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No.4 Mk.I* T

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2021 at 6:56pm
i had one of those FN FALs as well , have not been reminded in a bit 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MJ11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 8:18pm
Interesting post.

I will have to read it again slowly over coffee.

..........................Wink.........................



The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2021 at 7:12am
jhonelver: 
Any updates as to if the rifle is an authentic Dutch Military  modified Enfield? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2021 at 4:50pm
I too would be interested in the process that other countries tuned No4's prior to committing the rifle into service as a "Sniper" rifle. So many countries utilized this rifle in so many ways for so long. A tribute to this outstanding weapon of war!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2021 at 7:05pm
there is that , i know very little of after use as it was never the area i looked into , but , i too would be interested if anyone has anything to share 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2021 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

jhonelver: 
Any updates as to if the rifle is an authentic Dutch Military  modified Enfield? 

My research is going slow.
I just switched jobs and are moving into my new house.
So i didn't have much time for researching this rifle.
 When i learn more or have any other information regarding Dutch use of Lee Enfields i would share it with you guys.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 12:12am
I Will start a new topic about the use of Lee Enfields by the Dutch armed forces.

I will keep this post for updates on my research for this particular rifle. But the broader history on Dutch lee enfields will be discussed in a new topic. When i have enough information i am thinking of writing a book about it. But that will take some time (years)  before i can do that. In the mean time ill share any information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 5:50am
much appreciated 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote devrep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 6:25am
Perhaps none of the friction would have happened if he hadn't titled his post as  "No.4 Mk.I* T"
double gun
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 7:49am
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

Perhaps none of the friction would have happened if he hadn't titled his post as  "No.4 Mk.I* T"

the T in No.4 Mk.I* T is from Telescopic Sight.
we dutch we call that Kijker or Kijker Richt (Recht) as the army called them.

So officially we called those rifles No.4 Mk.I* K . which is just a translation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 10:22am
I think there's some confusion here.
Perhaps I can clarify for everyone.
Lee-Enfield nomenclature is, of necessity complex & precise.
The old Number, Mark & star designations have to be absolutely accurate, not to insult or anything else, but to accurately identify the actual rifle being discussed.
For example,
The Rifle No1 MkIII
is a completely different rifle from the
Rifle No3 Mk1
The actions are different & no parts interchange between them, so you can see why the apparent nit picking is actually relevant to the discussion.
Because of that I think the Rifle No4 Mk1(T)
& the Dutch made conversion of the No4 rifles is unique to the Dutch & so it should be identified as such. Not to denigrate it in any way, but to accurately describe it & its differences.

"Rifle 7,7mm Lee Enfield model of 1942". 

Is what the Dutch called it & I see no reason to not do the same as it was its official designation. The European designation for .303 British was 7.7X56R

Standard European methodology was to name the rifle from its year of introduction (Kar 98 for example with the German Mauser).


This rifle is an Long branch No4 Mk.I* 1943

And the scope is an Dutch Nr 32 M3 1951 AI

So I see no negative connotation to calling it the Dutch equivalent of “With Telescope.

To my way of thinking its not derogatory in any way, just pin point accurate!

There were minor differences & the nomenclature simply reflects them, nothing more.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhonelver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

I think there's some confusion here.
Perhaps I can clarify for everyone.
Lee-Enfield nomenclature is, of necessity complex & precise.
The old Number, Mark & star designations have to be absolutely accurate, not to insult or anything else, but to accurately identify the actual rifle being discussed.
For example,
The Rifle No1 MkIII
is a completely different rifle from the
Rifle No3 Mk1
The actions are different & no parts interchange between them, so you can see why the apparent nit picking is actually relevant to the discussion.
Because of that I think the Rifle No4 Mk1(T)
& the Dutch made conversion of the No4 rifles is unique to the Dutch & so it should be identified as such. Not to denigrate it in any way, but to accurately describe it & its differences.

I agree with you 100%.

But that rifle is Marked No.4 Mk.I* (?). we both agree on that.

the problem here is. that in literature the dutch tend to translate. so in the Dutch manuals it is written as No.4 Mk.I* K but in translated manuals it is described as No.4 Mk.I* T

And that is just pure how the dutch military called those rifles. but for the sake of your argument and to not confuse anyone. i will use No.4 Mk.I* K from now on. and hope that we can all enjoy learning more about Lee Enfield rifles and stuff. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 10:43am
No problem at all.
Again there's a reason for the No, MARK & Star,
No denotes a particular design model
No1 is the SMLE, (or ShtLE)
No2 is the SMLE /ShtLE,  No1 MkIII, but manufactured as a .22 RimFire
No3 is the P-14 Mauser auctioned "American Enfield"
No4 is the later version redesigned from the earlier No1.

The various "Marks" of each are design upgrades to the basic item, &
The "Star/no Star" minor revisions to an existing (model) No, and "Mark"!

If the rifle is stamped as a No4 Mk1* thats exactly what it is.
But a No4 Mk1(T), or No4 mk1*(T), are also exactly that.
Again, the devil is in the details.

Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Homer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Let me play Devils Advocate for a moment here.
I originally bought a barreled action only. It is a Savage made No4Mk1*. I purchased a reproduction H&H scope assembly and followed the process of installing it correctly by Mr. Laidler. I then researched every known stamp and proper location of said stamps by H&H and placed them accordingly.  I had at the time an exact copy of a H&H converted No4Mk1*T of which only 2500 originals were produced.  I just recently found and bought an original unissued 7.62mm Canadian Arsenal made contoured No4 barrel.  More research was done and I discovered that Enfield produced the L8 series project.  I followed the steps involved and rebarrelled my No4Mk1* to the Enfield specifications and now have an exact copy of a L8A5T which included the exact style of elctro stenciling over the original No4Mk1* stamp to indicate the conversion by Enfield themselves.
Question: Is it an actual sniper rifle?
It shoots as accurately if not better than an original T rifle converted by H&H and just as capable of holding a 1 - 1.5 MOA as any Enfield converted No4 to the 7.62mm but was completely refurbished and recalibrate by myself. The rifle you acquired was scoped by the Dutch military. Question: Does that make it an actual sniper rifle according to the British Ministry of Defense standards of how a No4Mk1 was to be configured?
Remember that the Canadian Arsenal/Long Branch No4Mk1* were converted to a Telescopic Rifle using the REL C scope assembly but was never officially adopted by the British Government. The MOD was the definitive at the time as to what their definition of a sniper rifle was to be and if made by any other source of manufacturing, it was just a facsimile and would remain as such.
I personally, am very interested in learning more about your newly acquired specimen and look forward to any and all information you  offer as to how it was configured including all the different stamps there may be...

So you humped a couple sniper rifles? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2021 at 3:12pm
I am not understanding the question Homer. Could you be more specific please?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:12am
Have you received the rifle you originally posted pictures of?
If yes. Does it have any other AI markings on the rifle itself besides the scope?
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