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Sporterized Savage No4 Mk 1/3

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Topic: Sporterized Savage No4 Mk 1/3
Posted By: klr
Subject: Sporterized Savage No4 Mk 1/3
Date Posted: September 08 2020 at 3:45pm
I've had my fun and it's time to let my bubba Enfield go. I've taken a couple of deer with it and it worked fine. Bore is good, groups around 1.5" with my limited load development. Action works smoothly and it feeds fine. It has a 5 round magazine with "Jape" or "Japr" scratched faintly in the side. I can make out the "Jap" but the 4th letter is unclear.

Sights have been removed, charger bridge ground off, and side of receiver has three holes drilled in it.
Barrel has been cut to 22".
It comes with the scope mount and rings. I'm keeping the scope, sling, and buttstock she!! holder and I'm shooting all my ammo before I sell the rifle. Big smile

Savage U.S. Property. It is marked with F/TR, but the scope mount covers the markings and I'm going on memory here. I think it is dated 1953 for the FTR.  If someone is really serious I'll remove the scope mount. 

$350 and plus shipping and insurance.
Payment via USPS money order. 
Your ffl must be willing to receive a shipment from an individual.
Not for sale where prohibited by law.
Located east of Cincinnati, Ohio. 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-dzmqrZc/A" rel="nofollow">
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-VfHsLxD/A" rel="nofollow">
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-LvcMdDv/A" rel="nofollow">
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-SPwMCvf/A" rel="nofollow">



Replies:
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 08 2020 at 7:49pm
The magazine is a Santa Fe 5 round.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 3:11am
Originally posted by klr klr wrote:


Sights have been removed, charger bridge ground off, and side of receiver has three holes drilled in it.
Barrel has been cut to 22".
It comes with the scope mount and rings. I'm keeping the scope, sling, and buttstock she!! holder and I'm shooting all my ammo before I sell the rifle. Big smile


$350 and plus shipping and insurance.
Payment via USPS money order.
Located east of Cincinnati, Ohio. 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-dzmqrZc/A" rel="nofollow">
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-VfHsLxD/A" rel="nofollow">
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-LvcMdDv/A" rel="nofollow">
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-SPwMCvf/A" rel="nofollow">
$200.00 cash and you meet me halfway in Emporia Kansas.


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 4:40am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

[QUOTE=klr]
$200.00 cash and you meet me halfway in Emporia Kansas.

LOL  LOL


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 7:27am
Not to interrupt (too much), but are you sure the Santa Fe mag is a 5 rounder? I only ask because I'd always assumed mine was as well but then on checking it holds 7!






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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 7:37am
Mine only holds 5


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 1:42pm
OK, thanks.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 1:52pm
Mine holds 5.
Here is the only marking on it.  Must be a super-rare variant. Likely owned by one of Churchill's relatives and worth waaay more than I'm asking...  Wink

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-cDCHTv7/A" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 2:06pm
I reworked the tabs on the magazine and I can now fit seven cartridges in it Shamu. 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by klr klr wrote:

Mine holds 5.
Here is the only marking on it.  Must be a super-rare variant. Likely owned by one of Churchill's relatives and worth waaay more than I'm asking...  Wink

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-cDCHTv7/A" rel="nofollow">

It was owned by A.J. Parker of gunsmithing fame.
Many don't realize he was dyslexic, & thus invented the "Enfield Inch"! OuchLOL


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 5:18pm
Well, that was fun....maybe I'll pull the barrel and turn it into a wildcat. 303-6mm should be interesting. LOL

Since no one is buying and I'm not driving to Emporia Kansas, let me hear your suggestions. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 6:52pm
I personally like converting the No4 to fire the 7.62x51mm NATO round.


Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: September 09 2020 at 10:06pm
Goosic those are great projects you've completed! I just picked up 100 rounds of IVI 7.62 x 51 NATO for my DCRA rifle project. Have yet to try the package at the range but its coming soon.

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 10 2020 at 4:35am
Next Wednesday I am going to the range to dial in my sporterized early No4Mk1 no star Savage with the Lapua D-166 200grn FMJBT bullets. 


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: September 10 2020 at 4:40am
Interesting. 
Any isues with converting to a rimless round?
Do you have to do anything to the bolt head?
How do they feed?


