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NOS No 4 Mk 1 Tie Plate Pin needed

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10830
Printed Date: March 04 2021 at 5:29am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: NOS No 4 Mk 1 Tie Plate Pin needed
Posted By: Fazak48
Subject: NOS No 4 Mk 1 Tie Plate Pin needed
Date Posted: September 10 2020 at 10:46am
Any Ideas on where to find or how to replace  the brass  tie strap pin on a No 4 Mk 1 ?  The rifle as obtained had a pin but the peened head on one side was missing so I risk cracking the forend further after repairs to existing minor ones without it.

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Replies:
Posted By: philtno
Date Posted: September 10 2020 at 11:57pm
Hi Fazak48,
I think you might be luckier if you would first introduce yourself to the forum members, maybe tell them a little bit about yourself and how/why you came onto this forum....there is a section just for that Wink
Also, a bit of courtesy is always appreciated....you know, saying "Hi"..."Thanks"..that kind of things Wink before asking for something.....just me saying Big smile
Other than that, be welcome. This is the right place for good advice and soaking into the experience of the "old" members LOL
Cheers from New Zealand
Philtno


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 11 2020 at 4:14pm
welcome aboard , im certain someone will come along thats been buying bits recently with ideas of where you might try , i have not so i cannot help with what your seeking , goosic may have an idea on how to make your own , 


Posted By: Doco Overboard
Date Posted: September 11 2020 at 5:48pm
I bought a small brass rod. 1/8' or something like that . Heated it up to anneal it, drove it through the tie plate and then carefully peened it over.

When you first drive the rod through, make sure you can slightly compress the tie plate so a very small amount of in-letting may be in order.
By doing so,  the plate will grip the rod due to the force of the compression and the angle at which the rod protrudes through the holes. Rounding the end of the pin over is just icing on the cake so to speak.
Sort of like a sliding tent pole arrangement.

Back the pin up with a "dolly" to keep it tight or moving the opposite side of the plate off the wood.
You can easily test by just inserting the rod through the tie plate before final fitting, it'll grab nicely and you'll see what I mean.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 11 2020 at 6:08pm
Your local hobby shop will have brass rods of various thicknesses that you can use to replace the broken reinforcing pin in your rifle. Once you have removed the broken pin cut to length the new brass rod leaving 1/8" exposed on either side,lightly tap the new brass pin into place and then  tap the ends with a small brad pin hammer or rock hammer until you have peened the ends down.


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 7:18am
Sorry if rude on intro. In "research/info" mode, lol. 


he!!o Folks and thanks for replies!


I'm a history grad and avid buff of all things military hailing from the Buffalo, NY area. Have a couple of "plinkers" and a wall-hanger 1863 Springfield (Civil War is a particular interest of mine). Several years ago I was GIVEN a no's matching Fazakerley no 4 mk 1. Been in the rack with periodic cleanings since then. Finally decided to do the homework and get it checked out. Clean sharp bore and even headspaces on original "0" bolt head. Gunsmithe was rather impressed. To ensure it's status as a "shooter", I stripped and cleaned it for cosmoline over several days and found some damage at the tie plate area.  Looks like FTR draw repairs ( dowled blocks) and everything fits TIGHT as it should with proper pressure at the bearing.. So now....how to fix it the RIGHT way. 


Has anyone ever used T-88 epoxy for repairs?


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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 8:02am
Brass brazing rod works too.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 9:23am


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Liverpool Rules


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 9:38am
Here's the area and piece. I am figuring with the area/piece epoxied and the plate/pin back in place with all other surfaces intact it should be a good fix.  I'm doing another acetone soak of the end to try to leack any of the remaining cosmoline out and noted that while not often noted in other forums, some very high-end restorers have used the T-88 for far more complex repairs on valuable guns. While Cpt. Laidler may be languishing in a small room, he does appear to know his stuff and while not branding anything, recommends an aircraft grade epoxy and T-88 seems to fit the bill for use on oily woods (by nature) and less brittleness while being structural and having a high tensile and shear strength for stress areas like behind the draws.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated, and as mentioned, thanks for the replies to date. This is a labor of love of history to bring this piece back to fighting form and some fun in my old age putting holes in things.


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Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 9:52am
Being an avid camper/canoer and at one point having worked in repair on cedar and canvas 16 footers I get the "tent pole" analogyWink! I use them  for setting up a tarp canopy at camp sites. Frequent Flier miles in the Adirondacks, Maine and areas of West/Central Pennsylvania among a number of other places.


Enough background Philtno? Or am I now guilty of TMI....chuckle.


