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History on the Dutch Lee Enfield Rifles

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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11488
Printed Date: November 27 2021 at 6:50pm
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Topic: History on the Dutch Lee Enfield Rifles
Posted By: jhonelver
Subject: History on the Dutch Lee Enfield Rifles
Date Posted: June 02 2021 at 8:45am
Some of you seemed to like my post about the Dutch No.4 Sniper rifle.
Which i am still researching and will keep you guys updated on that research in that topic.

Here i wanted to give you guys more information on the Dutch Lee Enfield rifles, the weird things we did to them. and just general history on how we got them. If you guys want to know more please let me know and i will keep posting information in this topic. I have information, documents and objects that were made or used in the Netherlands about/for the Lee Enfield. (like inspection tools/ spare parts/ Dutch scopes etc.)

Here is just the beginning of the Dutch and their Lee enfield rifle. if you want more let me know.
------------------


The use of Lee Enfield rifles by Dutch forces start in WW2. after the germans invaded the Netherlands on 10 may 1940, (what we call the may days of 1940) and the dutch surrender on 15 may 1940.

But this was not the end. The dutch army had one fighting force in Europe and one in the pacific (Dutch Indies which i won't talk about). after the occupation of the Netherlands the Dutch merchant marine, Navy, Airforce and army made their way to England.

This is where this story begins.

The Dutch army now in England formed different groups and squadrons that joined the fight alongside the British. Also the Famous "Princess Irene Brigade" who landed 6 august 1944 in Normandy and fought in operation Market Garden.

These soldiers needed weapons, which were supplied by the British. The Dutch army in exile (london) started printing instruction manual in Dutch for these soldiers. (picture)


The rifle was called "Rifle 7,7mm Lee Enfield model of 1942". 

this is because the Dutch already had a Carbine called "Karabijn No.4" this was a carbine version of the Dutch mannlicher M95 bolt action rifle in 6.5x53mmR. some of these carbines were later changed to 303 British because 6.5mm was harder to get then 303 British.

And why 1942 you might ask. well that is when it got introduced (it seems like). they had to put a number on it. (weird Dutch ways i think).

But after WW2 the Dutch Needed to be rearmed. There were multiple programmes and in the end the Dutch received weapons from the UK, Canada, US and left over German rifles.

The dutch really had everything, from MG43, No.4, M1 Garand, 30m1 carbine, Mauser K98k, Bren, Sten, BAR, Browning M2 etc. etc.

But it didn't take long before the Dutch started manufacturing things themselves again. The Dutch started with spare parts. so the spare parts for the Lee Enfield were produced in the Netherlands.

This all happened at the factory Artillerie Inrichtingen. i hope all of you guys heard of this factory because with a little pride i can say that the predecessor of the M16/M4 rifles came from this factory. The AR-10. (start production; 4 july 1957, 5 year license)



Artillerie Inrichtingen had a couple of different factories in Netherlands (above is Zaandam). with all different functions. from ammunition and rifles to scopes and artillery were build, maintained and tested here. 

Here are some known spare parts:

they are marked as their logo:


Bolt Heads (nr3)  AI marked their parts and rifles with the letter I in the Letter A as seen below.



Stock set.



All these parts have the AI mark. which is really nice, because these are really rare. 









    












Replies:
Posted By: Olddust
Date Posted: June 02 2021 at 9:59am
very interesting ! 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: June 02 2021 at 10:14am
Interesting!
This may be new to you but the Ditch made AR 10's fetch a hefty premium price here in the U.S. they're known as the Indonesian AR-10.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 02 2021 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Interesting!
This may be new to you but the Ditch made AR 10's fetch a hefty premium price here in the U.S. they're known as the Indonesian AR-10.

I know AR10 rifle are really expensive. especially here in the Netherlands. if it is stamped AI like picture below. depending on the condition and model they can be between 1600,- en 3500,- euro's. But if they are special models well, the sky is the limit.

Just like that strange M1 rifle the Dutch made. https://www.forgottenweapons.com/dutch-m1-with-ar-10-magazines/   they managed to get AR10 magazine in an M1 garand and change the caliber to 7.62 nato. i am astonished what they managed to do back then.



Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 02 2021 at 12:38pm
Thank you for posting!
 The Dutch Lee Enfield history is interesting and was totally unknown to me.
It's great to learn something new!


