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Smle #1 mk3

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Category: Enfields
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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10658
Printed Date: August 10 2020 at 11:28pm
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Topic: Smle #1 mk3
Posted By: BIGDOG
Subject: Smle #1 mk3
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 8:11pm
hi I’m looking for information pertaining to specific marking RR marking on the Knox form thanks.





Replies:
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 9:56pm
A stylized R on the barrel Knox form means: Found rusty by armourer,to be checked by Armourer. Two R's means:Unsafe barrel, usually drill purpose for cadets.

Source material: Ian Skennertons book, The Lee Enfield 


Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 10:40pm
the barrel looks excellent, it was cleaned out by Mr Nick Harvey as it was full of grease/wax, the rifle is in mint condition I’ve never fired it.

I know 2 R’s opposing each other means condemned.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 11:30pm
Welcome to the forum.
Has the rifle been restored? I ask, because in the photo I don't see any wear at all on the receiver bolt guide rail area.
The style of the RR does not look like a military marking to me; but I am not an expert. Hopefully one of or more experienced members can confirm if it is a standard RR for rust or something else.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 11:38pm
If you trust your life to Mr. Nick Harvey and he has signed off on the rifle being in sound condition? I myself would want the rifle rechecked.
The following photo shows your pictured R. Further reading indicates that a R superimposed over another R states that it is unsafe and to be used for cadets as a drill purpose rifle. You asked a question and I found an answer to it from one Mr. Ian Skennerton. Take it for what it is worth or not,the choice is yours. Keep it and cherish it as is but do not fire it...


Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 11:52pm
as far as I’m aware it’s never been fired prior to me owning it a friend owned it and never fired it, I’ve  had it for 20 plus years
.




Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 16 2020 at 11:55pm
I spotted something else. The picture you supply shows a nice slot cut into the the receiver and into the pressure relief ports. That rifle has been deactivated for a reason. My best guess from looking at the metal surface that I can see does in fact show a mint condition, appears to never have been fired No1Mk111 rifle. The remaining guess is because it was deemed unsafe to fire and stamped as such and had metal removed from a stress point in add to the discouragement of wanting to fire it...


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 12:12am

To repeat - this would appear to be a condemned rifle, in which case it is 'unsafe' and must not be fired. Maybe the 'reversed' R stamp was unavailable and so it was marked R R in lieu.

OR

Is it Rusty and marked as such, then found to be even more rusty and given another R for good measure.

Either way I'd want it checking over before firing it.


From "Armourers Markings"



Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 3:56am
Welcome to the forum from North Carolina, USA.

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Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 4:07am
this Is a better Pic most smle have these same pressure holes if that’s what they are.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 4:12am
Thanks for posting the copy of the page explaining the "R".
Did not have muy book handy when I replied earlier.
Need to see more photos of the vent hole area and the rifle in general.



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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 5:41am
Good eye, Goosic. If learned members suggest having the rifle thoroughly checked out by a professional that knows Lee Enfields, I would definitely listen. In the end, it's your decision. 


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 6:46am
Originally posted by BIGDOG BIGDOG wrote:

this Is a better Pic most smle have these same pressure holes if that’s what they are.


I don't see any problem with that gas-vent.

Typical example.

The Ishapore can easily be identified as they only have a single hole gas vent.
Others used three-overlapping holes to form the vent.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 10:08am
Trick of the light then. Still does not change the fact that it has been stamped from an actual Enfield rifle Armourer and was found unsafe by an actual Enfield rifle armourer. You definitely have a very nice LOOKING AT rifle. Leave it that way. 


Posted By: Marco1010
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 6:01pm
Its possible a perfectly good rifle was written of due to the need of supplying a drill purpose rifle. Army bureaucracy works in ways we would struggle to understand. This being the case, the proper "set in Concrete" proceedure would be to stamp the rifle just as if it had a multitude of problems.
But as everyone states above, if in doubt get it professionally checked out.
No one test fires any newly acquired second hand rifle without some caution.
If still unsure, then err on the side of caution and remove the firing pin to prevent harm.

There is good reason for the existence of proof loads being done.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 7:11pm
 Find a knowledgeable gunsmith to fully inspect it, borescope the barrel (rust and pitting is very obvious), remove the barreled action from the forend check external underside of barrel for rust/pitting, check headspace, bolt lug contact, etc.  Even then, I’d be nervous firing this rifle without first finding out that those two R’s actually represent.  If the barrel is not rusted, it means something else...


