...  really!  The more I learn about the Enfields, the less I think I really know.

I do know these rifles put a deer on the ground just file!

To the “Z” commentary above....  
The gun has been inspected by a gunsmith, owned by a gunsmith, fired at a rifle range by the owning gunsmith....  deer have been taken with this rifle by the previous ower who was a gunsmith...

I find some solace in the old USAF saying:  if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck.

I have looked and do not see a”ZF” or the other variations of “Z” mentioned...  there are no stampings on the stock at all...  so will trust and agree with you MarkG, on the prefixes used at the time.

How would one know what prefixes were used, and when?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 1:23pm
OK that's just the serial number prefix.
(breathes sigh of relief)
I thought you were referring to a separate Z!
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MarkG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Whitjr Whitjr wrote:

How would one know what prefixes were used, and when?

I've seen people refer to books which list which prefix(es) was/were used by different manufacturers at different times, but I haven't found a list online. I did find another Z-prefix BSA from 1917, when mine was made.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 1:53pm
It started out just as a letter to give more digits to a rotation.
started with:
1000
went up to 9999
 then added an "A"
A
1000
up to A 9999
then B
B1000 to
B9999
& so on through Z 9999.
Then a second letter
so AA 1000 to AA9999
& then incremented the second letter
AB 1000 through AB 9999
up to ZZ
ZZ9999 was the last of the sequence & they simply started over.
Eventually the first numeric digit was the factory identifier so it became
XX 1### for one ROF
XX 2### for another
XX 3### for a third & so on.
Finally they went to more complex separate codes like "M47c", but it was all very interleaved & slapdash. Some factories were using the first digit, some the ROF code & some something else.

"The Lee Enfield No 4 Rifle Mk 1 was produced by a variety of different manufacturers in England. These included ROF Fazakerley, BSA, and ROF Maltby. Wartime guns all had letter prefixes, but each maker had a different number after the prefix to differentiate manufacturers. Maltby guns had a “1” after the letter prefix, Fazakerley guns had a “2”, and BSA generally a “3”. Some BSA guns lacked an alphabetic prefix, and other BSA guns had dual letter prefixes that did not start with a “3”.
Censored

I cant find a list either, sorry.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Whitjr Whitjr wrote:


So, thanks guys for the answers...  really!  The more I learn about the Enfields, the less I think I really know.

I do know these rifles put a deer on the ground just file!

To the “Z” commentary above....  
The gun has been inspected by a gunsmith, owned by a gunsmith, fired at a rifle range by the owning gunsmith....  deer have been taken with this rifle by the previous ower who was a gunsmith...

I find some solace in the old USAF saying:  if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck.

I have looked and do not see a”ZF” or the other variations of “Z” mentioned...  there are no stampings on the stock at all...  so will trust and agree with you MarkG, on the prefixes used at the time.

How would one know what prefixes were used, and when?



Whitjr: I knew a gunsmith that was given a double barrel 4 gauge  shotgun by another gunsmith who vehemently informed the latter to never shoot the shotgun because it was determined to be  very unsafe to fire. The first gunsmith took the shotgun totally apart,inspected every nuance of the shotgun and deemed it safe to shoot. The shotgun was made in 1877 and the barrels were  Damascus  steel and were almost paper thin. He then called the second gunsmith and told him the shotgun was perfectly safe to shoot. The second told the first about the barrels and that it was unsafe.  The first replied,(ah bull$&!t!!!) Took the shotgun to the range the very next day and had the barrels split down the middle like piece of wood splintering.  One of the side hammers came off striking gunsmith in the left eye and penetrating into the cranium.  He died.  If someone on this forum has information  about or regarding a possible defective Enfield rifle,take it with a grain of salt and check and recheck the situation out to positively confirm the issue pointed out,it could save your life. The gunsmith was a very good friend of the other gunsmith who was my second cousin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 3:04pm
Goosic-  A sobering story. I'll take it to heart. I'm retired from 35 years as a clinical Respiratory Therapist [hospital-based] and I have a strong sense of the fragility of life. 

Shamu- thank you for the "Clearing in hot" on the Z Serial Number prefix...  [another USAF term, I'm full of them as was born and raised inside the fortress's of USAF bases.].

Do you guys think the rear sights are original to the gun?

Any idea as to the value of the weapon? 

Thanks again for all the responses!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 3:17pm
IIRC, NO damascus barrels should be used in conjunction with modern powders.
Loose wimmen tightened here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 4:08pm
yes , the Z is the serial number prefix the ER is the refurb renumber , that is typical of these I*** rifles [both CR & ER observed ] 

good news is rear sight is the correct watkins speed for this rifle , i cannot tell if it was re-calibrated , that involved cutting down the ramps on the base but it was subtle enough to not necessarily be noticeable in a photo , 

bad news is although the bolt looks like its correct , albeit mismatch , it is missing the charger bridge half , findable but can be difficult , 

the bayonet boss is a later mkIII but fine with that stock , appears to be missing its cutoff , 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 5:54pm
A Square-  the bolt is stamped “3607.”  This is also on the receiver, above what is another number “9263” with dashes in between the numbers.  This number “9263” is also on the barrel where it mates to the receiver.  Wonder why there are two numbers there?

Would this still constitute a mismatched bolt number?

When I compare the photo you provided of the bayonet boss to the ‘09, it is hard for me to discern a difference.  There are some minute red colors on the sight blade in the photo ... is that what you are referring to as the cutoff?

The charger bridge half that is missing...  would this interfere with chambering a round, and discharging said round? Or upon extraction of same?

Thank you.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 7:29pm
the ER 3607 number was the new serial number applied when these went through a refurb for irish service , not a bad thing , it just now has two serial numbers with bits matched as originAL AND AT REFURB , 

here is the mkI bayonet boss -






and here is the mk III bayonet boss - 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2018 at 8:16pm
I see that the “ears” on the No 1 seem to be straighter and perhaps longer.  Thanks for taking the time to send the pics.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2018 at 4:13am
This looks like an interesting rifle. I see what looks like and "Ishey" screw through the fore end. Also the original "Z" serial number on the receiver appears to be struck out and replaced by "ER" number; that also appears on the bolt.
It could have had replacement wood fitted that came from an Ishapore rifle of course.
The fit of the fore end at the wrist seems a bit unfinished and square.
The inletting for rear volley sight is missing. It should fold forwards I believe.
Barrel appears to date from 05/1911.
Nose cap number is different to both receiver number's.
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whitjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2018 at 5:44am
Thanks, Zed

Would the Ishey screw be the one thru the barrel band?  This band is not hinged, as i would have expected.

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