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No.4 Mk.I* T

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jhonelver View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 11 2021 at 11:21am
Look what i have found.

This weekend i am going to check this rifle out.
I can't wait for it, hopefully this is what i am looking for. if so i am going to buy it.





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Goosic View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2021 at 11:46am
Ask the current owner why he has a solid spacer between the rear thumb screw and the mount itself please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2021 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Ask the current owner why he has a solid spacer between the rear thumb screw and the mount itself please.

I am not sure about the spacer. will ask but probably no one knows the awnser.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2021 at 12:02pm
Check it out carefully. I'm sure that you know what to look for, to ensure it's original.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2021 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

Check it out carefully. I'm sure that you know what to look for, to ensure it's original.

It looks promising, will be really hard to indentify.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2021 at 5:38pm
If you need assistance with all the specific identification marks and stamps,  PM me or MJ11. I have done extensive research on all those particulars when making my No4 T clone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2021 at 6:38pm
looks great - hope all checks out and it performs as well as expected , im not the one here to comment on the "Ts" so ill let goosic and MJ give you the scoop , there is a lot about the no4 that can be learned here with the right input but perhaps im off base thinking you might need that help , the "Ts" are another added topic to the no4 conversation obviously 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2021 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

If you need assistance with all the specific identification marks and stamps,  PM me or MJ11. I have done extensive research on all those particulars when making my No4 T clone.

Thanks for your help. But this is something different.
I forgot to mention it.

In 2018 the Dutch national military museum got an Lee Enfield sniper. One of 600 produced in the early 1950s. These rifles were modified to a sniper version by the Dutch for the Dutch army. Almost no one knows about this. I do research of dutch lee enfield and dutch modifications and production. 

The museum gave an statement saying the have the only dutch sniper believed to have survived. This rifle i am checking this weekend would be the second one.

They are not like the british snipers. And are really hard to identify. 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 12:36am
Originally posted by jhonelver jhonelver wrote:

Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

If you need assistance with all the specific identification marks and stamps,  PM me or MJ11. I have done extensive research on all those particulars when making my No4 T clone.

Thanks for your help. But this is something different.
I forgot to mention it.

In 2018 the Dutch national military museum got an Lee Enfield sniper. One of 600 produced in the early 1950s. These rifles were modified to a sniper version by the Dutch for the Dutch army. Almost no one knows about this. I do research of dutch lee enfield and dutch modifications and production. 

The museum gave an statement saying the have the only dutch sniper believed to have survived. This rifle i am checking this weekend would be the second one.

They are not like the british snipers. And are really hard to identify. 

 
This is not a Holland & Holland conversion then? If you could be so inclined as to check who the original manufacturer of the rifle was? Your pictures are a tad fuzzy but, I see the safety catch is the Long Branch version and I think the No4Mk1 stamp also has Long Branch stamped over it.
We have a saying here in the states.  "Buy the rifle,  not the story." If its too good to be true, chances are it is not what you expected.  There are thousands of fake T rifles floating around North America and at least one fake L8A5T series of Enfield rifle that I know of personally. Do your research and do it as best you can. Is there a possibility that you could take it to the museum you mentioned and have it compared to the one they have?
I figured out what the solid spacer between the thumb screw and mount is. It is the spacer that is found in the forestock the king screw fits into. I made the exact same spacer a few hours ago by cutting one in half and fitting it to the thumb screw on my rifle. It would be better to find another spring washer and keep the spacer as a backup...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 2:00am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

[
This is not a Holland & Holland conversion then? If you could be so inclined as to check who the original manufacturer of the rifle was? Your pictures are a tad fuzzy but, I see the safety catch is the Long Branch version and I think the No4Mk1 stamp also has Long Branch stamped over it.
We have a saying here in the states.  "Buy the rifle,  not the story." If its too good to be true, chances are it is not what you expected.  There are thousands of fake T rifles floating around North America and at least one fake L8A5T series of Enfield rifle that I know of personally. Do your research and do it as best you can. Is there a possibility that you could take it to the museum you mentioned and have it compared to the one they have?
I figured out what the solid spacer between the thumb screw and mount is. It is the spacer that is found in the forestock the king screw fits into. I made the exact same spacer a few hours ago by cutting one in half and fitting it to the thumb screw on my rifle. It would be better to find another spring washer and keep the spacer as a backup...

This rifle is an Long branch No4 Mk.I* 1943
And the scope is an Dutch Nr 32 M3 1951 AI

After ww2 the allies supplied the dutch army with firearms.
Rifles from the US, Canada and UK were given to the Dutch.

In 1951 600 of these Lee Enfield rifles were send to Artillerie Inrichtingen (AI) to be changed to a sniper rifle. We called them No4 Mk.I K. ( K of kijke. Which is the dutch word for scope) 

These rifles were first checked by the armourers of AI and if it failed check parts could be replaced. AI manufactered replacement parts like boltheada, stocks, cockingpieces etc.

These parts were fitted on these sniper rifles. Nothing was changed to the original markings on the rifle. So it still is makred No.4 Mk.I* Long Branch 1943. 

The scope and rifle look like their british counterpart but are not the same. The rifle does not have the sling swivel or cheekpiece because we dont need them i guess 😂. 

I also had an appointment with the museum but all is cancelled because of covid. I do have photos of the one in the museum and i can use that as reference. But still it is 1 reference and this would be the second rifle we know of that survived.

Wel keep you guys updated on the progressl.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2021 at 2:53am
Here is the one from the Dutch National Military Museum.

This one is an No.4 Mk.I BSA Shirley from 1944

That is all the information that was given including a couple fotos.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2021 at 1:56am
Here an update:

I bought the rifle.

It will take me a while to get the import documents.
i am in contact with people from the archives and museum to learn more about this rifle and modifications.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2021 at 9:22am
When you do  finally receive the rifle would you be so kind as to share with us all the different and unique stampings associated with it by including photos?
As a side note: If this is what you assume it to be. It would benefit the whole of the Enfield community to contact Ian Skennerton and share with him this information and have it revised into the big book of the Enfield Rifles...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2021 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

When you do  finally receive the rifle would you be so kind as to share with us all the different and unique stampings associated with it by including photos?
As a side note: If this is what you assume it to be. It would benefit the whole of the Enfield community to contact Ian Skennerton and share with him this information and have it revised into the big book of the Enfield Rifles...

I once mailed Ian Skennerton about Dutch markings on Enfield rifles because i didn't know what they were. he didn't either.

that is why i am doing this research. but it will take some time.

getting the rifle is part one.
then i will ask permission to look at documents of the dutch army about these rifles.
also i need the help of the museum that has the drawings and one other known Dutch lee enfield sniper.

Will need some time before something can be written.

but will make sure to get something published when i am ready.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 3:28am
Sounds like an exciting find. Looking forward to following the story of this one!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 9:22am
will keep you updated.

This rifle will look nice next to my FN FAL with Dutch AI scope.





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