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 7:45pm
According to Ian Skennerton britrifles. One R like the one pictured from The Lee Enfield book indicates that an Enfield Armourer found rust inside the barrel.  If there is a R superimposed over another R just like the one found on the OP's rifle,the barrel is unsafe and used for drill purposes only.  According to Ian Skennerton. 


Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 8:02pm
I’ve made an appointment for next we to visit a gunsmith that specialises in military smle restorations, he wasn’t all that concerned with the double R stamp as long as the headspace and barrel looks good it will be fine, we all know there’s some absolutely junk smle's that shoot perfectly fine so I’ll have it check for peace of mind.

Thanks for your input 🍻🍻🍻


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 17 2020 at 10:23pm
I wish you all the best on your endeavors with the rifle. Please keep us informed as to your gunsmiths findings. You had mentioned that your friend had it for twenty years and never fired it and you have had it for twenty years and have never fired it.  The 1944 date on it makes the rifle 76 years old and it appears to have never been fired. Just curious as to why the sudden urge to,(for lack of a better term) pop the cherry on this unfired and untested weapon. 


Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 12:18am
to be honest there’s no real urge, long story short I’ve had a serious back injury at work 5 operations later still not real good so to be honest I’m bored as bat sh*t sitting around home, I use to Shoot military service rifle comp many years back with another smle #1 mk3 that I owned and sold and thought I would look into going back to target shooting with my smle which I first started looking into the various markings on it and started to ask myself about possible safety concerns.

That’s my story dude, I thank all of your input cheers 🍻


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 4:03am
If your gunsmith says it's "good to go!" maybe he should take the first shot? 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 4:16am
That’s a good suggestion HT.  


Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 4:17am
ha,  I didn’t know the term “bats#*t” was used in the “Land Down Unda”....

Good luck with it!  That stock looks very nice.  

Another option is that if the rifle is truly unsafe, you could use the stock on a barreled action that is in good shape, then have your competion rifle.  


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Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 6:03am
Aussie slang boring as bat 🦇 sh*t 😝 at worst I’ll have it re barrelled, it’s no big deal it’s just such a beating piece #1 I love sharing it’s beauty #2 I love shooting 30 caliber nice smooth solid punch 🥊 hopefully I’ll have some luck with Mr Thomas Smith next week, I’ll keep you posted as to his findings.


Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 6:04am
ClapClapClapLOL


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 7:37am
Are these markings made with a punch or electro pencil?  The back to back R marking in Skennerton appears as a standard font and not stylized like the Rust marking.  And supposed to be marked as such on the action body, butt and forend.  Who knows, maybe someone’s initials!  

Do let us know what the gunsmith finds.  Maybe he will volunteer to test fire it for you.  






Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 8:41am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Are these markings made with a punch or electro pencil?  The back to back R marking in Skennerton appears as a standard font and not stylized like the Rust marking.  


The "unsafe" R marking is very stylised as per the extract from the Armourers Manual.

Repeat of previous attachment :



Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 8:54am

From another guide to markings :

Hand sketched illustrations





Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 11:35am
I still think it's odd that this rifle has absolutely no signs of wear on the receiver bolt guide. That makes me think it's been refinished.
It's a good looking rifle; so let's see what comes from the safety inspection.
Please keep us informed.

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 2:32pm

I'm not sure that any 'gunsmith' is likely to have the knowledge or equipment to confirm that the action is 'safe'.

A brief comment from Peter Laidler on the subject :

Oh, they looked very nice but what had gone on under the surface was a matter of conjecture. Would YOU fire one? I’ve been an Armourer for a couple of years and while I or your local gunsmith could examine one and give it a bright clean bill of health, would YOU trust it. NO, I wouldn’t either!

And how does he know this? An Engineering Graduate, Capt. Peter Laidler was, until his retirement, the senior Armourer in the British Army since serving his apprenticeship between January 1963 and 66. He was the senior technical Officer at the Small Arms School at Warminster. And oversaw the introduction of the current L59 series of DP rifle. Or he just guessed. Pick what you think suits!