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 10 2020 at 5:11am
I use the 2A1 Ishapore barrel. A small amount of metal is removed on the mating surface and breech face of the barrel to get it to clock correctly with the extractor cut lining up accordingly. 
The face of the bolthead needs to be resurfaced to a length less than that of a #0 and firing pin protrusion needs to be readjusted as well.
Feeding is of no issue when using a UK made No4 reciever in conjunction with a L42A1 magazine.


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: September 11 2020 at 6:37pm
Withdrawn from sale. 


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 12:34am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

The face of the bolthead needs to be resurfaced to a length less than that of a #0 and firing pin protrusion needs to be readjusted as well.


It is interesting that when production of the L42 commenced they found that the "Number 0" bolt head was too big and a "Number 00" was manufactured specifically for the 7.62 No4 actions


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 1:28am
I spent approximately 1 hour machining the face of the bolthead until I got the proper headspacing.  002" increments starting with a .628" bolthead.  The bolthead is now sized to .600"  .035" was removed from the firing pin to maintain a .045" pin protrusion. Not for the faint of heart when you get down to it...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 5:11am
Both my DCRA 7.62 Conversions (done at Long Branch) have a #0 bolt head that measures 0.629.  I would have thought that headspace was set with a chamber finish reamer?


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 8:21am
britrifles: When you have to do all your fit and finish work by hand using hand me down parts designed for a different rifle, the outcome will typically not correspond with what a factory installation might have been. Unfortunately for me, I do not have the luxury of having a known source of correct No4 barrels chambered in 7.62x51mm NATO that would and should just  clock into position without having to reindex the extractor slot and i am forced to rely on my own ingenuity and a $350.00 mini lathe from Harbor Freight to make what I desire. I have to reindex a barrel designed for a 2A1 Ishapore reciever to have it correctly clock into position on a No4 reciever by meticulously and ever so slowly, removing metal,thousands of inches at a time,without relying on barrel shims until it indexes correctly. Because of this, I then have to resize the bolthead until proper headspace is achieved because again, I have to hand fit everything.  I then have to work the firing pin down to achieve the proper pin protrusion. You can actually just screw the barrel into place and mark where to cut out a new extractor slot and use existing boltheads to get your headspace correct but i find that sloppy and less than professional.  It also makes my creation a "One-Off" design and fit and finish is correct for "that" particular rifle. I am also unfortunate in that I cannot afford to buy a DCRA converted, L39A1, or L42A1. 
It might not jive with some folks thinking on how an Enfield should be constructed but i have been doing this same procedure for decades now and I know exactly what I am doing in regards to this.
If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing right...


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 8:41am
I got it wrong - it was the L39 Target rifle that had the 00 bolt head.

Was having a browse through the Small Arms Committee minutes relating to the L39A1 rifle the other day and found some bits and pieces that I think I ought to pass on. Including some things that I never realized either!

The first bit is that contrary to what I firmly believed, that the rifles were built up to new rifle specification from ‘new’ components (including new barrels obviously) including bodies but the committee minutes state ‘….rifles converted from the Rifle No4 Mk1/2 and 2’ too. I was under the impression from the Armourers technical blurb that all L39’s were made ‘as new’. But this is clearly not so because Mk1/2 type L39’s will exist.

This COULD mean that L39’s were made from brand new, unused ex c.1955 Fazakerley bodies. It could also include USED ex .303” Mk2 bodies. It could also Mk2/1 rifles unbreeched and rebarrelled at the point of conversion to L39 at Enfield and it COULD include bodies converted to Mk1/2 but UNUSED since conversion at Fazakerley in the late 40’s to mid 50’s. However, no mention is made of Mk1/3 bodies.

Paragraph 3 of the build standard states that the rifles will be fitted with the stock butt of the No4 rifle, ‘….identical except that a small recess is machined under the knuckle to hold spare foresight blades in a suitable container. There you have it. The correct, ‘as-issue’ butt is that of the No4, modified as detailed above. But (if you’ll excuse the pun), more later….!

Para 8 of the build standard also states that the magazine will be the standard .303” magazine that will be used as a loading platform. It goes on to state that the rifle may be fitted with a 10 round 7.62mm magazine at the users request

Now here’s the surprise…….. Para 20 states that certain rifles are fitted with a special factory size 00 bolt head. ‘……..at the factory only, it is used when assembly tolerances require a smaller head than a ‘0’. The bolt head is special and is not provisioned as a spare’. 

