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How Equipment Accuracy Affects the Bottom Line

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Topic: How Equipment Accuracy Affects the Bottom Line
Posted By: britrifles
Subject: How Equipment Accuracy Affects the Bottom Line
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 2:30pm
I was looking for pointers on a stable Sitting Position for Service Rifle shooting and came across this video.  If you are curious about how much the accuracy of your rifle and ammo combination affects your ability to hit the center of the target, watch this video.  Stick with it.  For many of you, it will have some very non-intuitive conclusions. 

 This will be of interest to those who shoot in our Lee Enfield Forum Virtual Match in the Service Rifle Class.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBIligz1NlU" rel="nofollow -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBIligz1NlU





Replies:
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 13 2021 at 7:48pm
 My main question is, why does this person deem it necessary to fire off 4800 rounds of ammunition to establish where a particular rifle is shooting in regards to its MOA capabilities? 
If I averaged out the cost of my 308W ammunition at $1.25 per round,  I would need $6000.00 worth of ammunition to duplicate his spreadsheet. 
The other factor would be barrel life. I personally have fired 275 rounds out of my faux L8A5T. Add the additional 4800 rounds as this gentleman suggests and I am at 5075 rounds and I have a barrel that is now at 50% of its usable life expectation. The MOA would enlarge regardless of how well tuned the rifle and ammunition is after that many thousands of rounds have been fired through that barrel. I have one rifle that is my go to target rifle. The trigger has been adjusted for optimal let off with a wide cantilever trigger shoe added for consistent let off. The barrel was cryogenically frozen prior to installation.  It has 7 groove micro rifling with a 1-10" twist rate.  The initial three shot test group fired from it produced a tiny triangle shaped hole measuring .325" 
The ammunition used is a 168grn SMK bullet sitting on top of 40.0grns of N202 and seated to an O.A.L. of 2.755 ". It has had 500 rounds through it to date. My groups for each target is ten rounds apiece using five targets only. I then add up the five individual horizontal and lateral spread of each group, do the math and get my average. 50 rounds total for every range session with this rifle. That is ten times at the range to date and the averaged MOA was established after the first 50 rounds.
I think I very well might have missed what was being expressed in the video.  I found it very counterintuitive...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 4:21am
Not sure when he did that work.  There were several shooters and rifles involved to collect the basic data.  I’m certainly not going to repeat that experiment.  

I think he used that data to develop distributions of the basic variables involved and then ran Monte Carlo simulations with these distributions to develop the statistical conclusions.  

I’m really not surprised by this, I know from my own experience that shooter skill is the single largest factor in what happens on the target.   That is obvious from the data collected.  But what is not so obvious is the very small, if any, gain made for increasingly accurate rifles and ammo.  An improvement from 1 MOA to 3/4 MOA rifle and ammo combination has no effect on the scores.  The 10 ring on the MR target is 2 MOA.  Only 2 points out of 200 possible (20 shot sting) were gained with improving the rifle/ammo accuracy from 2 MOA to 1 MOA.  

The reason for this is that the rifles are not fired from a bench rest and most are shot with aperture sights.  So, there is considerable error in holding steady, repeatable sight picture and aim, trigger release, etc.  The Monte Carlo simulation will show that sometimes a less accurate rifle will be an advantage as an error in holding or sight picture will be countered by an opposite error in rifle/ammo accuracy.  I.e an aiming error to the left is countered by a shot that would have otherwise gone to the right of the group. So when these probabilities are included in the analysis, rifle/ammo accuracy has only a minor effect.

What I got out of this is that you can be very competitive with a 2 MOA rifle/ammo.  And this is at 600 yards on the MR target which is the least forgiving target in Service Rifle shooting (smallest score rings in MOA).  The rifle/ammo accuracy will not limit you in Service Rifle match shooting unless of course it is not capable of holding 2 MOA.    Our No. 4 rifles will easily hold 2 MOA off the bench, perhaps even 1 MOA with handloads.  My average 10 shot group size off the bench with a scope was about 1.5 MOA with my Long Branch with handloads.  

