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1917 LSA 410 - Pic Heavy - Completed

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10466
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 8:02am
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Topic: 1917 LSA 410 - Pic Heavy - Completed
Posted By: Bear43
Subject: 1917 LSA 410 - Pic Heavy - Completed
Date Posted: April 02 2020 at 5:20am
A couple weeks ago I got 5 of the Enfield 410 muskets from Century Arms. I have only taken this one apart so far. This 1917 LSA was converted to a 410 in 1931 by Ishapore. This is one of the Poor/Incomplete condition ones. The handguards were gone, as was the bolt. Everything else is there. It was a job getting it apart as some of the screws were seized in. It took a lot of penetrating oil and force but nothing broke, thankfully. I took pictures of the worst of the rust on it. The butt has a crack that needs attention and the screw holes for the butt plate were rotted but it is fixable. The foreend is in really good shape. Internally it is fine. Externally the worst damage was from when I removed the nut for the rear sight protector. The nut was rusted to the wood and took a piece with it. Nothing major though. I have a bolt and handguards for it so this one will be back in action again. Enjoy the pictures.















Replies:
Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: April 02 2020 at 8:07am
Good project for you!

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: April 02 2020 at 9:24am
looks well on its way with a good basis to work with , keep us posted on progress , 


Posted By: flatheadsal
Date Posted: April 02 2020 at 10:44am
just curious why you didn't start with one of the better ones, building up with parts from the worse ones if needed? nice projects though good luck


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: April 02 2020 at 10:55am
They are all in similar condition, I just grabbed the first one off the pile. I have yet to take the other 4 apart.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 5:57pm
Tonight I started cleaning on the LSA. I took Shamu's advice and scrubbed the butt with Murphy's Oil Soap. I mixed it rather heavy and put some elbow grease into it. I like how it ended up. It is still dark but the grease and grime are gone. There are several repair dowels and I think a couple may be for dealing with that nasty crack. I'll look closer later but the butt is definitely salvageable.









Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: April 03 2020 at 8:11pm
it looks intact , i think you can save it , 


Posted By: Marco1010
Date Posted: April 04 2020 at 12:23am
I must say you are determined to bring these rifles back to something respectable ! but they sure do look like they have seen decades of hard use.
I guess these were originally used a bit like the Greener police shotguns that were sold to egypt. designed to be unattractive to steal due to being single shot and using a cartridge that would be near impossible to source.
I have only seen one of these myself and it was in very good condition, but rebored to use the .410 standard shotshe!!.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: April 04 2020 at 8:43am
I do enjoy projects, I find working on them relaxing. Plus the sense of achievement when you get one done is pretty satisfying. These have certainly seen better days and hopefully they will see many more once I'm done with them. Once I get them all cleaned up and operational I do plan to get 1 or 2 reamed out to take the 3" she!! and leave the rest as is.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 5:31am
Slowly I have been working on the bits for the LSA. I took the small parts and after soaking them in penetrating oil for a week I put them in a pot and boiled them for an hour. Now I am working through them using lots of oil and 0000 steel wool to clean them up. They are coming out pretty nice in my opinion.





Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 5:51am
Very nice.

I had no idea about boiling parts to clean them.

Very cool.


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 6:03am
It's a great way to get the nasty old grease off or at least softened up. I started doing that when the Yugo SKS's were hitting the country to get the cosmoline off the small parts.


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 6:38am
Learned something new today, just do not tell Hoadie.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 8:00am
i would say that is working really well , parts look like they are in pretty good condition under the crud , 


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 9:37am
Good job.

Another bonus from boiling parts to clean them up is that any red rust on them will turn black.


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 9:43am
I am learning to much today.

Running out of memory space.


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 10:52am
Originally posted by englishman_ca englishman_ca wrote:

Good job.

Another bonus from boiling parts to clean them up is that any red rust on them will turn black.

That's the other reason I boil them, it's the easiest way to deal with active rust on there.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: April 14 2020 at 7:57pm
sent you a PM ive owed you for some time regarding your book , do get in touch , 


Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: April 17 2020 at 3:54am
great project, happy to read this thread.

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Posted By: Marco1010
Date Posted: April 25 2020 at 3:46pm
Hi Bear

they came up nice after boiling the parts. Are you going to oil black them ?
I do this with almost all of the parts other than bolt, barrel & receiver.
Makes them all consistent in colour.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 5:05am
No, I don't plan to do oil blackening. I've never tried it before. I know how to do it, just have never actually done it myself.


