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No.4 MkII* Bayonet

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TomcatPC View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 06 2020 at 9:23am
Here is a common No.4 MkII* Bayonet.  The scabbard is plastic.  I'm 99.99% certain that the frog is an Indian made version?  Why the standard Pattern-1937 frog that could be used with both the Pattern-1907 Bayonet and the newer No.4 series was not produced instead of a frog just for the No.4 series bayonets is something I wonder about.  It appears that there are a lot of these Indian made frogs for the No.4 series  bayonet on the market today.
Mark

The .303" Cartridge, Helping Englishmen express their emotions since 1888.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 9:29am
Is the Frog a new made one? It looks very very clean! 
Nice bayonet and scabard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TomcatPC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 9:42am
No, just unissued.
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 11:21am
I have a No4 Mk11* that was made by Howard&Bullough Co..
The MkII scabbard is stamped S191 and was made by Franco-British Electric Co.. It is one of 25,000 experimental scabbards made according to Skennerton.  The pattern 1951 green canvas belt frog has been classified by Carter as frog #190. This example has an unknown makers stamp and dated 1952.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 4:08pm
A lot of the time the weave of the fabric is a big clue!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 5:08pm
The bayonet is a Savage made No4 MkI. The scabbard is a No4 MkI and the frog is the second of the two subtypes that Carter has classified as #154. It was made by the Blackmans Leather Goods Company Ltd with a finished slit in the upper loop for use with the No4 spike.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 8:15pm
out of curiosity has anyone tried to fit a P1907 scabbard to one of these later 'universal' frogs ? i have been a long time collector and yes i have - in two instances , one successful after a lot of work - one ended in a less desirable result , 

they are too lose for the no 4 scabbards and way tooo tight for the P1907 , just an observation over the last 20+ years 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 8:54pm
I am learning as I go since I am new to this bayonet collecting.  I have a No4 MkI cruciform and a No4 MkII early Singer made with the GR Cypher. The cruciform has the early No4Mk1 scabbard with the No4Mk1 stamped on the rim of the scabbard. Both have what I thought were identical frogs. I found out the frog for the No MkII is a Post-war belt frog for use with the SAFN 1949 and  FNL bayonets. 
Based on the British Pattern 1937 design, this example is made of olive green cotton webbing. It has a unique reinforcement providing a double thickness of webbing on the reverse where the frog would contact the equipment belt. The wide hilt strap floating loose inside the belt loop is characteristic of Belgian frogs..

The frog for the cruciform is actually newer.  This frog is nearly identical to the frog formally listed,except it is made of synthetic webbing. The synthetic thread sparkles in bright light.

This frog was not classified by Carter.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TomcatPC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 9:34pm
Do you mean the Pattern-1937 Bayonet Frog with the small slit/hole in the upper loop as "universal"?

In my experience, yes the Pattern-1907 Bayonet fits decent (yes it is tight at first) with the scabbard boss in between the two loops.  I can see how some of the frogs could have shrank over the years.  I have had a couple struggles with few.  I also have a couple that go in and out fairly easy.

When the No.4 Bayonet was introduced the Pattern-1937 Bayonet frog had to be used with the leather bayonet securing tab, or it was able to fall out.  

This was the first stop gap attempt to make the No.4 Bayonet work with the Pattern-1937 Frog.

Later on the frogs were modified with the small slit in the upper loop for the No. 4 Bayonet scabbard.
Here is a No. 4 Bayonet in Pattern-1937 Bayonet Frog that has had the slit for the No.4 Bayonet added to the upper loop.
  


Later on the frog were made for both style bayonets.

In my experience, I have had no trouble with the No.4 bayonet scabbard in the slit in the upper loop.  

I have dyselxia and sometimes typing out things to explain can be a problem, i hope that all made sense?
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TomcatPC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2020 at 9:38pm
http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/pics/equipment_carriers/bayonet_frogs/html/aci_375.html

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/1937_bayonet_frogs.html


More on the Pattern-1937 Bayonet Frog.  Can't get the link to work, but go to Karkee Web for more.
Mark
The .303" Cartridge, Helping Englishmen express their emotions since 1888.
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