None of this really apples to bench rest shooting with high power scopes.  Here, the rifle and ammo accuracy dominate.  

The conclusion here is that if you are not able to hold the 10 ring on the SR target (3.5 MOA) in prone slow fire,  don’t expect ultra precise match loads will fix that.  If your Lee Enfield won’t hold the 10 ring off the bench with a scope, it’s not likely a problem with the ammo either.  Quality match bullets will have an inherent accuracy of less than 1/2 MOA.  

I hear it time and time again from the top Service Rifle shooters, spend your time developing your skill in position shooting, not at the reloading bench.   That is good advice, except now, we can’t get powder and primers!  

You can develop position shooting skill by dry firing.  I find that rather boring to do, but it does work.  







Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 7:40am
You initially stated that you were looking for a stable sitting position. The sitting position I was taught and that I have taught to my teenager produce positive results.  All of the horizontal and lateral movements are controlled with the non shooting hand. The elbows are employed as a rear bipod setup with the stock resting on anything of sufficient substance.  Your body position is almost 90° to the rifle as well. Short of locking the rifle into one of those bench rest devices, this is as steady a position as it gets.  The picture shown here has my teenager demonstrating the described sitting position.  She wanted to try using the pictured sandbag but pushed it away after the first shot because it didn't let her control her X&Y axis of movement. This was the first time my daughter had fired this rifle. It was still chambered in 303B, and still had the No32Mk1 reproduction scope. Every shot hit the X ring after her initial sighting in was done...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 11:12am
Sorry, should have explained better.  The “Sitting Position” in Service Rifle competition is not the same as bench rest shooting.  You sit on the ground with legs or ankles crossed, elbows supported on the knees. No support under the rifle other than your hands.  A sling is used to help hold the rifle into your shoulder and steady the rifle.  This is shot at 200 yards on the SR target in rapid fire.  70 seconds starting with an unloaded rifle and a magazine change required after the first 2 shots (mags are loaded 2 and 8 rounds each).  

I had this awful rocking motion that I could not stop that was in time with my pulse.  It ran at least the full height of the 10 ring, and sometimes into the 9 ring.  I had to try and time my shots, which worked fairly well, but I would always throw one or two into the 9 ring in a 10 shot rapid fire string.  Sometimes more if I was rushing too much.

 Yesterday, I sat down on my living room floor and tried all kinds of combinations of feet, leg, elbow and support hand position.  I came up with a position that dramatically reduced the rocking motion.  It was dead steady except for some slight twitching I could see thru the scope.  I plan to dry fire practice every day until the Service Rifle match next week.  It’s all about finding a position that you can completely relax into, and maintain a natural point of aim without muscling the rifle into position. 




Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 11:32am
To improve my prone position; I need to get longer sling's. I'm not comfortable enough to get the regularity required.
The 1903 types that I have are at there longest on the No4 rifle; which is probably one or two holes off correct for me. But the No1MkIII* is longer between the sling attachements than the No4; with the No8  being even longer. So none of my 1903 type slings are comfortable on these two rifles. Even the Turner Biothane 53". The standard British made replica sling is only 47" on the long strap. That's much too short on the No4. I reckon I need 56" to be comfortable on the No1 and probably 58" for the No8.
I may try and get some leather slings made locally and I'll make the metal parts.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Sorry, should have explained better.  The “Sitting Position” in Service Rifle competition is not the same as bench rest shooting.  You sit on the ground with legs or ankles crossed, elbows supported on the knees. No support under the rifle other than your hands.  A sling is used to help hold the rifle into your shoulder and steady the rifle.  This is shot at 200 yards on the SR target in rapid fire.  70 seconds starting with an unloaded rifle and a magazine change required after the first 2 shots (mags are loaded 2 and 8 rounds each).  
I had this awful rocking motion that I could not stop that was in time with my pulse.  It ran at least the full height of the 10 ring, and sometimes into the 9 ring.  I had to try and time my shots, which worked fairly well, but I would always throw one or two into the 9 ring in a 10 shot rapid fire string.  Sometimes more if I was rushing too much.
 Yesterday, I sat down on my living room floor and tried all kinds of combinations of feet, leg, elbow and support hand position.  I came up with a position that dramatically reduced the rocking motion.  It was dead steady except for some slight twitching I could see thru the scope.  I plan to dry fire practice every day until the Service Rifle match next week.  It’s all about finding a position that you can completely relax into, and maintain a natural point of aim without muscling the rifle into position. 
Try this position.  It has never failed me...