Unless any markings have been 'cancelled' (barred out) or, the offending part replaced then I would take the markings as still applicable.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:


I'm not sure that any 'gunsmith' is likely to have the knowledge or equipment to confirm that the action is 'safe'.

A brief comment from Peter Laidler on the subject :

Oh, they looked very nice but what had gone on under the surface was a matter of conjecture. Would YOU fire one? I’ve been an Armourer for a couple of years and while I or your local gunsmith could examine one and give it a bright clean bill of health, would YOU trust it. NO, I wouldn’t either!

And how does he know this? An Engineering Graduate, Capt. Peter Laidler was, until his retirement, the senior Armourer in the British Army since serving his apprenticeship between January 1963 and 66. He was the senior technical Officer at the Small Arms School at Warminster. And oversaw the introduction of the current L59 series of DP rifle. Or he just guessed. Pick what you think suits!
Totally agree with your post. 


Posted By: Marco1010
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 5:18pm
I recently had a conversation with a retired army armourer who was saying that in the late 70's and early 80's they still had new unissued NO 4 rifles in the grease wrap. Some were taken out for ceremonial Parade use (ANZAC day etc) fitted with nice chromed bayonets, and polished to a high standard. BUT Written Off as DP rifles to prevent any squadie from being tempted to fire them or get then dirty. Same applied to parade rifles issued to cadet units. firing pins were often filed back/ removed just in case.


Posted By: WilliamS
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 6:59pm
Personally, if a customer brought in a rifle marked Z, ZF, DP, U/S, RR etc, unless I had the gauges and standards to check over everything, they would be signing a document outlining that the rifle was unsafe to fire before I handed it back to them.  And I keep a copy of those on hand in case the customer fires an unsafe firearm after it goes through the shop.  Someone with more Enfield-specific knowledge and experience than I determined there was a problem with the rifle and without the right inspection tools I am not going to second guess them or risk my job and maybe a criminal case on the off chance it was an OK riflestamped for DP at need. 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Are these markings made with a punch or electro pencil?  The back to back R marking in Skennerton appears as a standard font and not stylized like the Rust marking.  


The "unsafe" R marking is very stylised as per the extract from the Armourers Manual.

Repeat of previous attachment :



Right, and the markings on this rifle look nothing like what is shown in Skennerton as an unsafe rifle.  I’m not suggesting the rifle is safe to fire, merely pointing out that these markings are two stylized letter R’s In the same orientation that resemble the “Found Rusty by Armourer” marking and not the “Unsafe barrel, usually drill purpose for Cadets” marking.  

So, if you really want to fire the rifle, strap it down to a bench, tie a long cord to the trigger and shoot a few proof rounds thru it.  Then send it for a mag particle inspection.  Check for cracks in the bolt lugs.  




Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 8:13pm
I had a friend who bought a genuine 1941 issued Remington Rand 1911. The gun store owner told him it was a wall hanger and to never fire it. The store owner made him sign a waiver not holding him or the store liable if he did fire it. The friend took it home put an aftermarket barrel and firing pin in it along with an extended slide guide. Took it out to the desert,set a target up,loaded the mag,racked a round,pulled  the trigger and immediately lost a thumb,forefinger and ring finger. He was warned and still went out fired it regardless. 
If the gunsmith,(visually) finds nothing wrong with this rifle then bravo. Unless you have the equipment to evaluate the receiver and barrel for finite stress cracks internally you you have absolutely no certainty that the rifle is sound. There are the various what ifs out there but why take a chance? britrifles suggests clamping it in a fixture and firing it remotely.  Fair enough. Why take a chance of having a very nice looking rifle end up as firewood kindling though.  The simple resolve would be to keep it as is. According to the OP,between him and his friend, no one knows if it has ever been fired in a minimum of 4 decades. Leave it alone and get a rifle you know is safe to fire.


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

The simple resolve would be to keep it as is. According to the OP,between him and his friend, no one knows if it has ever been fired in a minimum of 4 decades. Leave it alone and get a rifle you know is safe to fire.


Agreed 100%


Another little story regarding DP rifles from Peter Laidler in 2008

I have mentioned ‘Britain’ here but while I can’t include Canada, I can certainly include New Zealand and Australia with a degree of certainty plus India, whose Army liaison Officer at work ran his eyes over this paper for me. I have also mentioned DP too and in this respect, it isn’t meant to mean ‘DRILL’ in the parade square context, it is meant to indicate practicing your rifle ‘training drills’. And it’s not only rifles that were downgraded to DP either because in the days of the old ‘number’ radio sets, many of these were classified as DP sets too.

