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All Loaded up for the Matches

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Topic: All Loaded up for the Matches
Posted By: britrifles
Subject: All Loaded up for the Matches
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 1:23pm
Ready for the Talladega Matches this week.  They are being run in Alabama in lieu of the Western Regional Matches in Phoenix.  

250 rounds of .223 for AR 800 Aggregate and 3x600 Service Rifle
40 rounds of .30-06 for M1 Garand Match
40 rounds of .303 for No. 4 Vintage Military Match

I really need to find a way to speed up reloading, might have to go to a progressive press. 





Replies:
Posted By: devrep
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Ready for the Talladega Matches this week.  They are being run in Alabama in lieu of the Western Regional Matches in Phoenix.  

250 rounds of .223 for AR 800 Aggregate and 3x600 Service Rifle
40 rounds of .30-06 for M1 Garand Match
40 rounds of .303 for No. 4 Vintage Military Match

I really need to find a way to speed up reloading, might have to go to a progressive press. 


that's s nice couple of battle rifles right there.


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double gun


Posted By: Doco Overboard
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Ready for the Talladega Matches this week.  They are being run in Alabama in lieu of the Western Regional Matches in Phoenix.  

250 rounds of .223 for AR 800 Aggregate and 3x600 Service Rifle
40 rounds of .30-06 for M1 Garand Match
40 rounds of .303 for No. 4 Vintage Military Match

I really need to find a way to speed up reloading, might have to go to a progressive press. 




Good luck this week-shoot well hope the weather is decent.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 2:47pm
Check out the Dillon RL 550B (or "C")
to me its the perfect balance between manual control & fast automation.
Its only weak spot is its depriming/priming setup.
Because I like to clean primer pockets I don't deprime on it. I have a single stage for that.



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 3:58pm
That’s a nice set up.  I still do all reloading steps single stage.  It’s not too tedious for bolt rifles, where I neck size only, but for “gas guns” it’s a PITA.  Have to tumble brass, lube, full length size, tumble again.  Trimming is usually required more often in FL sized brass than it is for neck sizing.  

I’ve long since stoped weighing charges, so charging the case and seating bullets is fairly quick.  I never crimp rifle cartridges.  

I was out at the range on Friday.  I shot about 200 rounds.  It took me most of yesterday to prep and prime the brass and a few hours today to reload it.  Even with a progressive press, the brass FL sizing will have to be done separately as the lube must be removed from the case.  It’s become a chore.  




Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 5:14pm
how do you avoid weighing charges ? i hand dip mine and hand prime but its easy for me as i single stage every step , i dont load more than a few thousand of anything/everything these days , maybe i need to shoot more ? 

have a great time at the shoot i envy you , it sounds a real fun tile and i really like what you are taking with you to participate ,  the no4 and the garand look like real nice rifles -but what 223 are you using ? 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 5:34pm
A Square, I record the micrometer setting on my Redding powder measure for the particular charge weight of the load I’m using in my reloading data log book.  I confirm the weight of first two or three powder dumps from the measure with my RCBS digital scale.  It generally never changes, very repeatable, until I open up a new lot of powder, but I like to confirm this each time I load.  I then proceed with charging all cases direct from the measure. 

I’m loading AA2520 for my AR-15 (.223 Remington), it will meter +/- 0.0 gr direct from the measure, it is a ball powder.  H4895 for the M1 .30-06 and Varget for the No. 4 .303; these are stick powders that typically meter +/- 0.1 grains direct from the measure.  No need to weigh out each charge, much to time consuming and no benefit at all for shooting service rifle matches out to 600 yards.  

I used to load a lot of 9mm for IDPA matches, on a single stage press.  That’s where a progressive would be really beneficial.  




Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 14 2021 at 5:49pm
ok , if your getting reliably repeatable charges i see why you need not check it , ive not had that great of luck and as i said i hand dip every charge because i load so few at any given time , we all have our pet peeves , mine is a precise charge , but sounds like you have that controlled very well , i need to look at a better powder drop - the one i have is an old lyman ...never got it to work reliably , but then i only fiddled with it a couple times then frustration set in , 

what AR are you shooting - i know we normally dont discuss them here but this is the OT , im shooting three DPMS these days a rifle , a carbine and a dedicated 22lr , i also have a 69 vintage colt upper on a civi DPMS lower that is my retro , 

all the others ive built are with my kids now including my LR308 24" SS bull that i miss from time to time at moments like this - but i could get it back if i didnt prefer the M14 type M1A for shooting 308 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 3:24am
One of the tricks I learned over the years is to rotate the handle of the measure at a slow and steady movement, and push thru if a powder stick gets caught and sheared by the measure, don’t back it up or rotate the handle quickly.  This gives a very consistent powder drop weight, within +/- 0.1 grains about 90% of the time.  On a 40 grain charge, that is accurate to 0.25 % of the 40 grain charge weight.  My measure is the rotating drum type Redding measure that my Dad had.  



None of the top competitive service Rifle shooters I know will weigh charges.  We all shoot a lot and this adds significant time in the reloading process with no benefit in score.  I was not able to measure any improvement in group size between throwing charges from my measure into the case with a +/- 0.1 variance versus weighing and trickle charging to +/- 0.0 gr.  

My AR has a DPMS lower and a White Oak Armament Service Rifle upper (float tube with A2 hand guards).  Barrel is a 20 inch Bartlein 1:7 twist.  Adjustable UBR stock. 1-4x Hi-Lux XTC service rifle scope as allowed by the CMP rules.  








Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 3:59am
I know we have beat this one to death, but here is an example when I will weigh and trickle charge every case.  

I’m loading up some .308 Winchester today with 175 grain Sierra Matchkings for 1000 yard shooting from my neighbors M70 Police Sniper rifle.  I’m using IMR 4064 which is a long stick powder and does not meter well through my Redding measure, +/- 0.3 grains.  At 1000 yards, the velocity variance will show up on the target.  The rifle will be shot off the bench with a bipod support.  And, I’m only loading 50 rounds.  So, it is well worth the extra time to weigh and trickle charge each load.  

Make sense?




Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:03pm
I use the Dillon 650, with the case loader. It's excellent for the pistol reloading, as I use the powder doser on the rig. 
However it's also pretty good for the rifles. But I don't use the powder doser for the rifles. Because it's not accurate enough with some types of powder.

I was wasting too much time on prepping the cases for rifle by hand. I was cleaning the twice due to the lube when sizing. Now I de-prime, resize, then I clean in the ultrasonic bath; dry and trim and clean primer pockets. I bought the Lyman rig for cleaing the pockets and deburring the cases, which does save time when compared to doing that by hand.
 Then return to the Dillon rig for priming. I have a Lyman electronic doser, so use that and to fill the primed cases, the back to the rig for the bullet seating.
Still takes a while though!


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:15pm
Here's a full write up of my case prep for .303 and 7.62.

uploads/1572/case_prep_document_PDF_small.pdf" rel="nofollow - uploads/1572/case_prep_document_PDF_small.pdf

Best of luck with your competition Britrifles!


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:


I’ve long since stoped weighing charges, so charging the case and seating bullets is fairly quick.  


With this, I will assume that there is the probability that you could be off by as much as 3 or 4 grains plus or minus regardless of how well you have set up your powder charging station. You will also see a definitive increase or decrease in pressure just by where the bullet hits as well. There will come a time that if loading on the minimum and without checking to see if the charge weight is where it should be, the high probability of a half charge will occur resulting in a squib load and a possible ruptured barrel, if not worse. 
I have a lifelong friend that spent 28 years in the Armed Forces. He was a Gunnery Sargent/Scout/Sniper, what have you.  During one of our conversations,  I had asked how he was issued the ammunition he needed when sent out on a mission.  He told me that his team handloaded all their ammunition, and down to the exact grain so there would be no issues when it came time to squeeze the go button. Their respective weapons systems where all tuned and adjusted to their handloads as well.
 
"There is a discipline here that the range time combined with working up a round specific to your weapon need to be in balance. To do so otherwise will open up instabilities with both weapons performance and accuracy." ~Retired Gunnery Sargent Conrad E. Chavez USMC.

