Print Page | Close Window

1949 No.4, Mk2

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10927
Printed Date: January 17 2021 at 5:36pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 1949 No.4, Mk2
Posted By: devrep
Subject: 1949 No.4, Mk2
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:29pm
some of you know I was looking at a 1944 No. 4, Mk 1/2 at a flea market and were helping educate me on what to check before purchasing.  the story I put in the other post, went back today with a bunch of tools to check it out and the vendor forgot to bring it back for me to look at.  probably thought I was just another tire kicker.

anyway, walked down the row in the flea market in disgust and about 10 tables away found this Mark 2.  Warning purists!
the previous owner had put a shiny poly finish on the furniture.  don't hate me.  Big smile   the story I got from this vendor was that it was the hunting rifle of a guy who passed away in his late 80's and family said he put the poly on to protect the wood from the florida climate.  believe me it is coming off asap.

guy was asking $360.00 but I messed with it so long looking it over and poking things in the barrel he got nervous and said gimme $300.00 and it's yours.  so I did.

comments and critique welcome.  remember I know nothing so happy to learn.


-------------
double gun



Replies:
Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:30pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:32pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:33pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:34pm
import marking I guess.




-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:35pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:36pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:37pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:38pm
You got that cheap! It looks pretty good. The finish on the wood isn't obnoxious so I would probably leave it for the time being. Just give her a good cleaning and see how she shoots.


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:47pm
so, wood is not loose at all, nice preload in the barrel at the fore-end cap.  tried loading a few seconds of phone vid showing me pushing the muzzle end around with my thumb and index finger.  newb trying to check the barrel preload. can't get it to post.



-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Bear43 Bear43 wrote:

You got that cheap! It looks pretty good. The finish on the wood isn't obnoxious so I would probably leave it for the time being. Just give her a good cleaning and see how she shoots.
he!! no, I hate home done glossy poly finishes.  I have a few double guns like that but they're factory finishes so I leave them.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

Originally posted by Bear43 Bear43 wrote:

You got that cheap! It looks pretty good. The finish on the wood isn't obnoxious so I would probably leave it for the time being. Just give her a good cleaning and see how she shoots.
he!! no, I hate home done glossy poly finishes.  I have a few double guns like that but they're factory finishes so I leave them.

 
You have made a very decent purchase of a NoMk2 Fazackerly made Enfield that quite possibly saw some use in Korea or some other conflicts in that time frame. If you are a collector of military weapons such as this one,you may want to reconsider the stock refinishing. 


Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 2:22pm
I have one done just the same.  Paid twice as much.  I'm real happy with it as it shoots great.
I was able to get a sling stamped "49, and a "pig sticker" bayonet.
Enjoy it!


-------------
For the pikes must be together at the rising of the moon.


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

Originally posted by Bear43 Bear43 wrote:

You got that cheap! It looks pretty good. The finish on the wood isn't obnoxious so I would probably leave it for the time being. Just give her a good cleaning and see how she shoots.
he!! no, I hate home done glossy poly finishes.  I have a few double guns like that but they're factory finishes so I leave them.

 
You have made a very decent purchase of a NoMk2 Fazackerly made Enfield that quite possibly saw some use in Korea or some other conflicts in that time frame. If you are a collector of military weapons such as this one,you may want to reconsider the stock refinishing. 
thanks.  could very well have been on patrol in israel also when the British were trying to stop the jews from taking back their country.  I don't think a poorly done poly home finish is going to help with value do you?  he even got some of it on the upper and lower bands near the foresight.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 5:15pm
so what I had to check the bore was a Garand bore gauge with 8 steps, .298 to .305, a .305 gauge pin and a 7.62 round.  in this pic the bore is not quite accepting the .303 step but when I checked it with 2 expensive and accurate micrometers the .303 step was actually .3025.  so that's pretty good.  of course the gauge pin wouldn't go in at all.  the crown looks excellent.