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Posted By: philtno
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Fazak48 Fazak48 wrote:

Enough background Philtno? Or am I now guilty of TMI....chuckle.
Hahaha, no, that's brilliant!!Thumbs Up
Thanks and welcome again Wink
Cheers


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 2:51pm
Shamu... read my mind... braizing rods. I have used them for several Savage 99's and 30/30 repairs. As cross pins, once a hole is drilled thru the furniture, I leave the pin proud on one side so I will only have one end to dress. Of course, liberal amounts of epoxy is applied to the pin before tapping it in and excess is imediately wiped off.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 12 2020 at 7:32pm
no such thing as TMI unless you get into ex-wives and such , we are glad you have joined us and as you see there is much help to be had here , we all enjoy each others projects - vicariously - but no less the enjoyment as most of us have been doing the same for years, decades, a generation now , 

we can even commiserate on ex-wives now and again alltho most of us would never alienate the females here or want to relive the times so ....just loin in and enjoy , we are a jovial bunch in general , prone to off topic tangents , but much to be learned in both venues , 




Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 13 2020 at 5:12am
Thanks for the welcome Folks. 

A decent, helpful lot. Not neccessarily the case in other locations, particularly if you're a "newbie" .

Having posted shots of my project, what's the general opinion of my plan? I am also VERY keen to know if my cleanup is sufficient to allow for gluing. I have spent hours/days trying to de-oil and am concerned about the effects on the wood of repeated "baths" of solvents and rubs with a well-worn scotch-brite pad and toothbrush, combined with heat and would like to avoid further risk. As it is, I know some would take exception to the level I've cleaned it but based on a careful approach none of the markings are affected and even the "wear" areas where hands have repeatedly grasped it retain their patina. NO sandpaper has touched it.


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Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 13 2020 at 5:21am
Hey Philtno...you live in one of the most beautiful places left on this poor orb. Having traveled quite a bit in my time, it's still on my bucket list. Came close in Australia as a teen.

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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 13 2020 at 8:55am
I usually use denatured alcohol for oil removal. It doesn't break down fibers like many harsher treatments will.
I'm also rapidly becoming a fan of "Gorilla Glue". Its water activated if you're unfamiliar with it, you just wipe the surfaces with a damp cleaning patch, q-tip or whatever & apply the glue clamp & wait. It does "foam" as it cures & so expands, just be there to trim of any that wells out of the join area before it sets rock hard!


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 13 2020 at 3:43pm
Any thoughts on whether its clean enough at this stage? The draws have been redone so an acetone bath seems out so I don't destroy THAT repair by dissolving the glue used there.

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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 13 2020 at 5:33pm
wrap it in paper towel , pit it in a black plastic garbage gag in the sun , change towels as needed till it quits leaching oils , 


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 13 2020 at 5:46pm
he!!o A Square...

I've Murphied, mineraled,  heated, wiped, repeat. for several hours over the span of a few days to a point where I then soaked the smaller repair area in acetone. The result is in the photos above. The vast majority of the oil is out. My question is whether, based on an evaluation of the pics, it is clean enough to attempt the repair.


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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 13 2020 at 5:52pm
The problem with wood is its porous.
Today It may be spotless, but oil (& worse) will wick back into the cleaned areas over time.
Right now its perfect probably, but next week?
That issue is only solved by gentle deep cleaning.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: philtno
Date Posted: September 13 2020 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Fazak48 Fazak48 wrote:

Hey Philtno...you live in one of the most beautiful places left on this poor orb. Having traveled quite a bit in my time, it's still on my bucket list. Came close in Australia as a teen.

Yep...Smile
I migrated 6 1/2 years ago and only regret not to have done that much earlier...Wink
You might have to wait a little bit for being granted visitor visa from the US, though.... but, hopefully, things will get better and ease with time (just trying NOT to inject any political subliminal opinion here hahahaha)....then, just be welcome Wink

Cheers


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 14 2020 at 1:16am
"Patience my young Padewan" said Shamu.....


AcknowledgedThumbs Up



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Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 14 2020 at 1:23am
It's a hot mess here Philtno.

I try hard not to make it worse. Folks have enough on their plate and my politics are mine and I avoid knocking heads with others about them. Seems pretty fruitless if not downright destructive these days.


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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 14 2020 at 7:53pm
ill not intentionally start anything - never have - but ill no longer hold back my opinions , the silent majority has been way too quiet for way too long .

im expecting trouble when trump is reelected - im good with that bring it , but now im seeing where they intend to move the trials here for the four MPLS cops accused of starting all the unrest by detaining a known felon who was high on fentinal to the point he was walking dead [ JMHO based on the facts the attorneys are leaking ] when they are acquitted the outsiders better not think this community will deal with them as seattle and portland has , we are all gearing up for deer hunting out here in the land of "rocks & cows" as our governor labeled us , most of us are sighted in and have sufficient ammo -- not a good place to think about starting a 'peaceful protest' with bricks and molotov cocktails at all , while not planning to be on the defensive at this point we are ready at the time it occurs  


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 15 2020 at 5:46am
I fully expect STHTF come November if not before, and prepared for the worst while hoping for the best. that said...I am here to learn and share a common interest and not talk politics.

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Posted By: MJ11
Date Posted: September 15 2020 at 8:51am
FFazak48 as Goosic said hobby shops are your friend for brass rod. Supply houses like Brownell's will ask have stock repair brass pinnings. In the past I have replaced the strap pins on #1 & #4 stocks. Glue, well Elmer's wood or simple white glue has always worked on clean wood for me from split wrists to handguards.

Welcome aboard.


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The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 16 2020 at 1:50am
Roger that MJ and thanks.