For me personally, I need the satisfaction of knowing that each and every single cartridge is identical to the next as far as charge weight and seating depth are concerned.  I have acquired the ability to split my time evenly between reloading and rangetime as recommended by an elite member of the Armed Forces of the United States, and in doing so, I can enjoy both without the loss of either discipline. 
My hat is off to you britrifles for having the utmost courage to forego the tedious process of weighing each charge and basically hoping for the best if you will.
A question for you. If you are throwing charges as you have stated so you have more time at the range. Would it be conducive in both time and expense, to forego reloading all together and simply buy off the shelf brand ammunition instead?




Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:04pm
Goosic, I think you meant 0.3 to 0.4 grains off?  I’ve probably weighted 1000 dispensed charges over the years from my powder measure and I have a good understanding on how accurate it is.  Ball powders will dispense to +/- 0.0 grains, drops charges within the measuring limits of my RCBS electronic scale.  Absolutely nothing gained by weighing every charge.  

As my previous post said, Varget and H4895 will dispense to +/-0.1 grains.  I will weigh the first few charges each time I load to confirm I have set the measure correctly, and will also weigh again the last few to be sure the measure setting did not move.  

No chance of “under” or “over” charges with these powders. No more so than the chance of an erroneous reading on your powder scale.  I’ve probably loaded 20,000 rounds this way, and it will never result in a squib or burst barrel. 

IMR 4064 however is not that consistent in my measure.   +/- 0.3 grains.  Not enough to be concerned with, but not sufficient for 1000 yard accuracy work either, so I do weigh and trickle charge for these loads for reasons of maximizing accuracy. 

Most military cartridges and probably all commercial cartridges are machine loaded. Every charge is not weighed.  

Reloading does two things for me.  It makes shooting affordable and it allows me to produce match grade ammunition for my purposes.  I don’t “hope”, I collect data and evidence that the process I use is highly repeatable and extremely accurate.  



Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:18pm
I did not mention this step in the process:  I visually check the level of powder in all the cases to confirm one was not missed.  Particularly important for pistol ammunition that could have erroneously had a double charge.  It’s never happened to me, but the consequence of a double charge in pistol ammunition is serious, potentially catastrophic, so this check is advisable.  A double charge in a rifle case is obvious. 






Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:26pm
Its going to depend on the combination of powder grain shape & powder meter design & operation.
But I can usually get +/- 1/10 gr for a 2/10 gr max variation if I'm being conscientious. & thats with Dillon's sliding charge bar.
With my normal charge weights thats just not worth the minor variation. & yes, I have actually tested it.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:37pm
My experience is similar Sham.  It will depend on the quality of your measure.  Mine is a “benchrest” version made in the early 1960s and is very repeatable.  A technique is required to minimize variability. 

Here is something relevant out of the Sierra Reloading Manual, 5th Edition discussing throwing charges from the measure directly into the case, this is not as unusual as you may think: 

Proof of this can be found in the fact that very few competitive benchrest shooters bother weighing their charges.  The vast majority throw the charge directly into the case right from the measure.  If you see someone at a benchrest match carefully weighing each and every charge, chances are that he (or she) is a novice, and just hasn’t conceded to the wisdom of more experienced shooters. 






Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 1:44pm
I have, admittedly modified my Dillon meter a little.
The "funnel part" at the bottom is polished & I've added a big knob for the powder setting nut instead of Dillon's hex bolt.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 2:26pm
Conceding to the wisdom of a more experienced shooter that only knows of one way to shoot? 
If a bench rest shooter does not bother to weigh their respective charges, why then, even bother with the reloading aspect? It would seem most reasonable to go to Bullets Are Us, point at a box and say gimme four of those, then head to the range, lock that $10,000 plus racegun in that metal contraption, dial in the X&Y values, and then touch the trigger, would it not?
A BR shooter lacks the discipline to sit,stand,kneel, or lay down in any position and just shoot the weapon. A bench rest rifle is no different than that of a testing rig. It is locked into position, the shooter makes his adjustments accordingly and then never actually holds onto the rifle other than to pull the trigger.  A custom handload would not matter either way with any reliable off the shelf brand sufficiently working in place of that handload. So yes, I can definitely see where it would be a waste of time if I were a novice bench rest shooter.  I am not a bench rest shooter and will never concede to being one. I like knowing how the rifle responds by way of touch and felt recoil. I like knowing that I can shoot my rifle from any given position without the necessity of a metal cage holding the rifle instead of actual arms and hands being used. We can definitely all agree to disagree as to how one chooses to reload as opposed to the other though.
I do wish you the best of luck britrifles in your upcoming matches.
And please share with us your results when you have returned...



Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 2:38pm
Benchrest is the ultimate in precision shooting.  Accuracy is measured in thousands of an inch.  And they don’t even weigh charges, which to me was rather surprising.  I had not seen that paragraph in the Sierra manual before, although I’ve watched some benchrest shooters load up their cases right there on the bench from their clamp on powder measures, without a scale, and proceed to make a one hole group at 600 yards. 

But I’ve learned over the years that building ones confidence is a critical element to accurate shooting.  I concede that measuring out every charge will be necessary for some shooters to build and maintain that confidence.  I’m not trying to convince anyone NOT to do that, but just communicate my own experience and how I arrived at that conclusion that for me, it has become unnecessary.  The choice is our own to make. 






Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 3:40pm
 
I have the same results with my Redding powder measure, and my Forster powder measure, 

ball powders, right on the money, each and everytime,  and sticks (4895/4064) will have some crunch and some small variations,  

when I was shooting Garand matches, I did trickle some, then bought the 1st gen electronic dispenser when it came out,  
it does a great job but is slowwwwwwwwwwww.  and was likely not needed, but it made me a bit more confident that the ammo was not an issue,  





I use a Dillon for play ammo  and some pistol ammo, 

the Service Rifle and Garand ammo go thru a Co-Ax,  (best press out there IMHO)




Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 3:46pm
re the benchrest guys, 

I would imagine those powder measures are extremely accurate in what they throw, and have been measured, tuned, etc etc  

IIRC the Harrell's Measures were the go to for the precision guys, 

if you have faith in your measure, it will save you as step if  you load on the range, 




Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 4:15pm
Harrells makes a very good measure.  I thought about getting one, but my Redding Benchrest measure does so well and is very repeatable.  

I loaded up 50 rounds of .308 today, I weighed every charge.  Powder is IMR 4064, which is a fairly long stick and does not meter very consistent in my measure.   The ammo is for the 1000 yard line in a sniper rifle, so I trickle charged to bring each charge up to 42.0 gr as measured on my RCBS electronic scale.  The lowest weight thrown from the measure was 41.7 and highest was 42.1 grains (i.e +/- 0.2 gr).  I’ve occasionally seen as much as +/- 0.3 grains with IMR 4064.  This variation would have been fine for M1 match shooting at least to 200 yards without any loss in measurable accuracy.   Some claim that constant volume is as important as constant weight.  








Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 15 2021 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Benchrest is the ultimate in precision shooting.  Accuracy is measured in thousands of an inch.  And they don’t even weigh charges, which to me was rather surprising.  I had not seen that paragraph in the Sierra manual before, although I’ve watched some benchrest shooters load up their cases right there on the bench from their clamp on powder measures, without a scale, and proceed to make a one hole group at 600 yards. 
 
Picture was taken directly from the internet: 

The Ultimate in Precision Shooting?  Where the owner of the big chunk of metal that consists of a huge barrel attached to an even bigger receiver gets credit for turning some dials on the metal platform the barrel and reciever are mated to until the crosshairs are lined up and he or she pulls the trigger without even actually holding the big metal contraption? 
The only human factor involved here is that the contraption needs to be manipulated in a way to get it to put a bullet down range by having all of its dials turned until the X&Y values are entered and then the human pulls the bang button. I have witnessed a bench rest contraption that is computer controlled and all the variables are entered on a laptop and then the,"Shooter," presses the enter key. Weighing a specific charge would be redundant at this point. It wouldn't matter what was spat out from that thing. It would still hit its intended target. Give the human in the picture my fake L8A5T or my M700P and have him attempt the same precision shooting he is accustomed to with that shooting rig and it would look like a toddler throwing a wiffleball. Yes, I use a tripod to assist with keeping the forend steady. I am physically handicapped. I cannot stand for long periods, nor can I sit for long durations and need a sandbag, block of wood, to steady the front of my rifle. Getting a target fix and holding it while actually shouldering the rifle and squeezing the trigger is all me and absolutely no different than how I was trained to fire a weapon using anything at your disposal for support. That, and working up a specific load to compliment the rifle it is tailored to, to assist in just that much more of a smaller group based from actually holding and shooting the rifle from any position other than it being clamped down into a metal holding device.  The contraption pictured is anything but a weapon. It cannot be transported without difficulty, it is not capable of multiple on the fly course corrections and it is not user friendly.  Ammunition used,regardless of homegrown or store bought does not play into the controlled setting prior to, during, or after the firing sequenc.   As stated earlier, as long as the contraption is pointed in the right direction, and all the dials are turne d correctly, it will ingest anything it is designed for and get it on target. To insinuate that one must be a novice by not following BR shooting protocol is a fairly obtuse way of thinking and only allows for one train of thought, therefore making an assumption that all other forms of shooting and reloading disciplines are itself archaic and grossly outdated...



Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 3:23am
Yes, that’s why I don’t have an interest in Benchrest shooting.  It’s a test of the rifle and ammo and not the skill of the shooter. Although Benchrest shooter might disagree with this, I don’t know.  Benchrest is the ultimate arbitrator of how consistent the ammo is, for the rifle is essentially a rigid structure and it sits on rest which prevents any movement imparted my the shooter. 

If weighing charges was necessary to obtain accuracy, it would be here in Benchrest shooting.  They must be using very high quality measures that give them the consistency they need.  Although I have personally seen benchrest shooters charge cases direct from the measure, I thought that was odd at the time, because I was weighing and trickle charging all my rifle loads for my No. 4. That was 20 years ago.

I have a friend that shoots in F-Class, which is shot in prone position with a front tripod rest and rear sandbag rest. Rifles have heavy barrels and high power scopes.  I was talking to him the other day and he realized that Service Rifle shooting is much more a test of shooting skill than F-Class and has the added dimensions of shooting in three positions:  standing, sitting and prone.  Then there are rapid fire and slow fire stages.  It is meant to be representative of the infantry rifleman’s methods.  

The toughest thing about shooting long range is learning to compensate for shifting winds.  I’ve yet to learn this skill.  I was shooting the AR at 600 yards last Friday, and had three minutes of right windage dialed in to account for the 4 to 5 mph cross wind right to left across the range.  I hadn’t noticed the wind shift after the third shot and a 3:00 shot in the 7 ring was the result.  So, I removed the 3 minute Right windage on the scope and a 9:00 shot in the 7 ring was the result!  That 4 mph breeze had picked up again and I could not detect it by watching the flags.  I dialed the 3 minutes Right windage back in and a 3:00 shot in the 8 ring was the result.  I had just lost 8 points because I did not know how to read a 4 mph shifting breeze.  Out came my spotting scope to watch the mirage at 300 yards (midway down the range).  I watched until I saw the same conditions on each shot and four consecutive shots in the X ring resulted.  

None of this had anything to do with my rifle or my loads, or my ability to hold the rifle and align the sights and smoothly pull the trigger.  It was my inability to read the wind and make corrections.  This is just one of the challenges we face in mid range and long range shooting. I can’t imagine how those snipers take mile and a half shots, but that’s one of the jobs of the spotter, making windage allowances and watch where the bullet impacts.  







Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 5:47am
Goosic,  

your comments are ones I have heard before, and just a thought, 

the Benchrest guys probably have similar comments about Service Rifle shooters, or Smallbore, or Bullseye,, 


and reminds me of the old joke, 

3 shooters are walking down the line at Camp Perry, 

a Bullseye shooter
a Smallbore shooter 
and a Service Rifle shooter, 

they are chatting about various things and in  come up on a mud hole ,  
the Bullseye shooter steps over and continues  to  his station 
the Smallbore shooter gets mad, and storms off to the R/O to complain about conditions of the match, 
and the SR shooter gets down and into position,,,


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 6:23am
I was reading some information the other day on a F-Class forum, and had to laugh, they call the Service Rifle shooters “Sling Shooters”, not heard that one before, but perhaps appropriate.  