-------------
double gun


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 5:31pm
Alot of  those rifles produced that year were also dunked in vats of Suncorote black paint and drip dried in kilns along with the stock sets dipped in some type of sheIIac. It's your rifle to do with as you please but, when you find one in the condition you have found it in, a little research on where it went and where it ended up from just the serial number alone could uncover its history. I have a 1943 Savage No4Mk1* that I know saw service at the tail end of WWII just from researching the serial number. It is now a faithful rendition of the T sniper rifle and not a day goes by that I find myself reprimanding my decision to destroy its inherent history simply for the "Cool Factor".
That rifle will have various inspectors stamps along will coded stamps, ie; N79, M126, etc. If you take the time to document each one of these marks and post them here,we as a collective can offer a definitive of such markings and stamps.


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 5:50pm
well you make a good point and since there's no rush I will just leave it alone for now.  I'll have to take pics tomorrow of other various stamps that are visible and post them.  are there hidden marks I may miss that you know of?

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 6:31pm
On the barrel flat near the reciever, anywhere on the buttsocket,  the flatside of the reciever by the charging bridge just over the electro pencil markings. Just to name a few spots.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 6:32pm
You are never going to know unless you buy one, damn the consequences. 


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Honkytonk Honkytonk wrote:

You are never going to know unless you buy one, damn the consequences. 

meaning?  I just bought one.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 04 2020 at 7:12pm
any recommendation's for ammunition?  only .303 British at the flea market today was the stuff with steel casings.  not my cup of tea.  see what I did there?  (:

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 6:11am
I suspect it will be the first of many! They are addictive! As far as ammunition... that is another adventure on it's own. It seems like every rifle is a little different in their likes/dislikes. They'll all shoot any .303 bullet but it does take a bit of trial and error on hitting the right combination of powder/bullet weight for the rifle. Assuming you will be handloading at some point, always start with a minimum powder charge and work your way up. Some rifles like 180 gr projectiles, some 174 and others 150. You won't know until you experiment. I can tell you from experience (with my Lee Enfield, anyways) they perform the best with powder loads well south of maximum. Don't get disappointed if it isn't a tack driver. They weren't designed for that. As Goosic says, if you can cover the grouping with the palm of your hand, that's pretty good for a stock rifle. Of course, people on this site have a huge amount of knowledge in accurizing these old work horses! Best of luck and have fun!


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 7:21am
battle rifles were never intended to be competition target rifles, although some do work well for that (M14).  they were designed to hit a man in the chest basically.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 7:50am
I see ammo with 180, 174 1nd 150 grain bullets.  best?

also as far as off the shelf stuff, only sellier bellot and privi partizan are even close to reasonably priced at 19.95 a box.  federal and other top names are 34.95.  yikes!  I haven't bought ammo for a long time as I have a pretty good stock.  prices are out of sight.  will be worse soon re: the election.

for my M1A I use bulk surplus ammo, have ya'll had any luck with surplus in the Enfield?


-------------
double gun


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 8:37am
Surplus military .303 ball ammo was probably loaded with fairly generous +/- tolerances, the main factor being quantity. Not to say some doesn't shoot well out of Lee Enfield, but for me, to wring out all the accuracy the rifle is capable of without accurizing it, handloading and experimentation is the way to go. Reloading isn't a huge savings in money, but you can get some pretty consistent ammunition... then it's all up to the nut behind the wheel!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 8:42am
Prvi Partizan from the former Yugoslavia is a good bet & its reloadable.
Get the 1890 gr as it'll print close to the POA with the issue iron sights.
Don't let the low price fool you its good ammo at a great price.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 8:55am
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

  federal and other top names are 34.95.  yikes!  

What you probably class as 'top names' are generally the 'worst names' when it come to 303.

Military 303 has much 'stonger' cases and thicker rims than the likes of Win & Rem.

The US manufacturers building to the the SAAMI specifications tend to build to a price and at the bottom end of the specifications, whilst Prvi Partisan build towards the top end of the specs.

A couple examples of Win 303 case and PP 303 cases.

The rim thickness specification is 0.054" min and 0.064" max 

One reads 0.058" and the other 0.062"

Look at the case wall thickness.

Which do you think are the Win ?










Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 8:58am
Originally posted by Honkytonk Honkytonk wrote:

Surplus military .303 ball ammo was probably loaded with fairly generous +/- tolerances, the main factor being quantity. Not to say some doesn't shoot well out of Lee Enfield, but for me, to wring out all the accuracy the rifle is capable of without accurizing it, handloading and experimentation is the way to go. Reloading isn't a huge savings in money, but you can get some pretty consistent ammunition... then it's all up to the nut behind the wheel!
I have a bunch of old school reloading gear but honestly haven't used it for years.  I like to shoot but my vision isn't what it used to be so neither are my expectations.  I probably shouldn't even be using open sights anymore but old habits die hard.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Prvi Partizan from the former Yugoslavia is a good bet & its reloadable.
Get the 1890 gr as it'll print close to the POA with the issue iron sights.
Don't let the low price fool you its good ammo at a great price.

I've heard good things about it.  I have a bunch of 7.62 surplus Hirtenberger (austria) that's 40 or more years old and it shoots great.

thanks!


-------------
double gun


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 9:10am
As Shamu has stated.  Your best bet for off the shelf stuff will be the Privi Partisan/PPU stuff. The 174grn FMJBT will be as close to the original service ammunition as you can get and will definitely get you on the target. The 150 and 180grn rounds will also get you printing on the target as well. The rifle will be your ultimate decision maker as to what pill it prefers.


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 9:16am
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

  federal and other top names are 34.95.  yikes!  

What you probably class as 'top names' are generally the 'worst names' when it come to 303.

Military 303 has much 'stonger' cases and thicker rims than the likes of Win & Rem.

The US manufacturers building to the the SAAMI specifications tend to build to a price and at the bottom end of the specifications, whilst Prvi Partisan build towards the top end of the specs.

A couple examples of Win 303 case and PP 303 cases.

The rim thickness specification is 0.054" min and 0.064" max 

One reads 0.058" and the other 0.062"

Look at the case wall thickness.

Which do you think are the Win ?








that's true for most military brass.  not only the thickness but the alloys are usually better.  I have quite a bit of this Garand AP left.  my dad got a full wooden case of this and another of tracer (orange tip) from his national guard major best friend back in the late 70's.  we would pull the bullets, re-weigh the powder accurately and reload the brass with hunting bullets.  the brass is so good you could reload them over and over.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 9:27am
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

that's true for most military brass.  not only the thickness but the alloys are usually better.  I have quite a bit of this Garand AP left.  my dad got a full wooden case of this and another of tracer (orange tip) from his national guard major best friend back in the late 70's.  we would pull the bullets, re-weigh the powder accurately and reload the brass with hunting bullets.  the brass is so good you could reload them over and over.

Indeed, the likes of HXP military surplus is the best, but my point was that PP is Civilian (modern) ammunition but made closely to the miltary specs, rather than the SAAMI specs.


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 10:49am
understood.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 11:16am
PPU is very good stuff; I use 174 gr for target shooting and then reload the cases. They are a good basis to evaluate your rifle. Hand loads may improve a bit over the PPU; but not by much!
I would suggest you shoot it before taking it apart. If it's really good; maybe wait before you strip it down to do the wood.


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 12:57pm
Be advised theres an ammo shortage of many popular calibers right now. .303 isn't the most "go to" one for the AR .223/5.56 brigade, but strike while the iron is hot or you may find some ammo hoarder grabbed the lot.
Thumbs Up


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

PPU is very good stuff; I use 174 gr for target shooting and then reload the cases. They are a good basis to evaluate your rifle. Hand loads may improve a bit over the PPU; but not by much!
I would suggest you shoot it before taking it apart. If it's really good; maybe wait before you strip it down to do the wood.

yeah, I am really loathe to remove the furniture as touchy as you guys are telling me fore-end and handguard fit is for accuracy.  will def shoot it before I do anything.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Be advised theres an ammo shortage of many popular calibers right now. .303 isn't the most "go to" one for the AR .223/5.56 brigade, but strike while the iron is hot or you may find some ammo hoarder grabbed the lot.
Thumbs Up
you got that right.  went back online and now can't find any PPU available.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:27pm
Member Goosic asked for pics of stamps and markings.  here come a bunch.  probably nothing out of the ordinary but I'm up for some learning.