Instruction 1 to the committee says that the first 50 EX type rifles (or should this be XL rifles?) were produced and procured with trigger pressures set to the SERVICE limits of 1st - 3 to 4 lbs and 2nd – 5 to 6.5 lbs. But subsequent series production is to be set at 1st - 2.5 to 3.5 lbs and 2nd – 4 to 5.5lbs pull. To cater for this permissible adjustment, the face of the sear can be adjusted to a maximum angle of 80 degrees ( to decrease the sear load pressure). Additionally, magazine catches with an additional sear spring location recess BELOW the original will be provided or may be encountered. There, that’s the answer if you have one on yours!



Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 9:36am
Interesting. 
From my perspective however, I am handed a barrel that from an outward appearance is essentially identical to a No1Mk111 barrel and is designed to fit what is essentially a No1Mk111 reciever. The barrel can be screwed onto a no4 reciever but the extractor cutout is almost 180° from where it needs to be and i have witnessed folk marking the spot and then cutting out a new slot. Not cool in my book. If I was gifted the correct barrel for the application ,this commentary would not exist. I have to.make due with what I have and that means that I have to be creative to achieve what it was I was after.  At some point in time I would love to own an original No4 rifle.converted to fire the 7.62x51mm cartridge that was factory equipped.  Based off of my limited income and the fact that those who do have an original typically would rather commit suicide than let go and pass down something to the less fortunate, I am left with making my own less than original copy and and a copy it stays however.
When I do my conversions , it is not done hastily. It is done according to measurements that were painstakingly taken and taken again. The machining process of the barrel mating surface is done in stages with thousands of an inch removed at a time and then checked and so on and so on until everything matches up. It has never been a plug and play scenario. My completed projects are a testimonial to the pride i take in creating such one off pieces. They are mechanically sound and proven to work without failure.


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Interesting. 
F  At some point in time I would love to own an original No4 rifle.converted to fire the 7.62x51mm cartridge that was factory equipped.  Based off of my limited income and the fact that those who do have an original typically would rather commit suicide than let go and pass down something to the less fortunate, 

In the UK they are 10-a-penny (well, around $100-150) at auctions for both No4's and No3's) no one wants them, I took a couple I had to my local dealer to scrap them as I wanted them off my licence so I could buy other models.


There is a You-tube video of a Brit testing a No4 7.62 to destruction using 'magnum' rounds, he says the same - he used an Enfield No4 in 7.62 because they are 'worthless'.

Obviously 'originals' like Enforcer, L39 and L42 hold their value, but its a very different story on Gunsmith modifications - even using the original '7.62 No4 kit' with all 'proper' 7.62 parts.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 10:21am
Quite the shame in my opinion.  Someone who has the necessary skills and talents to make modifications using only what he has available and to do so with astounding proficiency is becoming a lost art. And yet, those modified items will more often than not be deemed,"worthless" because it is not a pedigree pony cut from the herd like the venerable L39/42A1. Interestingly enough. There are those who can and will quote standards and procedures from ages ago not having the will and fortitude to step off that path and venture into the unknown. Those that do make their own path are the ones who are shunned the most and are looked down upon. 


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Quite the shame in my opinion.  Someone who has the necessary skills and talents to make modifications using only what he has available and to do so with astounding proficiency is becoming a lost art. And yet, those modified items will more often than not be deemed,"worthless" because it is not a pedigree pony cut from the herd like the venerable L39/42A1. Interestingly enough. There are those who can and will quote standards and procedures from ages ago not having the will and fortitude to step off that path and venture into the unknown. Those that do make their own path are the ones who are shunned the most and are looked down upon. 

Clap Clap

...and just try selling something you've modified.  You'll get offered a pittance and have to drive halfway across the country to get rid of it. Wink LOL LOL LOL

But seriously, interesting discussion. Are the 308 versions more accurate than the 303? 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 1:12pm
The accuracy between the two variants are marginal with the 7.62x51mm edging out the .303 only in the multitudes of cartridge options including specific match loads designed solely around the 7.62mm as opposed to a few choice options made available for the 303 cartridge. I have a match grade No4Mk1* Long Branch still chambered in the original .303B. It is fed one specific handload and at 100 yards has the same MOA as my Custom M700P in .308. At 200 yards and farther,the .308 shows a marked improvement over the 303.


