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old military rifles vs. the new.

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shotgunminister View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 03 2006 at 3:34am

  Well since the cattle are taken care of on this cold day up here in the ice box. I thought it would be interesting to poll the members here as to wether or not the new military rifle are any better then the old ones.  Personaly I would never trust my life to a semi-auto.  Given that most are gas operated and gas shrinks when it gets cold I feel thios is good enough reasoning.  Up here in the ice box the temperture regularly drops below freezing and many times below zero.  There have been cases of it dropping even more then that.  I remember it was not that long ago that the governor ordered all the schools closed becuase the temperture had dropped to -60.  A bolt gun is reliable regardless of the outside temp.  It is simple, reliable and effective.  There is no gas to shrink and cause the gun to malfunction.  Only once have I ever had a bolt gun jam.  And that was my own fault for trying to use a spent round as a "snap cap." When my life is on the line I'd take the reliablity of a bolt over the fast firepower of a semi-auto any day.  Now true full-auto guns are another story since most of these rely on blow back rather then gas operation.  Becuase of this outside temperture is a very small factor.  For a close range battle, few things can out do the raw destructive power of a 12 gauge.

I've seen the future and I don't like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2006 at 7:57am
I agree with you on this whole heartedly! I have always felt (& have witnessed throgh my time in the Army ) there is a tendensy to "Pray & spray" rather than to pick a deliberate target! When using a Semi auto /slective fire weapon added to the fact the damned things tend to jam as the situation has become "interesting " Where as the Bolt action ,saves ammo & is reliable & accurate !

     Dave 
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shotgunminister View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shotgunminister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2006 at 10:31am
  I believe that the semi and full auto suffer from very limited usefullness.  Although a good arguement can be made for using them for "cover" while the troops advance. I must submit that in modern warfare the usefulness of such tactics is limited.  Modern warfare no longer is the years long wars that it once was.  Modern warfare is and will be in the future dominated by short fast conflicts.  Also there is no longer a front line as it relates to battle.  This is no longer enemy ranks firing back at you but rather small groups of the enemy scattered greatly.  The relibility issues common to auto-loading rifles cost many a GI his life back in Vietnam.  Although they claim the have fixed this problem. I do not put faith is this design (namely the M16) even if it has been fixed.  No gun in history has even come close to the reliability of a bolt be it an Enfield or otherwise.
I've seen the future and I don't like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2006 at 8:32pm
I think that the sign out side the Marine Sniping school (I belive) sums up the problem at hand ! It reads that  the Kill ratio in Vietnam  for the average Grunt was 2000 rnds per kill where as the Sniper was 2.5 per kill or $2000.00 verses 00.27 c
or words to that effect ! Surely a Bolt action rifle in the hands of a trainnee is simpler to teach than the intracises of the Semi auto (once again I speak from my experiance as a Digger in the Aust Army ,where I went from being a fair shot with a bolt action which never failed me ,into a world of Gas blow back, many moving parts, & having to learn to unjam a weapon under fire !)
        I think that & I will be yelled down here from those who are more knowlageable on military tactics than me ! That the average soldier would be better trained & more conferdent in a simple bolt action that took little time to master it's workings & had more time to practice marksmanship ! Conferdense in your weapon is half the battle!
 knowing in the back of your mind with 100% that your weapon will fire & keep you alive  & you have the ability to hit what you are aiming for  every time ! In this day & age of Air support ,artillery ,armour (both light & heavy ) is there really a need for troops to be laden with the quantities of ammo that a selective fire weapon can go through  ? where as the humble bolt action  steadies down the rate of fire to a  more  concentrated  rate !

     Sorry if I've rambled on but this is a subject close to my heart    Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2006 at 6:23am

Makes perfect sense to me, Dave.  Although, I'm not in politics and I'm not a lobyist with a politician in my back pocket!  So I guess my .02 cents isn't worth squat!