-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:27pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:28pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:29pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:30pm


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:30pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:31pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:31pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:32pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:33pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:34pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:35pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:36pm
and what the heck is this little loop for at the magazine?  for some type of lanyard?

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:40pm
Tying a canvas breech  cover down.
Originally for a "chain" on the (much older guns) to keep the magazine from getting lost.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

.


That appears to be a No5 rifle trigger guard (waisted as part of the weight reduction design)
I've not seen many No4 Mk2's but the ones I have seen have had No4 trigger guards.


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Tying a canvas breech  cover down.
Originally for a "chain" on the (much older guns) to keep the magazine from getting lost.
cool.  thanks.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

.


That appears to be a No5 rifle trigger guard (waisted as part of the weight reduction design)
I've not seen many No4 Mk2's but the ones I have seen have had No4 trigger guards.
that is weird.  the inletting is def not for this guard is it.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 3:32pm
The light struck U with the m inside on top of the reciever is a South Africa ownership/issue stamp. The #0 bolthead is typically the smallest in length.  If your headspace is correct,  in theory you have three more bolthead sizes to go before the rifle would need to be rebarrelled. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

.


That appears to be a No5 rifle trigger guard (waisted as part of the weight reduction design)
I've not seen many No4 Mk2's but the ones I have seen have had No4 trigger guards.
My No4Mk1/2 Maltby had that same trigger guard. 


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

.


That appears to be a No5 rifle trigger guard (waisted as part of the weight reduction design)
I've not seen many No4 Mk2's but the ones I have seen have had No4 trigger guards.
My No4Mk1/2 Maltby had that same trigger guard. 
good to know it wasn't a bubba mod.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

.


That appears to be a No5 rifle trigger guard (waisted as part of the weight reduction design)
I've not seen many No4 Mk2's but the ones I have seen have had No4 trigger guards.
My No4Mk1/2 Maltby had that same trigger guard. 
good to know it wasn't a bubba mod.
My honest opinion is that the rifle is all original.  The Suncorote paint and the sheIIaced wood along with South Africa ownership stamp is what lead me to this conclusion.  It should be noted here however that, the cross screw in the forestock is facing the wrong direction.  All screws in a No4Mk1/2 start in on the left side with the internal threads on the right...


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 5:26pm
I read about the screws going in from the left but didn't even notice that.  I can fix that lol.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 5:58pm
The reason I don't think that the furniture finish is original is that it has virtually no wear or damage.  that is unlikely for a 73 year old rifle unless it spent its life in a closet.  we know that isn't the case by looking at the myriad chips and dings in the black paint on the metal work.  also, when handling the weapon it feels like a polyurethane finish, not she!!ac.  would love to be wrong.

did you know that authentic she!!ac is a secretion from an insect?  it is very prone to peeling with age.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 6:08pm
I think you got an exceptional deal on a fine rifle.  Congratulations! 

Get some PPU 174 gr Ammunition.  Save the cases and reload them using 174 gr SMKs or Hornady BTHP with 40.0 gr of a medium burn powder such as IMR 4064, Re 15, Varget, or Norma 202.   

This rifle should shoot just fine, more accurate than the M1 and M14/M1A, comparable to a well set up 1903, perhaps better. 

Don’t take the forend off until you are sure you fully understand how the angled “draws” surfaces work to wedge the forend tight to the reciever.  You can wreck accuracy by doing it wrong.  Leave well enough alone.  Check all screws, the front trigger guard screw should be quite snug.  If bolt handle and receiver serial numbers match, headspace check is probably not necessary.  








Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

The reason I don't think that the furniture finish is original is that it has virtually no wear or damage.  that is unlikely for a 73 year old rifle unless it spent its life in a closet.  we know that isn't the case by looking at the myriad chips and dings in the black paint on the metal work.  also, when handling the weapon it feels like a polyurethane finish, not she!!ac.  would love to be wrong.

did you know that authentic she!!ac is a secretion from an insect?  it is very prone to peeling with age.
The king screw has not been molested and the trigger gaurd screw recess is not damaged as well. If it was a bubba refinish ,  there would be tells. Is there any scratch marks on metal where the upper barrel band is? Marks left by someone pushing the barrel band over the metal to remove it? The barrel band screws would also have been marked from where a screwdriver had been. 


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 6:57pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 6:57pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 7:08pm
 That rifle is unmolested.  As I had stated earlier. It is your rifle to do with as you please. If you do refurbish the wood, take your time. Alot of oil is going to leach out of the wood. A good black VHT header paint or BBQ paint will touch up the Suncorote. 
Keep us updated on your progress...


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 05 2020 at 7:42pm
like I said, not going to touch it for now.  never will if it turns out to be original. the marked up black paint doesn't bother me at all.  I would never touch that up.  in fact I would never touch up the finish on any old service rifle unless someone already had ruined it.  I like the beat up character of old rifles.  if you saw the pics in my other thread of my old hunting rifle the wood finish is beat to he!! from dragging it thru the brush for decades,  I would never refinish it and wipe out all that character.   the other pic on that thread is my M1A carbine.  first thing I did with it was pull off the new plastic stock and put on a scratched up surplus M14 wood stock,  I even left the rack number stencil on it.  these old rifles have the history of young men carrying their lives in their hands.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 5:06am
Are there any serial numbers stamped on the top of the butt stock wrist (just behind the receiver butt socket) and on the bottom of the forend behind the front band? 

My two Mk 2’s and my Mk 1/3 have a similar stock finish as your rifle.  The stocks on the Mk 2’s are beech, the Mk 1/3 is maple.  I don’t know when that finish was applied, but it was prior to my Dad getting the rifles back in the 1960’s.  


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 5:53am
That finish does look thick, hard and shiny. You might be able to knock down the shine with some extra fine steel wool without taking the furniture off. As mentioned, VHT and flat black header paint produce a very nice resilient finish. I'm guessing with the current finish, linseed oil touch ups won't work as yours looks more like a Birchwood Casey or urethane type gloss. Nice looking rifle and keep us posted on how it shoots!


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 6:49am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Are there any serial numbers stamped on the top of the butt stock wrist (just behind the receiver butt socket) and on the bottom of the forend behind the front band? 

My two Mk 2’s and my Mk 1/3 have a similar stock finish as your rifle.  The stocks on the Mk 2’s are beech, the Mk 1/3 is maple.  I don’t know when that finish was applied, but it was prior to my Dad getting the rifles back in the 1960’s.  
no markings in the wood.  I thought maybe they were sanded out but there are zero sanding scratches and the wood is quite proud of all the metal parts,  usually you can tell when a stock is over sanded.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 7:04am
Originally posted by Honkytonk Honkytonk wrote:

That finish does look thick, hard and shiny. You might be able to knock down the shine with some extra fine steel wool without taking the furniture off. As mentioned, VHT and flat black header paint produce a very nice resilient finish. I'm guessing with the current finish, linseed oil touch ups won't work as yours looks more like a Birchwood Casey or urethane type gloss. Nice looking rifle and keep us posted on how it shoots!

exactly what I was thinking.  a light application of OOOO steel wool would knock the shine down.  def looks like urethane to me.  rock hard to a fingernail.  the finish was also applied completely over the  fore-end cap halves but none is on upper band which clamps them together.

looking closely with a bright light, I think a light stain was applied either mixed in the urethane or under it,  I think this is actually one of those very blond stocks.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 7:24am
If you only want to take the shine down use a piece of sacking (burlap or Hemp) & scrub well. Its an even finer abrasive than steel wool & won't leave 'Fibers" sticking out.Thumbs Up


