Print Page | Close Window

What have I got? UK WW2 Training rifle?

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Info for New Enfield Owners
Forum Description: Are you new to Enfields? Check out some of the how-to's submitted by our members!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10040
Printed Date: July 03 2020 at 1:24pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: What have I got? UK WW2 Training rifle?
Posted By: Nick58
Subject: What have I got? UK WW2 Training rifle?
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 7:39am
I'm guessing it's a former British Army training rifle from around WW2 or early 50s but to be honest I know nothing about rifles & I'd be interested to know more.
 
Thanks for your time
Nick
 
 


-------------
Nick



Replies:
Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 9:35am
Much earlier than WWII. Victorian times actually.

It is a Martini Henry carbine.

It is marked as being ex British service.

All the stamped markings on the wood and metal will tell a story.
I can read the rifle and tell you a tale if you get some decent sharp pictures posted.

It is an interesting carbine. Quite collectable and has some value even if missing a few bits.


-------------
.
.
Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 9:40am
Some kind of Martini cavalry carbine?
We have a bunch of Martini guys on here they'll be along shortly.



-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 9:40am
That rifle is much, much older than what you think. That would be late 1800's to early 1900's. You need to post up all the pictures you can of all the markings you see and you will get a lot of help on this. Just looking at the butt I can tell you that the two arrows facing each other is a Sold Out of Service mark.


Posted By: Sidneyw
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 10:09am
Love the movie Zulu (1964).

-------------
Sidney


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 2:15pm
Wow, thank you very much for the insights  - a very different outcome to what I was expecting. 
Some detail pics attached 
Dates seem to be 1876 and 1894




-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 2:19pm


-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 2:24pm


-------------
Nick


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Sidneyw Sidneyw wrote:

Love the movie Zulu (1964).

Funny (& true) tale!
I worked for a "Mr Bromhead" who was an ex Gloucester.
Not "Jones 34" though.
Confused



-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 6:10pm
simon's got it ,BTW he is one of our resident experts on these older vintage rifles , it is a martini carbine and i would be proud to have it , the earlier date is a mfgr date the later is an issue date , this one saw service and is in pretty good shape for her age , what a lovely find , 


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: October 03 2019 at 7:06pm
Very nice!


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 2:17am
The dated marking disc on the butt suggests that the carbine could be one of the Martini Metford conversions. For an accurate identification, how about a clear photo of the whole carbine and also a shot of anything inscribed on the left side of the action. What is the caliber and to what range is the rear sight marked? 

As I see it, if the rifle was originally a Martini Henry dated 1876, something could be contradictory.      


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 3:30am
These are the best shots I can get of the whole piece, the wood and metal are very dark

-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 3:37am
I'm afraid I don't really know what "What is the caliber and to what range is the rear sight marked?" means, although I've just spotted some marking beneath the sight that I hadn't seen before. (This is all taking me a long way from thinking it was something a relative had 'forgotten' to hand back after his National Service in the early 1950s and thinking I'd just ask out of interest before handing it in to be destroyed!  :)  )


-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 3:39am


-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 3:45am


-------------
Nick


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 6:26am
The options are now greatly reduced, but I need to know the caliber.  Measure the bore at the muzzle. Which is it nearer: either .450" or .303"?    

Am I correct in the date on the right of the action being 1876?  Is there nothing inscribed on the left hand side?

Terry


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 9:16am
Hi Terry
Bore (by which I'm taking the internal diameter of end of the barrel - apologies, but I'm a total novice about firearms!) is about 0.470 inches.

My reading of the right hand side is
VR
ENFIELD
1876
(something I can't make out possibly a cross or an arrow - or maybe just a scratch)
II
2

The right hand side is fairly heavily pitted & I can't make out any particular markings beyond the small double arrow head. There appears to be a screw head embedded underneath another screw (which I assume is from alterations/repair during it's life).

I appreciate your time helping with this
Thanks
Nick


-------------
Nick


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 7:26pm
terry lee is the other expert in this area i would have noted , i see he has jumped in with help , a most interesting find to be sure , 


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: October 04 2019 at 11:03pm
Nick, Obviously still in its original caliber of .577/450 and not a conversion.  One final question: Does its barrel band have a bayonet lug similar to the one in the attached photo?Terry

 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 05 2019 at 8:42am
"There appears to be a screw head embedded underneath another screw (which I assume is from alterations/repair during it's life)."
That may be a form of locking screw! Is it like this? (top right, the small screw fits into a cutout on the big one so it can't unscrew.)