Posted By: SGonger
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 6:33am
Originally posted by lyman1903 lyman1903 wrote:

Goosic,  

your comments are ones I have heard before, and just a thought, 

the Benchrest guys probably have similar comments about Service Rifle shooters, or Smallbore, or Bullseye,, 


and reminds me of the old joke, 

3 shooters are walking down the line at Camp Perry, 

a Bullseye shooter
a Smallbore shooter 
and a Service Rifle shooter, 

they are chatting about various things and in  come up on a mud hole ,  
the Bullseye shooter steps over and continues  to  his station 
the Smallbore shooter gets mad, and storms off to the R/O to complain about conditions of the match, 
and the SR shooter gets down and into position,,,
Could add the long range lead thrower mobile equine (coyote & feral critter) shootem’up into that mix too......yes!?  TongueWink


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Anyone seen the Tardis Box anywhere? 🤨


Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:30am
Originally posted by SGonger SGonger wrote:

Originally posted by lyman1903 lyman1903 wrote:

Goosic,  

your comments are ones I have heard before, and just a thought, 

the Benchrest guys probably have similar comments about Service Rifle shooters, or Smallbore, or Bullseye,, 


and reminds me of the old joke, 

3 shooters are walking down the line at Camp Perry, 

a Bullseye shooter
a Smallbore shooter 
and a Service Rifle shooter, 

they are chatting about various things and in  come up on a mud hole ,  
the Bullseye shooter steps over and continues  to  his station 
the Smallbore shooter gets mad, and storms off to the R/O to complain about conditions of the match, 
and the SR shooter gets down and into position,,,
Could add the long range lead thrower mobile equine (coyote & feral critter) shooter into that mix too......yes!?  TongueWink


or maybe a reenactor?  Light Horse type?Tongue


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:36am
Benchrest is a test of the equipment & load only.
They actually try to remove the shooter from the equation!
There are "sled guns" which are more like field artillery than any recognizable rifle as we use the term.
they don't even pull the trigger, but use a remote release of some kind!
The thing with bench-rest is that they'll fire 45 rounds, but only the ten on the "for Score" target count, the other 35 are all sighters.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads24/rail+guns1452135998.jpg


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:44am
another, more extreme version.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/rail-gun.jpg


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 8:10am
We have a 1000 yard range here and that is where I watched a two man operation punching in computer codes into a laptop and watching all the gizmos whirring away until the contraption that houses the barrel and breaching mechanism stopped. The sighting in was done via two camera links setup between the contraption and the target and one camera on a drone. The one computer tech tapped the Enter button on the laptop, the contraption made a loud crack sound and a couple of seconds later after reading the telemetry off of the laptop, the two man operation high five each other and then started the process over again. That is not shooting when the actual shooter is removed from the equation.
What britrifles is doing in service rifle competition and what F-Class guys are doing is what shooting is all about. When you become one with the rifle, and if that includes trying to tweak that little fraction of accuracy out of that rifle by making that miniscule powder charge weight adjustment then so be it. 
The BR dudes do not have the handicap of actually having to hold an actual rifle and get into the various positions prior to shooting...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 9:59am
No doubt, Benchrest has changed a lot since it’s early days when it was just a scoped rifle shot off a bench with a rest...

One of my Dad’s books I have is “The Ultimate in Rifle Precision” by the late Colonel Townsend Whelen.  It chronicles the beginnings of this type of shooting.  It was traced back to 1944 where a group of shooters in the Puget Sound area got together to shoot their hunting rifles off a bench with support under the rifle.  That was the first know Match when a rest was permitted.  It was intended to find out just how accurate rifles and ammunition are....

Not for me.




Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 11:58am
At my local club there are quite a few 50 metre Benchrest shooter's, using .22 benchrest rifles. They seem to be taking over! As many of them are in the club commitee. 
They spend so much time putting up windmills and wind vanes, setting up the rigs and buying a job lot of 5000 rounds to get the same batch! I just don't get it. 
But sometimes we can have some fun!
Last year they had a competition for benchrest and had a class for leisure rfiles. So a rifle weight limit, max X24 scope and either a bipod or front sandbag for a rest. 
So I entered with the No8 Enfield with the Schmitt Bender x6 scope, just for a laugh. I got third on the day, behind two regular's using modern CZ heavy barrel rifles and big scopes (from another club).
But I was top score of our 11 club members who entered.
Before the competition, some of them were surprised that I had turned up with a 70 year old rifle and a scope I fitted 2 weeks before. They didn't have much to say afterwards! I was happy!