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 7:49am
I think I actually have a small burlap bag in my shop.  never thought of that.   thanks.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 9:07am
I've never shot Privi ammunition, but I do use their brass for reloading. Top notch and I've got at least four or five reloads on most brass with no obvious "fairy ring." I did just receive a full box (48) of 1944 z that I'll try next range season, but I spent a lot of time experimenting and feel I'm pretty close to as good as I can shoot so I'm not expecting better performance. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 9:14am
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

(the finish was also applied completely over the  fore-end cap halves but none is on upper band which clamps them together.)
What you just described is what Enfield did to the wood furniture before assembly to the metal bits on the occasions that they saw fit to do this. These were battle implements and no one person manufacturing them cared what they looked like as long as it worked. Yes, the recommended procedure was using Linseed Oil. However, when the Fazackerly plant was transferred to Pakistan Wah Cannt, their fit and finish of the wood and metal parts,depending on its final destination, left little to desire.
Your rifle was produced at the Pakistan plant...



Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 9:39am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

(the finish was also applied completely over the  fore-end cap halves but none is on upper band which clamps them together.)
What you just described is what Enfield did to the wood furniture before assembly to the metal bits on the occasions that they saw fit to do this. These were battle implements and no one person manufacturing them cared what they looked like as long as it worked. Yes, the recommended procedure was using Linseed Oil. However, when the Fazackerly plant was transferred to Pakistan Wah Cannt, their fit and finish of the wood and metal parts,depending on its final destination, left little to desire.
Your rifle was produced at the Pakistan plant...

how do you know that?  

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 9:41am
Being 1949 date I believe this rifle is British made at Fazakerly plant. The Pakistan Wah Cant factory took over production from Fazakerly in the 1950's.




-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 9:47am
PF serial number prefix.  Pakistan Ordnance Fazackerly 


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 9:52am
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

(the finish was also applied completely over the  fore-end cap halves but none is on upper band which clamps them together.)
What you just described is what Enfield did to the wood furniture before assembly to the metal bits on the occasions that they saw fit to do this. These were battle implements and no one person manufacturing them cared what they looked like as long as it worked. Yes, the recommended procedure was using Linseed Oil. However, when the Fazackerly plant was transferred to Pakistan Wah Cannt, their fit and finish of the wood and metal parts,depending on its final destination, left little to desire.
Your rifle was produced at the Pakistan plant...

how do you know that?  


It was the BSA machinery that was shipped to POF

The BSA contract with the UK MOD was to retain manufacturing and servicing capability for 10 years after the last production, so it was in 1955 the machinery was sold to POF.






Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 10:12am
I stand corrected, thank you Armourer, yes it was BSA that sent equipment to Pakistan in the 50's
This rifle would be Fazakerly built. 


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 10:45am
I saw the PF mark of course but everything Pakistan I have read was POF not PF.  same they the same?

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 10:48am
I must say that I would have been somewhat disappointed to hear it was not built in Britain.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 10:55am
Thank you for the correction The Armourer


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 10:58am
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

I must say that I would have been somewhat disappointed to hear it was not built in Britain.
Though not as admired as a Maltby or BSA made Enfield.  Savage and Long Branch made Enfields are very collectable and sought after.


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 11:00am
Goosic, I appreciate your passion to save a possibly original battle rifle from bubba Shocked.  I feel the same way.  

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 11:43am
def wasn't singling those out as inferior.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 11:57am
so to put this wood finish issue to bed I'm going to do one more photo bomb, sorry.

as repeatedly stated I know nothing about Enfield's (well more than I did thanks to this group) but I collect vintage double barreled shotguns both side by side and I also have 5 or 6 old superposed's.  I have 23 double shotguns ranging from an 1890 Colt 12 gauge to the Browning's into the 1960's.  so I am pretty adept at being able to tell original finishes.

here's my take.  this weapon, though in excellent condition was used a fair bit if not in war then on regular patrols and normal duty or at the very least regular hunting (I don't think it was discharged much though).  I make that statement based on the condition of the black paint on the steel parts.  the wood finish shows zero dings, scratches, peeling and there is clearly a wood stain in or under the clear finish.  the clear finish also does not resemble any low tech product that would have been around in 1949 imho.

welcome your opinions after reviewing these new photos.