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 12:42pm
See if you can find a Bren gun sling!
https://talesfromthesupplydepot.blog/2018/09/29/bren-gun-sling/" rel="nofollow - https://talesfromthesupplydepot.blog/2018/09/29/bren-gun-sling/


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 2:19pm
Sham, the 1903 sling works great for prone and sitting.  Rules are kinda particular...

Goosic, the magazine on the AR makes that position pretty difficult.  I tried adjusting the length of the butt stock and can’t get a comfortable stable position.  Looks like what I figured out yesterday will work for me, it’s incredibly stable.  My boots are supporting lower legs (right boot under left leg, left boot under right leg).  I have direct contact from both elbows to my knees to my lower legs and boots to the ground.  Firm grip on pistol grip, pulling back with moderate pressure.  Support hand is held with wrist straight and a “V” is formed between thumb and first finger for the supporting the forend, held well back on the hand guard, a few inches in front of the magazine.  I can completely relax my body into the sling, not using any muscles to stay in position.  And no body movement, that’s the most important part.   I’ll find out this week at the 800 aggregate Service Rifle match how well it works...

We don’t shoot the sitting position in the CMP Games events (M1, Springfield, Vintage Military bolt rifles, and Modern Military), so this is something I’ve had to sort out since I started shooting Hi Power / AR Service Rifle. 





Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 2:41pm
I have the same problem with my SMLE. the sling is actually on hole #1, the last one!


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 2:46pm
I’ll get someone to take a picture of my sitting position.  That’s if it works out for me on Thursday.  I don’t see why it should not.  Way more stable than it have ever been for me.  


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 2:49pm
Sitting was always my weak spot. I did better kneeling if it was permitted.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 11:38am
Shamu, I switched to the 1903 type slings in 2019. Got 2 from Turner Saddlery in the USA; one Leather and one Biothane. Both are longer than the standard British made 1903 type for the No4 Sniper kit.
I bought a British made leather replica1903; it looks the part; but is only 47" on the main strap. It's too short on the last hole for the No4; and no chance on the SMLE or No8.

I'm looking at contacting a French saddlery to see if they can make longer straps to a similar pattern. 
If they can do that for a reasonable price, I may get a few made up. I reckon a 10 " addition will be enough for the No8 and SMLE. I'm certain it will make a huge difference to the prone position.

Our  service rifle competitions are shot prone; except the trainer .22 class which has both prone and standing.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:12pm
I got mine from a guy who makes them here exactly "to Spec" but the spec for the 03's & the Garnds is about 6~8" shorter than is comfortable with the SMLE.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:20pm
Shamu, could you measure your sling's main strap length please?

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:45pm
The Turner Saddlery 1903 Biothane sling works brilliant.  I’ve got 4 of them and have used them for 5 or 6 years now. You can’t break them.    The long version needed for the No. 4 and M1.  Short version OK for AR.  


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:29pm
The "long front end"?
From the "U" bend in the hook to the tip of the rounded opposite end 52" exactly


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:33am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

The Turner Saddlery 1903 Biothane sling works brilliant.  I’ve got 4 of them and have used them for 5 or 6 years now. You can’t break them.    The long version needed for the No. 4 and M1.  Short version OK for AR.  

