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No4/No5 rear sight

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No.2 SMLE View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 09 2019 at 3:52am
I have a No.4 mk1 rifle here with the std battle sight. 

I am going to purchase a Mk1 "Singer" sight and fit it to my rifle. 

Question 1 
Can a No.5 Carbine rear sight be fitted to a No.4? I have studied photos of both and cannot see much difference?

Question 2 

I gather a genuine "Singer" sight is identified by the "S" stamped on it?

Example of a No5 sight that to my untrained eye looks the same as a No.4 - Currently on ebay


Regards
David.

EDIT - I have answered my own question, Some internet searching found the answer.

"These sights are of the same 'Singer' pattern as the Mk1 Rear Sight for the No4 Rifle, but are graduated in 100 yard increments from 200 - 800 yards. Due to the different ballistics of the No5 from the No4 Rifle the elevation screw and nut are unique to this sight and are not interchangeable with the No4 sight, so although they will physically fit a No4 Rifle (and vice versa) range settings will be completely different"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2019 at 6:14pm
only to the untrained eye - most of us here know what that is , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No.2 SMLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2019 at 7:50pm
Yes, I picked up on that quick enough. 
Having only just purchased a No5 I was not sure, and as I said, my No4 only has the battle sight. Once I get them next to each other it would be obvious.

And the S stamp on the Mk1 sight, does that signify that it was made by Singer? I assume Singer being the same Singer that made sewing machines?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 12:33am
Originally posted by No.2 SMLE No.2 SMLE wrote:

I have a No.4 mk1 rifle here with the std battle sight. 

I am going to purchase a Mk1 "Singer" sight and fit it to my rifle. 

Question 1 
Can a No.5 Carbine rear sight be fitted to a No.4? I have studied photos of both and cannot see much difference?

Question 2 

I gather a genuine "Singer" sight is identified by the "S" stamped on it?

Example of a No5 sight that to my untrained eye looks the same as a No.4 - Currently on ebay


Regards
David.

EDIT - I have answered my own question, Some internet searching found the answer.

<span style="color: rgb102, 102, 102; font-family: " Sans", sans-serif;">"These sights are of the same 'Singer' pattern as the Mk1 Rear Sight for the No4 Rifle, but are graduated in 100 yard increments from 200 - 800 yards. Due to the different ballistics of the No5 from the No4 Rifle the elevation screw and nut are unique to this sight and are not interchangeable with the No4 sight, so although they will physically fit a No4 Rifle (and vice versa) range settings will be completely different"</span>





The sights are totally interchangeable and actually, on a No4 rifle the No5 sight is better than the No4 sight.


I have changed out my Savage No4 sight for a No5 sight.

Remember the sights are calibrated for MKVII ammunition, any other ammunition we use (commercial or home-rolled) will not perform the same and hence the sight graduations are meaningless.

The adjustments on the No5 are much finer than those on the No4 sights allower much better (smaller) adjustments in elevation.

For the 'technical' ones amongst us :

There is a difference in screw diameter and pitch. Given the slightly coarser thread on the 800-yard (No5) sight, the "click value" would be some 10% greater than the 1300-yard (No4) sight if both were mounted on rifles with the same sight radius - except for the fact that the 1300-yard elevation screw is double-threaded, giving it an effective pitch approximately double that of the single-thread 800-yard screw.

On measuring the two sights, each click of the No.4's sight moves the slide .008" - vs. .0043" on the No.5's sight. Consequently, the 1300-yard sight gives very close to 1.0 MOA per click with the No.4 rifle's 28" sight radius while the 800-yard sight has a click value of ~0.66 MOA with the No.5's 23" sight radius and would yield ~0.55 MOA on a No.4 rifle.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 5:53am
N67 is the wartime code for Singer Manufacturing. 
The S inside a square or just the square S is indicative of Savage. The Mk1 Micrometer Sight was made by all the Enfield plants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No.2 SMLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 5:57am
Excellent. Thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pukka Bundook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 5:58am
A  number 5 sight Will fit a No 4 rifle, but the ranges are different, the No 5 sighted to a much shorter maximum, but I do not remember exactly what without looking.
 
(Is it 850 instead of 1300 yards?)
 
Best,
R.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bear43 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 6:40am
Pukka, the max is 800.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 6:43am
#5 is to 800yds, #4 is to 1300yds.
Yes they are interchangeable but the different ranges, shorter screw travel range & so on make it a bit iffy IMO. The ranges will be off but more importantly the click stops are set up for the shorter sight radius of the carbine also so they will behave incorrectly.
I don't understand the point of putting the wrong thing on there when the right one is fairly easy to find either?


Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stanforth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 7:13am
As I am not going to use my No.4 out to 1300 yards I fitted a No.5 Singer Sight some years ago and am pleased with it.

If you look at the image that Shamu posted you will see that the ranges almost correspond on both sights.  Either will get you in the ball park and then fine tune at 4 clicks to MOA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 8:29am
Also bear in mind you may need to change the front sight height to get a new zero whichever you put on.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 2:30pm
I suspect, the No5, as opposed to a No4, because of the shorter barrel, is the reason for the different ladder increments. Longer barrel, same round, does that maybe equate to the difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No.2 SMLE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 3:40pm
Great responses everyone. This is exactly what I was after.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 5:48pm
similarly the indian 2A1 has different gradients , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2019 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

similarly the indian 2A1 has different gradients , 



Surely that is because the ballistics of 7.62 are different to 303.


The No4 and No5 both use 303.

I explained the difference in the No4 / No5 sights in the post above.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 11 2019 at 6:36am
Originally posted by Honkytonk Honkytonk wrote:

I suspect, the No5, as opposed to a No4, because of the shorter barrel, is the reason for the different ladder increments. Longer barrel, same round, does that maybe equate to the difference?

Yes in 2 ways.
Firstly the angle of change per click is different because of the shorter sight radius.
Secondly velocity is lower because of the shorter barrel.
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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