But one thing did bug me, we shot three cards, but they only scored the first two. But my last card was my best and would have put me second if we'd scored all three!


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 1:03pm
Its not really about shooting, thats the point.
Its more about the mechanics & engineering.

They will literally argue about what kind of giant plastic flower whirligig main spindle bearing, to use as a wind indicator every 10 yards to the target.
Are pneumatic releases, solenoid releases, or cable releases the best for trigger tripping.



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 1:17pm
Shooting rifles off the bench with support (sandbag or tripod rest) has a similar purpose.  To minimize or eliminate the shooter from the accuracy equation.  

It’s easy to see how this endeavor lead to heavier barrels and more powerful scopes.  Over the years, it has resulted in these monstrosities that are called “Benchrest” rifles.  They do have a barrel, receiver and a bolt.  But that’s the extent of it.  In a few years, they will need a fork lift to bring these rifles to the bench.

Service Rifle shooters pretty much ignore the wind effects out to 200 yards. Many of our vintage military rifles don’t even have a means to adjust the rear sight for windage...




Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 16 2021 at 7:01pm
i rather like your AR and i realize this is not the forum for it but if you wish to tell us more of it on the CT im interested , ive not shot any of these matches but might one day if opportunity presents itself , im still getting used to retirement these days , 


Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 17 2021 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

We have a 1000 yard range here and that is where I watched a two man operation punching in computer codes into a laptop and watching all the gizmos whirring away until the contraption that houses the barrel and breaching mechanism stopped. The sighting in was done via two camera links setup between the contraption and the target and one camera on a drone. The one computer tech tapped the Enter button on the laptop, the contraption made a loud crack sound and a couple of seconds later after reading the telemetry off of the laptop, the two man operation high five each other and then started the process over again. That is not shooting when the actual shooter is removed from the equation.
What britrifles is doing in service rifle competition and what F-Class guys are doing is what shooting is all about. When you become one with the rifle, and if that includes trying to tweak that little fraction of accuracy out of that rifle by making that miniscule powder charge weight adjustment then so be it. 
The BR dudes do not have the handicap of actually having to hold an actual rifle and get into the various positions prior to shooting...


you witnessed Skynet's great great grandpa,,,,,Clown


Posted By: lyman1903
Date Posted: March 17 2021 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

i rather like your AR and i realize this is not the forum for it but if you wish to tell us more of it on the CT im interested , ive not shot any of these matches but might one day if opportunity presents itself , im still getting used to retirement these days , 

be careful, Service Rifle can be addicting, 


I shoot it regularly for about 10 yrs until a job change took away my Sat's off, 



I bought an estate a few years ago that had some custom bench rest and varmint guns in it, 

they sold well, but the questions about them (round count, headspace,  who made it,  round count, previous history , any matches won etcetcetc,) were relentless, 

all sold relatively quickly,   

we also picked up another a few weeks ago,  
monstrosity built on a M1917 action,  big heavy barrel, 
really large laminate stock with built in rails on the bottom to ride the bags or bench, 
may take forever to sell, but not worried, the Unertl that was one it is worth way more than we paid for the complete set,,





Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: March 17 2021 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by lyman1903 lyman1903 wrote:

Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

We have a 1000 yard range here and that is where I watched a two man operation punching in computer codes into a laptop and watching all the gizmos whirring away until the contraption that houses the barrel and breaching mechanism stopped. The sighting in was done via two camera links setup between the contraption and the target and one camera on a drone. The one computer tech tapped the Enter button on the laptop, the contraption made a loud crack sound and a couple of seconds later after reading the telemetry off of the laptop, the two man operation high five each other and then started the process over again. That is not shooting when the actual shooter is removed from the equation.
What britrifles is doing in service rifle competition and what F-Class guys are doing is what shooting is all about. When you become one with the rifle, and if that includes trying to tweak that little fraction of accuracy out of that rifle by making that miniscule powder charge weight adjustment then so be it. 
The BR dudes do not have the handicap of actually having to hold an actual rifle and get into the various positions prior to shooting...


you witnessed Skynet's great great grandpa,,,,,Clown
Skynet became self aware 24 years ago at 2:14 am Eastern Standard time on August 29th 1997...Hug...



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