I bought one for my AR and used it a few matches, 

I could not get comfortable (yes, comfort is relative)  with it and switched back to my tried and true leather version , 




Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 11:28am
Thanks Shamu. The Turner slings I have are 52" for the leather and I think 53or 54" for the Biothane. I'll have to check.
The British made leather version is supposed to be the spec for the No4T rifle; but it's only 47".
I'm only 5'9" tall and fairly skinny; but on the No4 rifles only the Biothane is reasonably comfortable.
The Turner leather sling is very thick, which does not help and is on the last hole on the No4 rifles; it needs at least 2 or 3 more holes.
As I mentioned previously; both SMLE and No8 are longer between the sling loops. Every extra inch on the rifle is 2" on the sling.




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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 11:41am
Zed, you need the 54/56 inch sling.   The hook is set to the fourth or fifth hole on mine for the No. 4.   It will vary somewhat, particularly in your body angle relative to the line of fire. 


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 12:11pm
Thanks. I'm currently toying with the idea of getting one made by a saddlery here. I can make the hooks etc if they can make the length of sling from leather.
I'll let you know if I get it done.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 12:56pm
The guy selling them here mentioned that there are several "authentic" lengths & the longest he makes for anything is 54"


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:13pm
im reading this and thinking how much trouble i have getting into a comfortable position these days and wondering if ill ever be able to even try this , i cant kneel for any length of time at all , i can sit if in a chair or such , if i go prone im needing time and effort to get back up , 

maybe ill just stick with my cowboy action i can stay standing all the time , no running & gunning , no reloads to speak of save that shotgun i fumble with , and we do our sitting at the campfire with a drink and ceegar and talk smart of how quick we were - once , 

ooops - this is the OT forum , i thought i was on the other thread you have to excuse my lack of attention on this one , i would like to know more of your AR , is this a st cloud DPMS or a becker ? or did you get one of the newer REM0DPMS from down south ? 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 17 2021 at 4:17am
A Square, the lower is a Sr Cloud DPMS.  I bought it new in 2013 as a Tactical Precision Rifle (A15 TPR).  It came with a moderate heavy 20 inch barrel.  

Last year, I modified it for CMP/NRA Service Rifle Match shooting.  I bought a complete AR-15 Service Rifle Upper from White Oak Armament that had a Wilson 20 inch barrel.  I also replaced the butt stock with a Magpul UBR stock that is adjustable in length which is very useful for the standing stage to be able to get proper eye relief on the scope.

I needed the lowest scope mount I could find to get proper eye position in the prone position, it’s a Geissele cantilever mount.  The Hi-Lux scope is designed for  “Across the course” Service Rifle Shooting, maximum power of 4X per the CMP Rules.  This rule change has enabled many shooters to stay competitive.  

After only 1500 rounds thru the Wilson barrel in the new upper, accuracy fell off dramatically.  I replaced the barrel with a Bartlein match barrel which cost about twice that of the Wilson.  The Bartlein should be good for 4,500 rounds. 

This rifle is a 1 MOA shooter with my handloads.  Easily shoots 100-10x in the prone position on the NRA SR Target at 200 yards, so it’s plenty accurate for Service Rifle shooting (subject of this thread).  

I shoot Sierra 69 grain Matchkings on the 200 and 300 yard lines which are loaded to magazine length (2.25 inch OAL) and 80 grain Sierra Matchkings for the 600 yard line, OAL of 2.45 inches which are fed single shot.  





Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 17 2021 at 1:25pm
interesting that your Wilson only lasted 1500 rounds,  
did you reach out to WO and let them know?

I have a friend that is a Distinguised HM, and swears by Bartlein, 




Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 17 2021 at 3:33pm
if its st cloud made it has all the original DPMS parts that were some of the best available , after they moved they got parts from other places , you should have a great rifle with the changes you made but i too was surprised at the short longevity of the wilson bbl , i would think it should have lasted much longer , but then i get that its all about accuracy here , i like the magpul stock as well , did you have to leave it bone stock or could you put JP trigger/hammer springs into it ? 

i have a st cloud made rifle with an ACOP 4x and carbine with magpul stock , as well as an earlier becker made with dedicated 22cal upper rifle , only difference is the year it was made and the facility they were operating from , even the people would have been pretty much the same for all of the essentials , one day i will post whenn i can get photos taken , 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 17 2021 at 6:14pm
That Bartlein barrel is excellent.   I know that if it doesn’t hit an X, it’s because of me.  I just ordered another one to have it ready when this one is shot out.  I got it from Compass Lake.  