Given the critical area and damage, I'm going for the strongest stuff I can find that they use on wood aircraft structures. That and screw rod to replace the pin. I also have to determine the original cause. Gap at the socket, loose king screw, broken pin...? I have to make the initial repair and check the gap. Everything fits tight even with the damage and wood dried out from cleaning so I'm wondering what the root of the problem is. Would BLO alone swell the wood a little or should I go with an initial 50/50 raw linseed/mineral and use the BLO for finish coats to make it possibly a hair tighter?


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Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: September 16 2020 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Fazak48 Fazak48 wrote:

Roger that MJ and thanks.

. I also have to determine the original cause. Gap at the socket, loose king screw, broken pin...? I have to make the initial repair and check the gap. 

DO NOT fit the forend tight up against the butt-socket - there should be a small gap, otherwise you will get 'splinters' breaking away.

The max gap (according to the Armourers 'bible') is 10thou,





And, from the UKs most senior armourer :

An extract of his presentation on how to fit a forend 


.................Now it’s time to fit the trigger guard and Screw, rear, tie, fore-end if you have a Mk1/2 or 1/3. There’s a good chance that the rear of the trigger guard will foul due to the height of the new wood. If that’s the case, then simply scrape away the wood inside its seating to allow it to seat correctly all the way to the front. The trigger guard should not spring at the rear or front….., NO it shouldn’t! If it was meant to, it’d be made of spring steel! Now for a little tip. The COLLAR. You MUST have a collar and spring washer. This is what WE used to do. Put the front trigger guard screw into the trigger guard and body WITHOUT the washer or collar. Reverse it (that’s anti-clockwise …..) until you hear it click over the start thread and tighten it BUT COUNT THE TURNS UNTIL IT TIGHTENS AND LOCKS. Say, that it’s 7 ¼ turns to lock. Now do this with the collar fitted if it’s now, say 6 ½ turns, shorten the collar, a smidgin at a time, until the screw tightens up at exactly 7 ¼ turns. That way, you KNOW that the screw is tight, the fore-end is tight between the trigger guard and the screw and you are not crushing the living daylights out of the fore-end. And if it feels a little loose in a years time, then you can safely turn a few thou off the collar.

Now there’s a slight relaxation to this rule. If, after a days shooting, a gap between the rear of the fore-end and face of the butt socket opens up, up to .010”, then this is acceptable providing that there’s no noticeable play fore and aft (there won’t be if you’ve adjusted the collar correctly …) and the correct bearings at the reinforce, draws, magazine well sides and muzzle are intact.




Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 27 2020 at 5:16am
Headspace gauges arrived from Tectal. Lo and behold it spaces on the field with original "0" bolt head but the head over clocks more than I'd like. I bought a complete bolt primarily for a now rare #2 bolt head (throwing money at the problem with fingers crossed). Result: perfect clocking with spacing on the "no go". Round one. After hours of sweat, wash, rinse, repeat in an effort to maintain as much patina as possible, the forend is ready for surgery with T-88 epoxy and a new pin for the tie plate. Wood still darkens to the prior "red/brown" when wetted but grain is clear of cosmoline, particularly in repair area at the heel. I had thought originally of using threadded brass for the pin but the smallest I can find is 3/32 which would require drilling both the plate and the stock perfectly. Electing instead for 1/16 smooth brass epoxied in. Last issue if all goes well with surgery is matching butt stock color. Don't know if it was added later but it's beech like the rest of the wood, but maintains an orange hue and after repeat cleanings comes up significantly lighter than the rest though most jaundice is gone. Hopefully Transtint Red/brown can help tie things together. Wish me luck...l.

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Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: September 27 2020 at 10:22am
Good job, Fazak48!

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 27 2020 at 12:44pm
My house is nearly 150 years old and largely original down to having made some of my own clapboard for repairs. I'm a preservationist. Trying not to Bubba the old girl for my first foray into refurbishing a surplus.

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Posted By: pisco
Date Posted: September 27 2020 at 9:23pm
I have a couple of no4 sporter stocks you can have them if you want to get the tie plate of them


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: September 28 2020 at 3:10am
Mighty generous pisco....

If I botch things I might take you up....

Canuck, where in the Great White North are ya? Can't travel there these days but can almost throw a rock and hit a Brewer's Retail from the buffalo area. Been up to Algonquin, Cedar Lake, Mattawa and North Bay a few times.


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Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: September 28 2020 at 8:26am
I live in British Columbia, 15 minutes from the Washington state border.

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Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually


Posted By: MJ11
Date Posted: September 28 2020 at 9:40am
Stop messing around and contact Brian d**k LTD he will fix you up first try.



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The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 28 2020 at 10:22am
Fazak48
There is an unissued or unused complete No4Mk1 stock set on eBay right now. Buy it, or as MJII has stated, contact Brian d**k at BDLLTD.COM. 


Posted By: Fazak48
Date Posted: October 18 2020 at 1:37pm
Assuming the consensus is "Newbie/Bubba", let a professional handle it....I forged ahead anyways and completed the repair using the T-88 epoxy. Solid as a rock. 

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