When I read about DP rifles in various places, I get the impression from the armchair experts that they are formulated by someone in the Armourers shop who decides that he’ll make/convert a few rifles in order to …………. NOTHING could be more dangerous nor further from the truth. One other thing too. Do not mix up DP rifles with the ‘higher’ standard (?) ‘sub-standard’ rifles that trickled out of service in the early 50’s. At least there were gauging limits for those!

When need exists for such rifles, the idea is put up to the Brigade Training Major for example and ‘staffed’ up the chain of command where a decision on the matter will be reached after due questioning of all concerned. I’ll take a fictitious unit training for an operational role in bongo-bongo land. The attrition rate of the weapons on the training team, due to the arduous nature of the training is critical is such that they need 20 rifles and 6 GPMG’s that can be used and abused. Authority is given for them to be issued these ‘extra’ DP classified weapons from Ordnance stockpiles. So, in the normal course of events, these are issued from training stocks.

But, let’s say the DP stocks aren’t available, then authority will be issued FROM THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE no less, for such weapons to be made available. Ordnance stores would then select from returned weapons that are deemed to be ‘ZF’ (that’s an Armourers technical explanation that I won’t go into) or BER (Beyond Economic Repair) to select the required amount for conversion to DP specification.

Now, if the required amount cannot be made from the ZF and BER stocks, then the remainder will simply be converted from standard war stocks. You will see from this, that while on the face of it, some 30 years down the line that your bright and shining No1 or No4 rifle LOOKS bright and shining, under the bright and shiny surface might be lurking a metallurgical nightmare ……………… Let me give you an example

During the 60’s and 70’s there was a constant need for No4 DP rifles, not only for cadet Forces but Parachute training too where the actual carrying of a rifle was more important than what the weapon was for. The reason for the attrition in this case was quite understandable. So a small but continuous rolling programme of ‘DP-ing’ was undertaken. Naturally many ZF/BER No4’s plus otherwise serviceable rifles were put into the programme plus a healthy dollop of L1A1 rifles too. Not only were these worn out rifles put into the pot, but we later learned, several thousand extensively fire damaged No4, L1A1 rifles and Bren guns that had been involved in a massive fire. These were aesthetically cleaned down, rebuilt to DP standard and profusely marked JUST so that there could be no doubt about their status.

Let me give you another example too. NO dates here of course but ‘recently’ several hundred assorted weapons were recovered from a fire ravaged/damaged ship, sunk in low water (and later towed out to sea and scuttled). These were all quickly earmarked for scrap and eventually side tracked for DP/Training use. Like the other example, these were also cleaned, and refurbished, painted and ‘restored’ to aesthetically ‘serviceable’ condition. Oh, they looked good but within a couple of years, these had started to rust from under the welds, seams and joints.

And before I forget, let me remind you of something else too, JUST in case you’re tempted to buy one to use as spare parts. This is what the Armourers bible says. ‘……..it will be assembled as far as possible with components which are below the standard required for a service weapon’. And another thing you ought to remember. There were NO gauging limits for DP rifles. Mmmmmmm, food for thought there!

That’s about it. In my very limited experience as an Armourer and having overseen some of these DP programmes, I can tell you with certainty that they were all profusely marked DP so that their status was unambiguous. Agreed, some might be taken straight from stocks, but the rest ……………

Would YOU trust one? There certainly IS a place for a DP rifle in a collection as it forms a place in the lineage of the breed. But in the cupboard or rack or on the wall. NOT on the firing point.



Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 18 2020 at 11:17pm
Zed had made reference to the bolt raceway looking as if there were no marks indicative of use. The metal looks as if it was sandblasted down to bare metal at some point in time from the supplied photos.  That for me is a huge red flag and a to good to be true scenario. The OP is adamant about eventually using it for whatever reasons he has come up with and it is of no concern to me from that perspective alone. I offered my reasons as to why I would not tempt fate and he took it under advisement and thanked me as such and added that his gunsmith will look it over.
I apprenticed under a man named Steve Beisen as a gunsmith and a gentleman had brought in an ancient Hopkins&Allen side by side with one barrel that looked as if someone had tried to smack the hide off a baseball. Steve looked at the shotgun and then asked the guy if he used modern ammunition when he was told specifically not to just the week prior. It was actually etched into the barrel. Use of modern ammunition not recommended. The man asked if it could be repaired without answering the question.  The shotgun was one of the earlier conversions from percussion to self contained shot she!! still retaining the original Damascus layered steel barrels.  He later confessed to the need to hear it go boom once more and all he had on hand was a Winchester deer slug. I have learned from past experiences that you can offer unsolicited advice and it will be taken under consideration or it will be given a thank you and left to drift off to nowhere. 


Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 12:17am
Goosic

You sound a bit snotty over my post, I simply asked for advice I never discarded you or your advice I simply replied I would take it to be looked at by an expert in the future before I’d consider firing the said rifle.

No one has come up with an exact decisive answer as to what exactly the double R stamp stands for including yourself 

Is it a big deal if for whatever reason I do or don’t fire the said rifle, No.
It’s an smle #1 mk3 there’s sh*t loads of them here in Australia if it was a must I’d just buy another one as I’ve done in the past It’s not that big of a deal.

I’ll thank you again for your input your clearly not an expert of the matter as such I will take it to an expert as most others have advised and clearly the safest option going forward, I’m not here to stroke your ego if that’s what your looking for I’m just a smle enthusiast like others on here and yes asking others for advice.

So thanks again Goosic for your input.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 2:35am
I do tend to get a tad snotty when I believe that someone is about to put their life in potential danger but, I digress.As you have clearly stated, you will have your mate give it a solid once over, making sure the headspace is correct as well no doubt. 
I only ask that, when you do get to the point of firing it. Make sure it is done remotely and that the receiver and barrel are firmly clamped down in some form of vice,without any wood/furniture in place. That will lessen the chance of the wood becoming potential splintered shrapnel if the rifle decides to do the opposite of what you are hoping for.

Good luck and God Bless BIGDOG!!!




Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 3:29am
This comment and accompanying photo was taken from a gunboard forum discussing a particular stylized R on Lithgow No1Mk111* rifles.
[QUOTE]
Cursive "R" "Rust damaged Barrel". Cursive "R" over cursive "R"  "Extreme rust damaged barrel unsafe to fire".


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 3:49am
Also found this on yet another forum and this one indicates that the Lithgow cadet rifles with a stylized R or stylized R over another stylized R also had three different paint colors on the rifle to let you know how bad the rifle was and it had been discovered that some unscrupulous folk would simply sand away any visible paint just to make an extra buck.
[Quote]  · #3
Green stripe, fully serviceable Yellow stripe, serviceable but not quite as good Red stripe, don't let a live round anywhere near ittisk tisk (Used strictly for square bashing British, white stripes, mean the same as red ones Indian, red-white-red stripes. 


Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 3:52am
”Not my mate” license gunsmith that will look at the rifle as a professional I would hope, I’m not taking the risk of any personal injury to myself or others if it’s is undoubtedly dangerous, if it’s found to be in any way dangerous I’ll look at a couple of options 1 replace the barrel or defective ares, 2 donate it to a local RSL as a wall hanger as you put it or 3 donate it back to once it came the Lithgow small arms museum.

Thanks 😊 


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 3:58am
Myself, I would not fire it with just a visual inspection. When I worked in oil/gas, pipe that had been overstressed by pressure or showed external signs of corrosion were routinely checked. Either by ultra sound (for thickess as each pipe was allowed a +/- on documented thickness before being condemned) or for the best inspection for fatigue cracking, an x-ray. I'm not sure about Australia, but Canada has several independent x-ray inspection companies that service industrial businesses. Might be worth a look... wouldn't even have to take the rifle apart.


Posted By: flatheadsal
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 4:57am
how about making it in to a .22 trainer????


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 5:03am
Much of today’s sophisticated non-destructive test equipment did not exist at the time the No. 1 rifles were in service, I don’t know how else they would determine the barrel was rusted other than a visual inspection,  they didn’t have borescopes then either.  If all this is truly down to a concern over a rusted barrel, change the barrel.  If it were me, I’d run my borescope down the barrel, perhaps you will see obvious pitting and solve the mystery.  