I shot a 3x600 match today (three strings of 20 shots each at 600 yards) with the AR.  The first string was a dang fire drill.  It was pretty windy, storms all around the area.  My first sighter was a 5 at 3:00. I mistakenly dialed in 3 mins of right windage and should have put in 3 minutes left windage.  I corrected that, but none of the next 4 shots registered on the electronic target.  The Range Officer moved me over to a spare firing point.  By the time I got set up again, 10 minutes had passed into the 20 minute time limit.  I did not want to hold up the entire match with thunder storms approaching, so I shot my 2 sighters and 20 record shots as fast as I could (in single shot mode).  It was terrible, shots out in the 8 ring.  

Second 20 round string was better, a 98 and 95.  

I finished middle of the pack with a total of 569-15x.  Hoping for a better result tomorrow in the 80 round Service Rifle Match. 

Friday will be the M1 and No. 4.  




Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 17 2021 at 6:23pm
A Square, that DPMS is a nice rifle.  The trigger was near perfect, but it’s just on the edge of failing the trigger pull minimum weight.  I’m going to replace it with a Geissele adjustable trigger.  

Lyman, I probably should let WOA know about the barrel.  But it might be in part my own fault.  I think I loaded a bit too hot.  Published load data is just all over the place.  I backed down on my loads and I’ll see how long this Bartlein lasts.  The Wilson barrel is button rifled and is supposed to be good for 2500 rounds.  I changed it out at 1800 rounds, I was getting 4 MOA groups in prone, it had been shooting 2 MOA in prone up to about 1500 rounds.  


Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 18 2021 at 6:34am
Compass Lake does great work,   I have one of his Krieger SR uppers,  
bought it when I was going to shoot with the State Team, but then had to change occupations and that idea got put on the back burner,   

still have it in the back of the safe with maybe 300 rounds thru it, Cry

rarely get to shoot, so I just use  my Short Range gun, (A2 upper) or a Bushmaster I picked up a few years ago from a guy I know, it was his Wife's gun,  she stopped shooting as well,  so it is very low mileage, 
I did swap out the upper to a flat top, and put a Magpul UBR 1st gen on it, 
it's scoped with a Cabelas Mark AR scope now,  but may switch that out to a Leupold Mark AR type, 
it still has it's original barrel 

I need to sort it out,  load wise,  even with my diminished skills (no practice, no shooting for a long time) I know it (and I ) can do better , once we become accustomed to each other  Big smile








Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 18 2021 at 6:41am
re barrels, 

my first gun for SR was a standard A2, with a button rifled SS heavy  Barrel from SGW, 
SGW did a fine job with barrels back in the day, 

I put maybe 1500 rounds of ball (M193) thru it, then started reloading with 52's (no much) and 69 SMK's

the gun shot tight,  if I did my stuff I could get an honest 3/4 MOA in sitting and prone, 

then suddenly,  1.5 MOA,,  
figured maybe I had a bad day,  shot a match a month or so later and got the same, 

then the next it was a 2MOA gun, in some practice,, 

I found my old M16 throat gage and it swallowed it, 

practically a smooth bore for the first couple inches, , 

I was amazed at how the wear, which was done gradually over time,  did not affect accuracy at first, 

so that gun was rebarreled




Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 18 2021 at 12:52pm
 Day two of the Spring Classic Matches at Talladega.  

Winds were 15 to 20 across the range, right to left.  Gusting to 25 mph. Opposite direction of yesterday.  And, as luck would have it, I was on the other end of the firing line today, so no shelter from the berm on the windward side of the range.  In the standing position, my cross hairs were moving all over the target, a sudden gust would blow the aiming point right off the target.  I’m surprised I kept all 20 shots on the target...my approach was to pull the trigger when I saw the cross hairs enter the black.  Even then, I got a 5 on one shot...