-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 11:58am
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 11:58am
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 11:59am
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 11:59am
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 12:00pm
.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 12:01pm
also in the outdoor light now I do see evidence of sanding.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 12:16pm
I also see sanding marks, particularily in the middle part of the right hand side butt stock and some orange peeling. It looks in overall nice shape, but the finish looks recent and not done all that well. That being said, I'd have bought it in a minute.


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

I saw the PF mark of course but everything Pakistan I have read was POF not PF.  same they the same?

Your rifle was built by RoF Fazakerley (Fazakerley is a suburb of Liverpool).
The PF is the serial number prefix which was used (amongst other prefix's) for the production of Post War rifles.

Your serial number falls in the first batch of Mk2 production

PF 118000 PF 217999 N/K 100,000 Start of Mk II Production.





Here are some of the PF prefix rifle contract (serial numbers, customer and quantity of rifles)



PF301547-PF304047 Anglo Egyptian Sudan 2,500
PF 309348-PF359347 Irish Republic 50,000
PF359348-PF359817 Zambia 70
PF359818-PF359952 Singapore 135
PF 359952-PF360052 Jamaica 100
PF360053-PF360202 Trinidad 150
PF360263-PF360238 St. Vincent 36
PF360239-PF360258 St. Kitts 36
PF360460-PF381159 Uganda 20,700
PF361260-PF401086 Burma 38,827
PF 405293-PF405412 St Vincent 20
PF407449-PF407648 Trinidad 200
PF407849-PF407728 Zanzibar 80
PF411265-PF411461 Kenya 197
PF411462-PF411471 Hong Kong 10




Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 12:25pm

Duplicate post


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 12:34pm
According to this ownership stamp, the rifle was in South Africa at one point in time. 


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

I saw the PF mark of course but everything Pakistan I have read was POF not PF.  same they the same?

Your rifle was built by RoF Fazakerley (Fazakerley is a suburb of Liverpool).
The PF is the serial number prefix which was used (amongst other prefix's) for the production of Post War rifles.

Your serial number falls in the first batch of Mk2 production

PF 118000 PF 217999 N/K 100,000 Start of Mk II Production.





Here are some of the PF prefix rifle contract (serial numbers, customer and quantity of rifles)



PF301547-PF304047 Anglo Egyptian Sudan 2,500
PF 309348-PF359347 Irish Republic 50,000
PF359348-PF359817 Zambia 70
PF359818-PF359952 Singapore 135
PF 359952-PF360052 Jamaica 100
PF360053-PF360202 Trinidad 150
PF360263-PF360238 St. Vincent 36
PF360239-PF360258 St. Kitts 36
PF360460-PF381159 Uganda 20,700
PF361260-PF401086 Burma 38,827
PF 405293-PF405412 St Vincent 20
PF407449-PF407648 Trinidad 200
PF407849-PF407728 Zanzibar 80
PF411265-PF411461 Kenya 197
PF411462-PF411471 Hong Kong 10


awesome.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

According to this ownership stamp, the rifle was in South Africa at one point in time. 
that's a pretty cool thing.

-------------
double gun


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 1:05pm
If the rifle shoots well; that would imply that the wood is a good fit in all the necessary areas.
Removing the wood for refinishing and refitting should not alter the shooting quality if the removal and refit are done properly. But if the removal procedure is not followed, you could affect the accuracy.

It's not that complicated; but easy to make mistakes if you haven't done your homework first. 
These rifles are very engaging to own and use. This is a good rifle to start your collection; but I bet that it willnot be the last!
I started off with a No4Mk1/2 (a Maltby made rifle FTR'd to mk2 spec by Fazakerly); it now shares the safe with 7 other's! 


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: November 06 2020 at 1:20pm
I absolutely know how that goes.  I didn't even own a shotgun when I inherited my grandfather's Parker Brothers model DHE.  I had only seen it a couple of times as a child as my dad kept it hidden away.  over a year or so of researching it I got hooked on collecting vintage doubles.  I think a No1 Mk3 in excellent shape might be nice (:



-------------
double gun



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net