-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: October 05 2019 at 9:22am
The arrow is likely to be the War Departments 'Broad Arrow' seen on any military issued item in the UK. 
The double arrow is the same thing stamped twice forming a star. This is the 'Sold out of service' mark applied when a rifle is desposed of usually by sale.


-------------
Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 05 2019 at 2:16pm


-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 05 2019 at 2:23pm
No bands, but a hole all the way through. 




-------------
Nick


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 05 2019 at 3:13pm
I think its supposed to drop into the cut at 7 o'clock & lay flush to stop the shaft rotating?
Is that the end of the shaft for the operating lever?


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 7:45am
Nick, Your final photo was what I needed! Obviously, nothing can replace a personal examination, but I'm pretty sure that your rifle is a Martini Henry Artillery Carbine Mk II.  These were converted from the Martini Henry Mk II Rifles in the early 1890s and are very uncommon in South Africa. Unfortunately, the condition of yours is not too good and it also has the wrong front barrel band. If I was in your shoes,  I'd have I'd have it professionally cleaned by somebody with respect for antique firearms who knows what he is doing. I would NOT have it refinished!      


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 8:34am
Terry
Thank you so much for your time and input,  really appreciate it.
It's been a fascinating experience. 
Appreciate the advice about cleaning too (I assume it's the same as coins getting the metal professionally cleaned, I won't be soaking them in Coke LOL ) .



-------------
Nick


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 9:04am
I think that terrylee has pegged it pretty good.

A lot of the story will be revealed if the butt disk can be deciphered.

The arm wears 'The Twin Sisters' condemned mark on the nocks flat and on the wood work. The symbol is two block capital Rs back to back. It was an Ordnance marking, next step was to scrap the rifle or make DP.

It is missing a barrel band. No big deal. Easy to find a replacement.

Gently clean it, nothing more. Its value lies in its age, its completeness and its untouched state. If you get too enthusiastic about cleaning it up, you will actually destroy its collector value.

Unless you knew exactly what you were doing, I would not attempt to dismantle anything, even to clean it. Leave it be.

Just clean it with a soft cloth and gun oil (3 in 1 oil is good) for the metal. Raw linseed oil (cricket bat oil) and a soft cloth for the wood.

It has seen its days as service to the Crown. As a condemned arm, it would not be restorable back to shooting condition. Now it is a collectable artifact and needs to be in the hands of somebody who will be its custodian and continue its care.

Great find. Dont toss it. You have something that has value. You are going to be surprised at how much it might be worth. 


-------------
.
.
Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 9:20am
Remove the rust and grime with care, whilst respecting its age. The rifle's condition is part of its history. When this has been done, the path of final restoration, if appropriate, will be more obvious.
Naturally, don't waste money if little can be achieved. I also support the view that 10% original finish is worth a lot more than 100% refinish.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Nick58 Nick58 wrote:

I'm afraid I don't really know what "What is the caliber and to what range is the rear sight marked?" means, although I've just spotted some marking beneath the sight that I hadn't seen before. (This is all taking me a long way from thinking it was something a relative had 'forgotten' to hand back after his National Service in the early 1950s and thinking 

I'd just ask out of interest before handing it in to be destroyed!  :)  )
What is the actual concern to all your questions if all you intend to do with it is have it destroyed??? A waste of time on our part to answer your questions if the rifle is on it's way to have all of its history erased...


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 2:59pm
Absolutely, appreciate your input on this 


-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 3:01pm
Terry
Thanks for your time and patience opening up the background on this. Really appreciate it.
Nick


-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 3:06pm
Goosic - Apologies if I've wasted your time reading this thread.
For the people who have guided me from total novice to understanding more of what I have stumbled across, I  thank you for guiding me.


-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 3:13pm
Thanks eca
What started as a 'throw away ' [NOT literally!!] question turned onto a fascinating journey, thanks for your input. Appreciate it .