Got caught in Prone Rapid at 300 yards, the wind eased during my first string (60 seconds) and didn’t see it.  A nice tiny 1 MOA group, but it was on the right edge of the 10 ring with a few 9’s.  

Slow Prone was interesting!  Needed 5 MOA right to correct for wind, the guys on the east end sheltered by the berm only needed 2 MOA.  The changing wind strength made it tough.  

So, there’s all my “excuses” for ending up with a mediocre score of 746-8x (out of 800 possible).  Of course, my shooting bud won the match, he usually does, he was on the other end of the firing line, and scored a 788-30x.  

Tomorrow is the M1 and No. 4 GSM Match.  

 



Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 19 2021 at 10:05am
Sounds like your having fun, despite the pour wind conditions.
Best of luck with the next round!


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 19 2021 at 4:06pm
Well, the Talladega Spring matches are over for me.  

Today, i shot in the M1 Garand Match and my No. 4 in the Vintage Military Rifle Match.  

I did ok in the M1 match, placed second.  Got beat out by one point.  But I smoked him in X ring count.  That new Krieger barrel is shooting great.  It was the highest score I’ve recorded with the M1 in a match.

My No. 4 was a different story.  In prone slow fire, I was hammering the a 10 and X ring, and after the 6th shot in the X ring, i did something really stupid.  I looked back over my shoulder and said to the range officer who was scoring for me, “these Brit Rifles shoot good, don’t they?”  I then realized, that was a dumb thing to do.  I put the rifle back into my shoulder and took up on the first stage on the trigger as the sights came onto the target and pulled the shot off accidentally.  Well, you idiot I thought.  I figured I had just lost 10 points.  But, it registered a 5 at 6:00, in the largest score ring on the SR target.  Lesson learned.



My prone rapid was sloppy after that stupid mistake.  Standing slow was OK. 

I somehow managed to shoot a Gold score with the No. 4, but with not a single point to spare. 

It was still a fun week and great to see all the guys.  We had quite a few who travelled from all over the country to shoot in this match.  



Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 1:49am
Thats excellent. You must be happy with the Garand!
 But such a shame that you bunged that one shot with the No4. At least you know exactly why it's in the 5 ring. Frustrating maybe; but it would be more so if you didn't know why it was in there!

I doubt we'll be getting any competitions this year. That's a real bummer!


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 4:33am
Thank you Zed.  

They were pretty cautious with the COVID protocols.  Every second firing point was closed, so we were spaced apart by about 20 feet.  We had to wear masks at all times except when shooting. 

I’m very pleased with the M1, it’s shooting about as good as my No. 4 now.  Out of 30 shots (10 each in Prone slow, prone rapid and standing slow), 10 were in the X ring.  

My shooting bud set a new Talladega match record with his Modern Military Rifle (AR), scoring a 296/300.  10 points higher than my M1 score.  That’s going to be tough to catch up to. 

If you guys want a challenge, try shooting the Virtual Match on the SR target in the standing off hand position.  No leaning up against a post or side of the bench either.  Then try and do this in 15 to 20 mph winds.  When I first started competing, my standing scores were in the low 70’s.  I’d usually have one shot a clean miss.  That’s 10 points down right there.  I’ve seen my shooting bud clean the SR target (all in the 10 ring) in the standing position.  Matches are won and lost in the standing position. 







Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 7:01am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Thank you Zed.  

If you guys want a challenge, try shooting the Virtual Match on the SR target in the standing off hand position.  No leaning up against a post or side of the bench either.  Then try and do this in 15 to 20 mph winds.  When I first started competing, my standing scores were in the low 70’s.  I’d usually have one shot a clean miss.  That’s 10 points down right there.  I’ve seen my shooting bud clean the SR target (all in the 10 ring) in the standing position.  Matches are won and lost in the standing position. 