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 02 2021 at 7:09pm
this is very enlightening , learned a lot i did not know 


Posted By: Twodogs
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 12:18am
Very interesting, a whole aspect of Enfield history I never knew existed, every day is a school day/ Keep it coming.
Thank you


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 2:59am
Thank you guys for your response.

I will write a little more later today.
About dutch AI 303 cartridge and testing.
And a really really special (weird) dutch lee enfield no.4 Mk.I sight.


And i have good and bad news.
I am invited by the Dutch National Military Museum to studie their enfield rifles and documentations about the lee enfield.
But the Dutch No.4 Mk.I K sniper rifle cannot be studied because it is in the display collection and will be there for a lobg time. They wont take it from display for studying. So we will have to wait. But i can see the rifle. But not hold itWink


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 4:41am
I’m looking forward to the results of your research.  It seems to be an untold story.  

I knew many Canadian Army veterans who fought all thru Holland during the War.  The Reserve regiment I belonged to in Canada fought in Holland.  Numerous Dutch families in our area moved to Canada after the war.  If you visit Ottawa in the spring you will see thousands of Tulips in bloom; a gift from the Dutch for Canada’s service to freeing them from the Germans.  

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Dutch ended up with a lot of Long Branch made No. 4 rifles.  





Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 8:49am
Here is the second part of this story.

First i give you a Dutch AI replacement sight. you can see the AI logo really well.





Besides replacement parts, the AI factory also made ammunition.
Below are 303 british rounds (BALL , VII) from 1960. I use this ammo when i go to the range.



And here an army crate with 1440 .303 british rounds. these crates came from AI and were send to the Dutch army. (this crate is from 1961 and sold yesterday for 800,- euros still sealed with 1440 rounds still in it)



These 303 cartridges are plenty here in the Netherlands, they were manufactured for the Dutch army. and some were sold to other countries that wanted to use them.
But besides just making some ammunition, AI did a lot of testing and experimenting with ammunition.
They had some special rifles for that purpose.

Like this K98k action with thick barrel for safe firing test ammunition.
these rifles were in different calibers like 5.56, 30-06, .303, 8x57,    etc. etc. 

most of these rifles were with an Mauser K98k action. But of the 303 they used an Enfield.



This Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.I is in my personal collection.
This is the Ammunition test rifle used by AI. (it has multiple AI stamped parts).



These rifles were put on a specially made stand so they could fire these rifles from a safe distance.
i have seen multiple of these rifles but only 1 Enfield. 
one mauser even had a magnetic lock on the striker to keep it in place. then the magnet was attached to a computer so they could fire the rifle from a safe distance with unlocking the magnet.

these rifles had different purposes like: measuring bullet velocity, pressure, temperature etc.

This rifle started its life as an Normal No.4 Mk.I (1942 maltby)


The barrel was probably done in Belgium, by the looks of these Belgium test and acceptance stamps.


Here is an AI bolt head number 2 (i have 2 Number 3 boltheads of AI asswell)


Here an AI cocking piece. it sounds logical because those are the parts that wear when test firing this rifle.




That is enough for ammunition and testing ammunition.

But now something special.
Some dutch person thought it would be a splendid idea to get an open sight in a No.4 Mk.I rifle.
yes, sights like on the No.1 Mk.III. but then a little different. they did it the Dutch way.
This photo was send to me by the Dutch National Military Museum.

I present to you guys.
A Dutch No.4 Mk.I with a sight that should have never been on this rifle. This sight is from a Dutch Mannlicher M95 rifle. (and yes the original sight is still on it) Wacko



I will look into this rifle asswell. because it looks awesome. (not really).




I hope you guys liked this.
I will make more updates. Next is the training manual, inspection tools, and rifle grenade. (all Dutch and in my collection).










Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 10:38am
Could you do me a huge favor? I would love to see pictures of the all markings on that Maltby receiver.


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Bear43 Bear43 wrote:

Could you do me a huge favor? I would love to see pictures of the all markings on that Maltby receiver.

Yes, i will, but what do you need it for?
I will take the pictures later today or tomorrow.



Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:06am
Originally posted by jhonelver jhonelver wrote:

Originally posted by Bear43 Bear43 wrote:

Could you do me a huge favor? I would love to see pictures of the all markings on that Maltby receiver.

Yes, i will, but what do you need it for?
I will take the pictures later today or tomorrow.

Bear43 is documenting all the tiny circles with numbers inside that are stamped on Maltby recievers. These stamps are specific to the Maltby rifle...