Eric

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hoadie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2006 at 10:03am
Well lads, I can tell y'all a true story.During artic excersises(?)with the Yanks, the following happened (everytime).
1. Canadians HAD to sleep with our FN -C2's in our sleeping bags - or they'd freeze solid.During the day, it was "hit & miss" as to wether or not they'd work if you needed them.(NOt a good thing - considering how the average polar bear has a taste for human flesh!!)
2. The Yanks had early model m-16's.They used them for walking sticks - cause thats ALL they was good fer!!Froze solid, 20 minutes out!(Not a good thing, given the polar bear's tastes)
3.The Eskimo (CDN Rangers) would laugh at the white man's inability to cope with the elements, & keep walking ahead - until you look up & suddenly - THEY'RE GONE!!!(Not a good thing!)
And yes, thats just about when YE OLDE WHITE BEAR shows up.Nobody has a rifle that works, & alot of you are attached to a sled......WHAT R U GONNA DO ??!!(besides sh*t yourself, that is)
Praying works! Honest! Cause just when you think UR about to become a memory to your parents, The bear will drop - you'll hear a "CRACK" - & the Rangers - with their Lee Enfields are in the distance comin back toward you!
Yes folks - it's true! & The CDN gov't STILL issues the LEE ENFIELD to the Rangers, to this day, because they haven't found a rifle that is as dependable to replace it !!!
That's God's honest truth!
Hoadie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shotgunminister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2006 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

Well lads, I can tell y'all a true story.During artic excersises(?)with the Yanks, the following happened (everytime).
1. Canadians HAD to sleep with our FN -C2's in our sleeping bags - or they'd freeze solid.During the day, it was "hit & miss" as to wether or not they'd work if you needed them.(NOt a good thing - considering how the average polar bear has a taste for human flesh!!)
2. The Yanks had early model m-16's.They used them for walking sticks - cause thats ALL they was good fer!!Froze solid, 20 minutes out!(Not a good thing, given the polar bear's tastes)
3.The Eskimo (CDN Rangers) would laugh at the white man's inability to cope with the elements, & keep walking ahead - until you look up & suddenly - THEY'RE GONE!!!(Not a good thing!)
And yes, thats just about when YE OLDE WHITE BEAR shows up.Nobody has a rifle that works, & alot of you are attached to a sled......WHAT R U GONNA DO ??!!(besides sh*t yourself, that is)
Praying works! Honest! Cause just when you think UR about to become a memory to your parents, The bear will drop - you'll hear a "CRACK" - & the Rangers - with their Lee Enfields are in the distance comin back toward you!
Yes folks - it's true! & The CDN gov't STILL issues the LEE ENFIELD to the Rangers, to this day, because they haven't found a rifle that is as dependable to replace it !!!
That's God's honest truth!
Hoadie
  Well it don't get quite as cold here as it does your way. but I do recall one yar when the governor closed down schools stae wide becuase the temp had dropped to -60 F before windchill.  If I remember the temp was close to -100F with wind chill.  Me and my sister being young at the time went out and played in the snow bank while enjoying our day off from school.  Something even Dave would enjoy I bet.  Anyways it never fails the S*** always hits the fan when it's either the dead of night or 10 below freezing.
I've seen the future and I don't like it.
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day off from school.  Something even Dave would enjoy

 My oath ! I enjoied many days off school ! Infact they had trouble getting me to stay there ! Might be one of the reasons I do what I do for a living

 Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2006 at 10:01pm

 

 I personally like the fire power of the new age stuff, but.. i also love the idea of

bolt action simplicity of the old girls and just plain old reliability and accuracy.

also the smle is a very attractive rifle..all that timber appeals to me and i just

love em full stop....in a non fettish, twisted way  :)

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Thought id say a quick gday to DaveH.. Wavin' a hand at ya from Wollongong NSW.

cheers. Al

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shotgunminister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2006 at 1:35am
Originally posted by allan allan wrote:

 

 I personally like the fire power of the new age stuff, but.. i also love the idea of

bolt action simplicity of the old girls and just plain old reliability and accuracy.

also the smle is a very attractive rifle..all that timber appeals to me and i just

love em full stop....in a non fettish, twisted way  :)

   Firepower don't mean a darn thing when the thing won't fire... (that  comment was not intended against you directly)
I've seen the future and I don't like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shotgunminister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2006 at 1:37am
Originally posted by dave h dave h wrote:

day off from school.  Something even Dave would enjoy

 My oath ! I enjoied many days off school ! Infact they had trouble getting me to stay there ! Might be one of the reasons I do what I do for a living

 Dave
I meant you might enjoy the -60 F temps..
I've seen the future and I don't like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2006 at 6:51am

 

 Thats very true shotgunminister, no arguements from me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shotgunminister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2006 at 1:49pm
Yep, I rate relibility first, simplicity second and firepower third,
I've seen the future and I don't like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2006 at 2:31pm
I meant you might enjoy the -60 F temps..

Mate anything below about  20deg C & I start to go into hibernation  I hate the cold ! -60F  no you blokes can have that to your selves


     Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shotgunminister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2006 at 9:09am
I've seen the future and I don't like it.
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