Many,many years ago at the ripe old age of 18-19. I spent just over a month in an Advanced Marksmanship Program that taught shooting in limited visibility with varying weather conditions, stationary and moving targets. I was also taught On the Fly range estimating that included known and unknown firing distances after the target was acquired. During the LRPF portion of the program, I was taught how to use anything and everything at my disposal to aide with the accuracy of the shot. One of our challenges was to successfully stop a mechanical rabbit in a full run from three different shooting positions before the bunny made it to his safe box. 
Do the Talladega matches have anything similar to what I described?



Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 8:35am
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

Sounds like your having fun, despite the pour wind conditions.
Best of luck with the next round!

^^^ what Zed said,


Tongue


Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 8:39am
CMP/NRA service rifle matches are all fixed  or known distance, , stationary targets, 

no running bunnies


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 8:45am
Originally posted by lyman1903 lyman1903 wrote:

CMP/NRA service rifle matches are all fixed  or known distance, , stationary targets, 

no running bunnies
What a shame then. The CMP/NRA service rifle matches would certainly benefit from offering the program i mentioned...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 10:34am
I’ve shot in IDPA pistol matches with moving targets and also shot out of moving vehicles.  Definitely a challenge. 

The CMP (and DCM before that) and NRA military type matches have not really changed much since they began in the 1870’s.  They were intended to encourage marksmanship in the civil population and culminated in a yearly National Match in Creedmoor (later at Camp Perry) with the National Service Rifle.  The targets and rifles have changed, but the the 200/300/600 Yard National course has been around for a long time. 








Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 10:46am
I was one of the first round inductees into the course I mentioned when it was initiated in mid 1987 at Ft.Benning...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 11:21am
Some shooters find the Match Rules very annoying, and some of them do seem rather pointless.  But, they are intended to ensure no one has a technical advantage in equipment (although that’s not really possible as some rifles do shoot better than others).  The rules control the configuration of the rifle so people don’t start modifying them into match rifles.  They used to issue ammunition at the National Matches for years and stopped when the .30-06 M72 Ball was used up.  

The idea is to make it based on skill of shooting in the 4 basic positions.  It’s by no means “advanced” shooting skills such as what you described.  But, believe me, it is very competitive and we strive for that perfect score that has never (to my knowledge) been attained.   Perfect meaning a score of 800-80x across the National Course of fire.  All 80 shots in the X ring.  To do that, you would have to hold 1.5 MOA in standing and sitting rapid fire and 1 MOA in prone rapid fire at 300 yards and 1 MOA prone slow fire at 600 yards, with a Service Rifle.  It would take superhuman skill with some serious luck to pull that off. 








Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 1:02pm
Here’s how cool those electronic targets at the TMP are.  You can go online and watch the match, it will display all the targets and the hits as they happen in real time.  I watched the second day of the GSM match this afternoon from my back porch at my cabin (GSM - Garand, Springfield and Vintage Military Rifle Match).  

Despite my blunder yesterday with the No. 4, I managed to hold on to my first place in the Vintage Military Match.  Almost got bumped off 2nd place on in the M1 match, but I had a healthy X count.  2nd place doesn’t count for anything, but at least I know the M1 is finally shooting well.  





Obviously, I’ve become a match junkie, you have to be to sit there watching 20 targets on a screen and watch the bullet impacts appear (Virtually that is).  



Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 1:24pm
Where can you find the online video?


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 2:19pm
I used to shoot "full-bore" under the old I.S.U. rules.
Then the I.O.C. Took over & things like the exact color of the sling became an issue.
That was when I left because it was just politics.
I liked Shooting Match when it was just (kind of) mano a mano.
After the change I lost interest because when you aggregated & averaged your score was always the same.
Why bother anymore just give me my average. (aggregated over 3 years.)?


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Where can you find the online video?

Here is the link.  

https://thecmp.org/competitions/live-targets/" rel="nofollow - https://thecmp.org/competitions/live-targets/

Have to know when there is a match being run.  I think tomorrow is the last day. 






Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

I used to shoot "full-bore" under the old I.S.U. rules.
Then the I.O.C. Took over & things like the exact color of the sling became an issue.
That was when I left because it was just politics.
I liked Shooting Match when it was just (kind of) mano a mano.
After the change I lost interest because when you aggregated & averaged your score was always the same.
Why bother anymore just give me my average. (aggregated over 3 years.)?

Sham, the CMP matches are not nearly that stringent. And each match is its own event.  I really encourage it, members who live in the US and are interested in improving their shooting skill should look up CMP GSM Matches in their area.  


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 20 2021 at 9:44pm
Back to the original topic.
I have a M700P that I keep and maintain to the highest of standards and it is my go to target rifle.  It is good for nothing else other than a target rifle.
I also have a great all weather Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle that is my go to hunting rig. Both rifles are as accurate as can be expected directly from the factories they were manufactured at and can without fail,  deliver repeatedly MOA groups when the end user does his part. 
My Savage No4 that is currently in the guise of the L8A5T was purpose built the fill the gap between both rifles mentioned above.
It will never be a target rifle but, it can and does come close. It will never be used as a hunting rifle unless absolutely necessary.  So what is its intended purpose then? To make me work that much harder at maintaining my level of accuracy.  Every time I am at the range with it, I learn something new about its effectiveness between 100 and 200 yards and what I can do as the operator to improve upon that effectiveness. The accuracy of the weapons system is only as good as it will be when kept it top condition.  That goes for the person operating the weapons system as well...


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 12:58am
I think practice is essential to good performance in any sport. The problem for most of us at the moment is getting to the range. 
Probably won't get any competitions this year; unless the vaccination program gets speeded up here.


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 7:34am
Absolutely.  Everything must be “right” with the rifle to achieve its inherent accuracy.  

My Long Branch No. 4 Mk 1/3 I use for the matches has maintained its accuracy well for about 5000 rounds that I have put thru it.  I wished I had kept a round count log.  I am expecting that barrel throat wear will soon show itself on the target and it will need to be rebarreled.  I’m going to call Krieger and see if they will make me a No. 4 barrel.  

For me, I’ve found that dry firing every day for the week before the match is important. Particularly in the standing position.  Dry firing in the prep stage of the match (I think it’s 3 minutes of prep time we get before firing) helps you identify if you are in proper position and watch for any movement of the front sight when the striker is released. 

But I think what made the most difference for me was I spent a concentrated effort over a period of 5 years to work at practicing the three stages of the CMP GSM match exactly as they are run, except I dispensed with the 5 sighters in prone slow fire.  I used a timer to make sure I got my 10 rounds in rapid fire stage completed with 15 seconds to spare.   I tried to get to the range once a week over this period, but that was not always possible. I shot a lot of rounds thru my M1 and No. 4 over these 5 years, shot two barrels out of my M1.  I tried to spread out my shooting across several No. 4 rifles and keep loads down to moderate pressures to minimize bore wear.  

In all that shooting I’ve not detected any increase in headspace.  I keep the bolt and action body locking lugs cleaned and use a bit of grease on these surfaces. 







Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

I was one of the first round inductees into the course I mentioned when it was initiated in mid 1987 at Ft.Benning...

The closest you will find at a NM course is what is called Rattle Battle, 

still know distance,  and a team event, 
the outside guys are swing shooters, 

and all rapid fire, (timed)





Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 9:08am
The program I was in had the two man element. Never any rapid fire stages however. There was more to the program than just shooting. We had to perform various tasks along the way to the next stage. The A.C.T. and CM portion of the program while simultaneously doing C.B.I. was possibly the hardest part of the program with a 70% failure rate...


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 21 2021 at 6:13pm
depending on how we all look at "the bottom line" i think you have made great points on using the very best bits we can find to get the very best results , it also sometimes equates to cost and often that becomes a restriction depending on where in life we are and what we have available , but in the end this has been a helpful thread for those looking to improve their results , ive read it more than once just to be sire i didnt miss an important bit , 



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