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Mkiii with ishapore 2a1 internals

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Ishapore Enfields
Forum Description: Let's see those Indian Enfields!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10705
Printed Date: November 29 2020 at 2:12pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Mkiii with ishapore 2a1 internals
Posted By: Squirrely
Subject: Mkiii with ishapore 2a1 internals
Date Posted: July 06 2020 at 7:51pm
can anyone tell me roughly what an mk3 with ishapore internals is worth? I’ve got one with a 1907 bayonet that was put into service in 1916. I’m looking to possibly sell them together as ive hit a rough patch and needing the money. Any help would be appreciated.



Replies:
Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 6:53am
The internals won't affect value at all. It's all about overall condition, functionality and bore. Certain makers may get a slight premium but not always. Internal parts have been swapped around over the years to keep them functional and as long as it's properly functional those internals won't make a difference.


Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 8:03am
hmm, ok. As far as I’m concerned the functionality is at 100% if not then it’s very close. There’s no pitting in the bore, the assignment number is still clear as day. 


Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 9:19am
welcome to the forum from NC,  

Post some photos?


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Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 9:38am
Originally posted by Squirrely Squirrely wrote:

can anyone tell me roughly what an mk3 with ishapore internals is worth? I’ve got one with a 1907 bayonet that was put into service in 1916. I’m looking to possibly sell them together as ive hit a rough patch and needing the money. Any help would be appreciated.
Squirrely. If you truly want a fairly solidified estimate, you will need to  first, supply us with some photos of your rifle to better establish an overall condition. Price also depends on location and what someone is willing to pay for your items. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 9:45am
Originally posted by Squirrely Squirrely wrote:

hmm, ok. As far as I’m concerned the functionality is at 100% if not then it’s very close. There’s no pitting in the bore, the assignment number is still clear as day. 
Is the rifle complete? Does it still retain all the furniture it left the factory with? What is the condition of the wood,the metal finish? Does the serial number on the barrel, match the serial number on the receiver,and do those numbers match the serial number on the bolt? Is there any distinguishing marks on the metal or wood or both that would possibly affect the cost?
These are just a few questions that need an answer for us to give you a rough estimate. Pictures of the rifle as whole and pictures of every angle including every inspectors stamps, cyphers,and marks go a very long way in helping you receive an answer...


Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 12:46pm


Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 12:47pm


Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 12:48pm


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 12:57pm
Does it say RFI on the buttsocket with 1965 underneath the RFI?


Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 1:02pm


Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 1:04pm
yes it does, too to bottom it reads: 
(some form of stamp)
Rifle
7.62mm 2a1
R.F.I.
1965


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 1:05pm
That is not a No1Mk111/*  It is a 2A/2A1 7.62mm Ishapore made at the Wah Cannt factory in Pakistan. The No1 and the 2A/1 are two separate entities. Yours pictured could garner between 350-550 USD depending on who is willing to pay what you decide to offer.  The bayonet I have seen listed as low as 50 bucks and as high as 250.00


Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 1:06pm


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 1:53pm
Yeah, that is just a straight up Ishapore 2A1 in 7.62x51 NATO. They were never .303's, they were purpose built to handle the NATO rounds. Yours looks fairly decent but that chunk of wood missing on the right just behind the charger bridge my give some people pause. Indian rifles are seen with that issue so it's not huge. These have been going for $450 to $550 in my area.


Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 2:19pm
yeah, I knew that these were purpose built internals, I just wasn’t sure exactly how much they were worth, I’ve put a few rounds through this and it’s still really accurate and functions like it should


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

That is not a No1Mk111/*  It is a 2A/2A1 7.62mm Ishapore made at the Wah Cannt factory in Pakistan. The No1 and the 2A/1 are two separate entities. Yours pictured could garner between 350-550 USD depending on who is willing to pay what you decide to offer.  The bayonet I have seen listed as low as 50 bucks and as high as 250.00

I think there may be a little confusion here, the Enfield 2A was built by the RFI (Rifle Factory Ishapore) which is in India and has been supplying munitions since 1787.

The POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) is in Wah Cannt which is in Pakistan

Separate companies and very separate countries, who spent many, many years of heavy fighting over the borders from 1947 until a ceasefire in 2003


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 2:45pm
Yes. I misremembered and thank you for the clarification. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 08 2020 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by Squirrely Squirrely wrote:

yeah, I knew that these were purpose built internals, I just wasn’t sure exactly how much they were worth, I’ve put a few rounds through this and it’s still really accurate and functions like it should
Could you indulge me by explaining your referencing,"Internals" please?


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: July 09 2020 at 6:35am
I am curious on that as well.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 09 2020 at 6:47am
to add to what was said concerning the two different factories , IIRC ishapore made the ni1 style rifle and pakistan made the no4 style , but i never came across a POF rifle to actually inspect it closely , 


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: July 09 2020 at 7:09am
Yes, you are correct. Pakistan bought the tooling and machinery from the BSA Shirley plant and made No 4 rifles. The Indians only ever made the No 1 style of rifle. They refurbished others but only manufactured the No 1 style.


Posted By: Whitjr
Date Posted: July 09 2020 at 9:59am
is there abig difference in quality from the India made as compared to the Pakastani made? Maybe that’s just splitting hairs...

‘Course then there’s the question about quality of those rifles when compared with BSA made....  (I just couldn’t help myself...)


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Posted By: Squirrely
Date Posted: July 09 2020 at 10:08am
when I say internals I’m referencing the bolt, carrier/receiver, and barrel, so essentially it’s all the metal functioning parts, not including the body/furniture.


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: July 09 2020 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Whitjr Whitjr wrote:

is there abig difference in quality from the India made as compared to the Pakastani made? Maybe that’s just splitting hairs...

‘Course then there’s the question about quality of those rifles when compared with BSA made....  (I just couldn’t help myself...)

It is a bit like comparing oranges with bananas

Pakistan did not make No1 rifles and India did not make the No4.

The No4 production in Pakistan came from BSA (as Bear said) because the contract that BSA had with the MoD was that they must retain the manufacturing capacity on a 'care & maintenance' basis  for 10 years after the last date of production, so, in 1955 it was old onto the highest bidder (Pakistan)


The PoF No4 rifles are good quality and shoot well.

The Indian No1 rifles that were initially sold off were all well built, and in fair condition, but, as the years have gone by the quality of the No1 Mk3 has gone down and they are now selling pretty much shot out rifles.
Ishapore started manufacturing the LE Mk1 in 1906 and changed over to No1 Mk3 in 1910, they manufactured all the way thru the two World Wars.
The 1950 onwards rifles (after India was given independence and they changed the steel spec) were not 'up-to-spec' and the proof testing was 'amended' but the specification was not. It was a bit of a 'fudge'



Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 09 2020 at 10:02pm
i agree with that - i think both initially produced good quality on "used equipment" but as years go by and equipment has aged and they no longer have british support .....im not going to say it has remained that way past the late 60s , but then im not sure what support or internal QC and retooling might be happening , i think both counties have advanced beyond the enield with whatever 'support' from foreign countries over the last 40 years , 



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