Posted By: Marco1010
Date Posted: April 26 2020 at 1:53pm
I use a 50/50 acid bath with citric and tartaric acid to clean all the smaller parts, then heat up till glowing a bit orange then drop into boiled linseed oil.
works a treat. the used BLO is good for oiling stock afterwards.
Since you have that batch of 410's be a good project to try the blackening on one. Word of advice though, do it outside. the hot oil smell will linger and nothing is worth a grumpy wife complaining about our hobbies !!

Must Say enjoying watch how you go with those 410's.
I'm desperately in need of a new project myself during lock-down and a bit in envy.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 2:38am
Now that I am slowed down a bit with a hernia I have more time to do lighter duty, so it has been back to the LSA. I cleaned up a bunch more parts last night. I am very pleased with how they are turning out. And yes, this musket did come with a modified Mk I nosecap.











Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 3:15am

Your cleaning method is certainly doing the job.

Great work.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 4:03am
Thanks! The biggest issue with this cleaning routine is it takes so much time. I have a lot of that at the moment though.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 4:08am
I’m impressed how well the boiling works Bear.  Does it look like that coming out of the water?  Wipe with oil after?  


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 4:19am
Oh no, it looks terrible coming out of the water. Those pics of the dirty parts is after boiling but sitting with the oil and steel wool makes the crud vanish and you get that result.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 5:38am
OK, now I get it!  Very good result!

I’ve used an Ultrasonic cleaner, I turn up the heat on it and comes out really clean.  Then wipe down with oiled cloth.  


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 6:37am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

OK, now I get it!  Very good result!

I’ve used an Ultrasonic cleaner, I turn up the heat on it and comes out really clean.  Then wipe down with oiled cloth.  

How big is your Ultrasonic cleaner? I am looking for one that can take a barrel assembly.


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 8:25am
Not that large, about 12 x 8 inches. 

I removed the barrel on my LB Mk 1/2 so I could clean the receiver in the UT cleaner, and then blue it.  Would have been a pain if it still had the barrel attached.  It’s incredible how much crud came off.  




Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 8:29am
Is there another way to clean a barreled receiver electrically?

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 3:01pm
You could probably immerse the receiver in a UT cleaner and just have the barrel sticking out one end.  The barrel is easy to clean in the normal manner, it’s the receiver with all its edges, corners, nooks and crannies that is hard to clean.  


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 5:53pm
I have had great success using electrolysis on musket barrels, for cleaning the bore and for cleaning the exterior.

It is so easy, you just wont believe it!

Takes me about half an hour to set up an electrolysis rig from scratch and get it running for a barrel or barreled action. 
My tank is made from cardboard and duct tape lined with a black garbage bag. My electrolyte is a water solution made using just a dash of dish washing machine crystals. I use a regular 12v battery charger.

 It removes all dirt and corrosion down to a molecular level yet does not touch the parent steel. For my needs it is perfect in that it leaves the bare metal a flat finish dark steel grey. I take it from there for creating a patina.
You probably already have all the stuff needed to put a rig together. It costs next to nothing to do. 

After an hour in the tank, you will be simply amazed at how much crap comes off. The corrosion lifts and turns to a black slime, so you might need to pull the barrel out a couple of times to get the sludge off with a scrub brush under the tap before returning it to the tank.

Same process that museums use to clean ship wreck cannon.

Works great on rusted old tools and seized auto parts. .


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: May 02 2020 at 6:12pm
Thanks!

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 03 2020 at 12:43pm
Paddy, I will take pictures and show how the electrolysis does. I decided to give it a whirl. All I had to buy was some washing soda to put in the water, I had everything else. After what Englishman said I decided to give it a try on the LSA barreled receiver. I only paid $40 for this musket so I figured it was cheap enough to experiment with.


Posted By: Mna28
Date Posted: May 04 2020 at 7:36pm
Pretty cool, look forward to seeing how this turns out.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 05 2020 at 8:57pm
I got the barreled receiver cleaned up. It took a lot of time to get done but it turned out nice. I used electrolysis and followed that with a thorough scrubbing with very hot water. I let it dry for a day then boiled it for an hour. I followed that with several hours spent using a lot of oil and 0000 steel wool. The downside is the paint got stripped off but there was so much rust it needed to be dealt with aggressively. There is significant pitting on several areas of the outside of the barrel but nothing that makes it unsafe to shoot. The chamber and bore are absolutely pristine. So, this one is totally serviceable.





Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 10:11am
After a delay waiting to get some parts I am very close to finishing this project. On Saturday my bolt heads came in and I got to work fitting the bolt. 4 of the 5 bolt heads measured within the spec I was looking for and the 3rd one I tried clocked in properly. She passes nicely on the .074" gauge. Checked locking lug fitment and was very surprised to get nice even bearing on both lugs right from the start. Easiest bolt fitment I've ever had. Now to just finish cleaning and patching the woodwork and she will be done.




Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 10:24am
Good job!

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 10:25am
Where do you place the 12 volt charger leads? Just dangle them in the solution?

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 10:35am
You put the positive on the metal to sacrifice to pull the rust off and the negative to the weapon. I had the positive above the water solution but the negative was in it.


Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 11:18am
OK got it, thx.

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 11:30am
Just be aware that if you hook up and submerge the +ve clip of the battery charger, it will start to dissolve too. 

I always use leader wires and make the charger connections outside of the tank.


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 17 2020 at 5:48pm
I cleaned up the foreend this evening with a good scrubbing with Murphy's Oil Soap. It cleaned up pretty good. I do have some small repairs to do to this and the butt but nothing major.




Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: May 18 2020 at 6:40am
Murphy's is awesome stuff.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: May 18 2020 at 7:00am
I am very pleased with how well it does. I did 1/2 cup in a gallon of water and it pulled the grease and grime right off.


Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: May 18 2020 at 8:17am
I have used Murphy’s oil soap.  It does an awesome job on woods. 

 I just got thru with a 1918 Carl Gustav Mauser that the woods were really dirty, and they came out really nice.  Took three attempts with a tooth brush to get all the dirt off to my satisfaction,  Followed that with two coats of Kwiw neutral, and it’s done!


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Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 2:36pm
I am almost done with this project. All metal is cleaned, replacement parts are on hand, bolt is fitted properly and headspaced, wood is cleaned and repairs made and oiled. I just need to put it together. It's taken a while but it's been fun and interesting.




Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 4:39pm
Did the gun have volley sights?  I thought the fore-end had the look of it, however can’t really tell.  If it did, perhaps were removed by the refurbishment in ‘31?

I’m looking forward to seeing it when you’ve got it done!


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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 06 2020 at 6:32pm
im looking forward to seeing it , will you bore it to US 410 or leave it brit ? 


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: June 07 2020 at 3:59am
Whitjr, this one did not have volley sights on it. The fore-end is the Mk III style with the pot-belly with extra material left so it could be cut and fitted with volley sights though.

A square, I plan to have this one reamed to US 410. It's a complete mismatch so it is a good candidate for that. If one of the matching ones turns out good I will leave those in the Brit 410.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 07 2020 at 6:52pm
great idea , i think you are on track here - and youll get to shoot up that 410 too , it would be nice if one was original enough to keep original , but then pick the o0nes you want to ge as most indian conversions were messed with in some way even before they got to the shotgun stage , 


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 1:22pm
I finally completed this 410 musket. It took a lot of time and a few parts but I am very pleased with how it turned out. All told I have about $140 into this, including the purchase price, at this point. I can live with that.








Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 14 2020 at 9:35pm
yup - i could live with that investment as well , it turned out great , when you ream it it should serve you well in the garden and be a fine example of what these are , there are times i think i should have kept mine then i remember im in the center of town - even if it doesnt look like it in my photos - they frown on discharging weapons in town here - no matter the varmint im shooting , and i got a lot of em , 


Posted By: Marco1010
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 1:23am
That came out real nice, love the dark aged and service worn woodwork, can't replicate that !

Great effort there.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 3:59am
Just had a look at your original photos; you've done a great job on that.



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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 4:17am
Very well done!


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 6:27am
Thanks guys. As soon as the weather cooperates better I will take it outside for some better pictures. The wind has been terrible the last few days and makes trying to do anything outside a hassle.


Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: June 15 2020 at 4:22pm
Very nice.  Beautiful job, and indeed a rare rifle/shotgun!

How does the bore look?


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Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 6:12am
The bore is pristine on this. Bright and shiny. The only thing it had was a lot of dried grease inside it.


Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 8:46am
Good job Bear!!

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually



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