Posted By: raubvogel
Date Posted: September 30 2020 at 7:49am
klr I cannot vouch for others but one of the main reasons I did not even make an offer is because I currently ran out of space in my little safe (I live in an apartment). I have parts kits I decided they look better right now in their boxes as they take much less space and are easier to store.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 30 2020 at 8:05am
I would say, with all due respect, the magazine is the highlight of the Sporter. Without it and the accessories you would keep, around where I live, $100 rifle. Enfield people I know get leery when the charger bridge is gone. 


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 9:45am
The listing included the magazine. I wouldn't sell the rifle without it.

The starting price isn't the same as the selling price. I figured I'd settle for somewhere around $250. At that price it compares favorably to the cheap factory rifles I've handled.  Except the Enfield is all wood and steel and the action is smooth and the trigger is crisp. It's also neat to hunt with a rifle that Savage built here in the States and then traveled to England to fight in WWII.

Here's a group I shot this week at 100 yds:

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-xqGks6K/A" rel="nofollow">


So I was pricing it as a functional hunting rifle with an interesting history.

But I get what you're saying - it's just a crappy chopped-up milsurp to most people.

Thanks for your input, guys.  Even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear, it helps me decide what to do with it.



Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 9:56am
Originally posted by klr klr wrote:

The listing included the magazine. I wouldn't sell the rifle without it.

The starting price isn't the same as the selling price. I figured I'd settle for somewhere around $250. At that price it compares favorably to the cheap factory rifles I've handled.  Except the Enfield is all wood and steel and the action is smooth and the trigger is crisp. It's also neat to hunt with a rifle that Savage built here in the States and then traveled to England to fight in WWII.

Here's a group I shot this week at 100 yds:

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-ddVKkb/i-xqGks6K/A" rel="nofollow">


So I was pricing it as a functional hunting rifle with an interesting history.

But I get what you're saying - it's just a crappy chopped-up milsurp to most people.

Thanks for your input, guys.  Even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear, it helps me decide what to do with it.


If that is a 1" square, that's pretty good. If it a 12" square its appalling.

Some reference to size is helpful.

Savage No4 Mk1* at 82 yards (75 metres) over open-sights. 2 warming shots then 5 rounds.
Lying prone with only elbow support, wind 10-12mph right to left.
Prvi Partisan 174g FMJ factory ammunition.




Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 10:08am
Please don't get me wrong! I own and love several Sporters! I was saying your original asking price is what we around here would pay for a Sporters with scope, etc. A sporter with no aftermarket options don't sell for much here. And for some reason, Savage L-E's don't seem to sell for what their worth. Being Canada, Long Branch and English made ones sell for more. Again, no disrespect to your rifle!


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 10:11am
Also, if it was a 12" square, the hole, by my calculations, would have been made by a 3.732" Calibre.


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 11:45am
No offense taken. 

For reference, those holes are .312." LOL  Using my dial calipers and good eye I measured. 0.890" for that group.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 12:44pm
klr... my calibre joke was in reference to the comment on "if it's a 12" group, appalling!" from another poster. Of course it wasn't. The 100 yard grouping your Sporter shots is a tribute to your rifle and your marksmanship. I speak only for myself... please be a regular poster as you obviously appreciate Enfields. I had a rocky start on this forum a few years ago... so many good people and so much knowledge!


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 1:08pm
That group makes it a great hunting rifle; good for putting meat on the table.
Many of these rifles were converted over the years. Not all of them can be returned to original military spec', and not all of them need to be.
It would not be worthwhile trying to restore it; just enjoy it as is; on the range or hunting.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 1:13pm
Ah yes! The famous "3.7" Enfield, Flanged & Belted Magnum", usually reserved for hunting "Giant Gramplepooposes" on the famous "“Great Grey-Green, Greasy Limpopo River”! Thuddy-ought-six shown for comparison.
https://picturearchive.gunauction.com/233074805/11026149/IMG_0008.jpg


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: October 01 2020 at 2:39pm
Honkytonk -- Yep, I got the joke. I thought it was pretty good that you calculated it out to three decimal places. LOLLOL

Shamu - What are those? 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 02 2020 at 6:15am
They're for the Boys anti-tank rifle a 55 cal magnum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.55_Boys" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.55_Boys

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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: klr
Date Posted: October 02 2020 at 9:51am
Thanks! 



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