If the rifle were marked DP, there would be no question, but the markings appear to be related to a rusted barrel which in my opinion aught to be detectable by borescope and external inspection.  

But nothing wrong with the all the advice given, safest thing to do is hang it up on the wall and don’t fire it.  That’s true for all our Enfields.  Some of these rifles are 100 years old.  




Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 5:41am
britrifles brings up a great point. Unless the rifle has markings from an armourer indicating flaws or condemning, how many Lee Enfields have been been bought and sold with only a quick peek down the bore, cycle the action and pull the trigger? In the end, as stated in previous posts, the final decision to fire the rifle or not is up to the individual. 


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 10:30am
I agree with the idea of making it a .22
They are so much fun! Lithgow converted quite a few so you may even find a .22 Lithgow barrel

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 12:34pm
The conversion kits show up occasionally on E-Pay, they don't consider them a firearm. They tend to be mucho $$pendy though, more than $$ome rifle$$!

More info here & a link: Unfortunately it seems to be sold out.
https://www.enfield-rifles.com/22lr-smle-conversion-unit_topic6234.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.enfield-rifles.com/22lr-smle-conversion-unit_topic6234.html



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 2:46pm
The orintation of those two R's dosnt seem to fit the rusted barrel scheme of things.
Maybe someones intials, Royal Reserves??.
Idk, but I've seen it before, just cant place it.
If it was me I'd have it inspected if good clamp it and shoot it a few times.
Myself peronally, all my old smoke poles get inspected, then I only fire reduced target loads, after all some of these rifles are 100+ yrs old and metal does fatigue with age.
I too favour a .22 conversion just incase...

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shoot em if you got em


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 3:31pm
I agree with that Shiloh. I’ve been shooting No. 4 rifles so much I decided I needed to get a few more of them to spread out the wear and tear.   I now have 5 very good shooting No. 4 rifles, three in .303 and two in 7.62.   I like to load a bit below Mk 7 velocities and pressures. 




Posted By: BIGDOG
Date Posted: June 19 2020 at 7:18pm
agree how many of these have been through service and are junk and most have no issue firing them which is the beauty of them, best I have it inspected as I said previously and if it’s deem dangerous I’ll make a decision to it’s future, I didn’t expect so many sooks to stamp there feet because I didn’t bend over to take there advice which none has shown to be factual on the stamping of stylised double R and as such I’ll make whatever it’s meaning that it’s safe before if ever it is fired.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 6:17am
First, let me say I've reread every comment in regards to your original post. These are very knowledgeable people and only concerned for the safety of others. Same reason there are lively discussions on reloading and maximum pressures that may compromise some older, less robust Lee Enfields. Second, I know what "sook" means in Australian slang. I must say, I'm a little disappointed in your attitude as if you remember you came on the site looking for information on markings on the Knox form. Sorry the "sooky" answers are not to your liking. Moderators, please feel free to delete  my post.    


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 7:56am
Actually Shun,  everything that I personally researched on your rifles stylized R is factual and came from three well established online gunboard forums and two very knowledgeable and well established authors who specialize on the subject of the Enfield rifle. 
You came to us with questions and I know,beyond a shadow of any doubt, that I gave you the correct answer based off of research I did to assist in helping you. Your comment that you didn't bend over and take our advice because none has been shown to you to be factual is a slap in our faces and proves what I had stated earlier. We took time out of our lives to assist  you and you resort to name calling? You do what you are going to do with that rifle and do not expect us crybabies and whiners on here to offer any advice to you from here on out.


Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 8:38am
Originally posted by BIGDOG BIGDOG wrote:

agree how many of these have been through service and are junk and most have no issue firing them which is the beauty of them, best I have it inspected as I said previously and if it’s deem dangerous I’ll make a decision to it’s future, I didn’t expect so many sooks to stamp there feet because I didn’t bend over to take there advice which none has shown to be factual on the stamping of stylised double R and as such I’ll make whatever it’s meaning that it’s safe before if ever it is fired.

Would you jump with a parachute that you weren't sure of ?
Would you drive a car that might have a dangerous fault ?Disapprove


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Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 8:58am
OK Gents this one's getting a bit out of hand.
Lets keep it civil, please.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 11:15am
Its not worth getting wound up about.