-------------
Nick


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: October 06 2019 at 8:20pm
i think what goosic was getting at was that you appreciate what you have , give it the respect and dignity that both simon and terry lee suggest , its an antique but a fine one and worthy of preservation - gooosic was not wanting [nor anyone else] to see it desecrated by a "refinish" to modern look , it will never be an 'out the factory door item again' but it has the heritage of earning our respect for what it is now , he wants you to clean and preserve her - just as everyone else have suggested 


Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 1:19am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by Nick58 Nick58 wrote:

I'm afraid I don't really know what "What is the caliber and to what range is the rear sight marked?" means, although I've just spotted some marking beneath the sight that I hadn't seen before. (This is all taking me a long way from thinking it was something a relative had 'forgotten' to hand back after his National Service in the early 1950s and thinking 

I'd just ask out of interest before handing it in to be destroyed!  :)  )
What is the actual concern to all your questions if all you intend to do with it is have it destroyed??? A waste of time on our part to answer your questions if the rifle is on it's way to have all of its history erased...

You don't need to have it destroyed. It is an antique firearm and you can own it under section 58/2 of the Firearms act 1968 as amended providing that it is held a a 'curiosity or ornament'.

That is UK law. Goosic wouldn't probabley be arare of or strang laws.


-------------
Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 2:19am
(thinking I'd just ask out of interest before handing it in to be destroyed!  :)  )
[/QUOTE]
This is the quote that is bothering me and correct me if I am wrong. The OP states specifically that he is going to hand it in to be destroyed. 
You have a rifle that is extremely old and you ask various questions as to what it is. The folk here are giving you their expert answers and advice as to how to clean it up so it can possibly have an extended future once more.  To simply have it destroyed is more or less a slap in the face to those who took the time to respond to your question. If it is your intention to hand it in to be destroyed,might a better option be to gift it to someone else who will cherish it. 



Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 9:14am
Goosic.

He is in the UK and here if you are found in possession of a firearm without the appropriate authority you face a jail sentence. 
The only way out is to hand it into the police..
HOWEVER. this particular piece comes under an exemption in the law ( Section 58/2 ) which allows certain guns to be kept providing there is no intention to use them. Unlike some countries it is not just the age that exempts them it is also the type and calibre. This gun fit the criterion.

Don't try to understand our laws, we don't.Wink



-------------
Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 11:11am
Nick58. No apologies are necessary. My question to you was not asked in anger. Total shock and dismay that you are turning it in to be destroyed. Just does not make sense to get a history lesson on a particular item just to have it become one with a furnace or chopsaw after the fact.
  Stanforth.  I just read that 58/2 law. You guys across the pond are getting  shafted bad.
The provision for shotguns/ guns with more then one barrel  and air rifles is very confusing to me to say the least. The hoops you have to jump through just to have a (looking at gun)...


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 12:04pm
Having re-read Nicks comments regarding having it destroyed. I read it in a slightly different context.
I understood it to mean that he had been given what he believed to be a WW2 training rifle and expected to be required to hand it in. Out of interest he asked a few questions and now realised that it was something special, and due to the age of rifle; it can be kept legally.
I have enjoyed the input of our resident specialists!


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 3:09pm
Nick,  The immediate predecessor to your rifle, the Mk I Martini Henry Artillery Carbine. In fact, it and the cavalry version were termed the Interchangeable Carbine. By merely changing nose-caps and adding/removing swivels either could be converted into the other.  





Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: October 07 2019 at 7:42pm
i get t goosic , i was not trying to downplay the loss , i was hoping to appeal to the sentiments , 

stanforth - you are correct , we do not understand the "laws" that would do that to a fine antique and we never will - i feel badly on so many levels on this , 

we wont let anyone take ours either , the brits tried once , or twice , the dems are going to have the same handful of trouble - but they can say what they want , its a FREE country and they have their first amendment rights here - we have ours as well ,  its the second , BTW my guns have killed less people in my lifetime than ted kennedys car did ...........

OH AND THANK YOU terry lee that is one fine example as well as some very interesting information , i would love to get my hands on one of these but i have never had the opportunity , 


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: November 21 2019 at 1:23pm
Precisely that Zed

-------------
Nick


Posted By: Nick58
Date Posted: November 21 2019 at 1:27pm
Thanks again terrylee
As you'll have gathered firearms aren't really my thing, but your comments have been really interesting and even I can appreciate the beauty of your example. 


-------------
Nick



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net