Giving information out doesn't mean it will reach people or we'll be welcome if it does. Those who fail to seek or recognize truth are only demonstrating their own incapacity to recognize truth. So be it. You can't force someone to understand what they aren't ready to understand.

That doesn't mean we should stop speaking it, sharing it, outputting it in various forms. Since we can't change the world on our own as some magical king of the world, we need to get people to understand things before we can act together. And to understand things, people first need knowledge input. That's what can be done: to inform, then to understand, then to act wisely.

We can't compromise, limit, constrict, water-down, be-quiet, or hold-back certain aspects of truth just because some people might not be able to hear it. We can't read their minds to know what they are or aren't willing to hear. We can't make them think about it either once we give it to them. Those who can't see or hear the truth are the ones who do not have the eyes to see or the ears to hear.

It's by their own doing that they lack care about truth, reality and what 'is'. Excuses and justifications are abound. Keeping one's head in the sand in the comfort of ignorance or denial is more appealing to many than taking the arduous journey up the mountain of truth and keep going without knowing if there is ever an end to it. Those of us that do climb will keep drinking the life-force of truth that invigorates us to keep going.



Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 2:43pm
Shamu... I apologise for my comments. I've learned so much about Lee Enfields on this site from so many knowledgeable members, I tend to get a bit defensive. All are welcome, as are all discussions. I'm going to take a time-out for a week or so...  I apologise to the members for my posts related to this inquiry.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 3:16pm
Not a problem & unneeded unless you need it. Beer


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 6:26pm
This forum has been one of the better ones in terms of how we share information and treat each other.  We try to not make the technical issues become personal, and for the most part, we succeed.  This has been somewhat of an unusual year in many ways.  I think we can close this topic, I’ve appreciated everyone’s input and insight.   


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 20 2020 at 6:43pm
I myself appreciate every aspect of this forum and I am very grateful of everyone's input. We all have our own thought based opinions on specific topics and openly share those with the other members as well. We have our moments of agitation and at the same time,show our respect regardless of past issues good or not so good. I at this time would like to thank everyone of you for helping me through all my projects.  Without the combined knowledge and resources you all have shown, my Faux No4 T would not be as it is today and for that, I thank you from the bottom of my heart...


Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: June 21 2020 at 3:34am
Agreed that thus forum is my great source for seriously excellent information regarding the Enfields I own.  Folks offering advice here ave proven very knowledgable and generous with their time and content.

Perhaps our new friend from Australia is used to being heard, and not so used to listening.

I really thought this was another good discussion of markings on our rifles.  I was comparing some of the annotations to some on my rifles.  Not the “RR” thing, my rifles do not have that, however there were several posts with lots of detail about markings that were interesting to me.  My latest No4 has such unusual stampings, that I guess I will always be on the hunt for the identification for some of them.


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Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: June 21 2020 at 4:24am
I have found this forum the most informative friendly and instructive place for information on the Lee Enfield rifle and usually without discord. 
Members give well researched information freely and accept the work and opinion of others with gratitude and respect. This thread has tarnished that somewhat and I suggest that the new member either learns to respect other members or go elsewhere.


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Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 21 2020 at 4:49am
Goosic, I’m still thinking on that very generous trade offer on a DCRA 7.62 for your T. What’s making me struggle is that one was my Dads and the other his best friends, I’ve seem to have developed a bit of an emotional attachment.  Silly, I know...

Let me think on this today and I’ll PM you.  

By the way, both shoot very good.  I solved the mystery of the odd fully bedded forend on Dad’s friends rifle, I have his shooting notebook and all his notes on the accurizing of this rifle are in there.  He was a DCRA shooter, went to Bisley many times, and a very good shooter (also have his scorebook). He was struggling with improving the accuracy at short range and didn’t realize it was really just the 7.62 service ammo used at the time.  It shoots fantastic with my handloads.  He passed away in 1967 and the rifle was not fired until I got a few years ago.  




Posted By: Fairbanks007
Date Posted: June 21 2020 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Stanforth Stanforth wrote:

I have found this forum the most informative friendly and instructive place for information on the Lee Enfield rifle and usually without discord. 
Members give well researched information freely and accept the work and opinion of others with gratitude and respect.


This has certainly been my experience in my short time here.



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