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:18am
These stamps you mean?

here are 4 photos from different angles.














Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:24am
Yes. They are specific to the Maltby.  Bear43 in writing a book about Maltby rifles and any and all information including photos of those stamps will help...


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 11:58am
Yes, those are Maltby inspection stamps. There are also a series of letters and/or numbers on the bottom of the wrist, covered by the trigger guard. Those markings are also unique to Maltby.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 03 2021 at 8:12pm
please give him anything you can , his book will be of immense value to collectors down the road as not much has been published on the malby rifles at this point and he has been working very hard to get a definitive collection of information put together , he has put a lot into it we need the data on record to perpetuate the collecting community into the future , 


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 05 2021 at 7:44am
Here is some more information on Dutch Lee Enfield.


The Dutch army also needed some inspection tools for inspecting the Lee Enfield rifles.
I do not know if these tools were made locally, but they are inscribed in Dutch and still have the dutch calibration sight on them.

I own 2 sets (different) all with inspection toosl for the Lee Enfield rifles.
there is only a slight catch. some tools were specially made for the Bren gun, and some for the Lee Enfield.






Tools like the protrusion gauge are different. (from top to Bottom: 1 Bren, 2 LM (light machinegun), 3 rifle No.1 and rifle no.4)

all are slightly different.



Also pressent in these inspection chests are.
- Headspace gauges
- chamber mirror
- barrel/bore gauges from .301 to .310

a no.4 rifle was rejected when a gauge of .306+ fitted in the barrel.

it is really nice to have these tools when buying any Lee enfield rifle.

Also some specially Dutch made tools are present in my collection.
Below are chamber gauges. (3 of them still in packaging).

i haven't checked them out yet. bought them yesterday.




The Dutch also used rifle grenades for the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.I.
Here are the 1953 instruction manual for the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.I

From left to right; shooting training, firearms knowledge, and rifle grenade ATB4 and ATB5.



The Dutch used their own production of the ENERGA anti tank rifle grenade.
The Dutch used this type of rifle grenade on their Lee Enfield rifles, M1 Garand rifles and later on the FN FAL.

I could not find a picture of this on the Lee Enfield but here is one with a M1 Garand.


The Dutch Produced 3 types of Energa rifle grenades.
ATB nr4 (live grenade)
ATB nr5 (training grenade inert)
ATB nr28 (training grenade with white chalk to mark where they hit)

I don't have any Dutch Energa rifle grenades in my collection yet.

Below is the attachment for the Lee Enfield to fire the rifle grenades. (this is from my collection).


And here is it on my LB No.4 Mk.I* 1950



I hope you all likes this so far.

I set a goal for myself to collect as much information on Dutch used Lee Enfields, their markings, Dutch made spare parts and so on.
When i do have enough information i will try to write a book or something about it.

will keep you guys updated on the progress.











Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: June 05 2021 at 11:03am
Necessity is the Mother of Invention:
I do not own any original military gauge sets for the Lee-Enfield rifles. Bore gauges, pin protrusion gauges, and headspacing gauges such as your collection is not obtainable here in the states unless you sink a small fortune into the purchase after finding a set. I have a mini milling machine as well as a mini lathe and as such, have resorted to making my own gauges based on my own images of what they should look like without knowing what they actually look like. Amazingly, what I have made, look exactly like the ones in your photos. 
Nice looking kit by the way...


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: June 05 2021 at 11:12am
That F/P protrusion gauge marked L M is for a Lee Metford & is different again.
Lee Efnielfield F/P protrusion was 0.040"~0.050"


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 05 2021 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

That F/P protrusion gauge marked L M is for a Lee Metford & is different again.
Lee Efnielfield F/P protrusion was 0.040"~0.050"

The Dutch never used the Lee Methford. but had other rifle like machine guns and even Dutch rifle converted to 303.

the 0.045 - 0.040 is Bren. it states on the F/P protrusion gauge.
(Mitr. Bren. Kal .303 inch) that is machinegun Bren caliber 303

The lowest is for Lee Enfield rifles No.4 and No.1
that one is in mm and not in inch.
1.27mm is 0.050 inch
1.02mm is 0.040 inch

so is a bit different.

But i dont know everything.

the LM might be for Lee Metford. can you check for me what the protrusion would be?
it says
1.14mm is 0.045 inch
1.02mm is 0.040 inch

So they are all different.


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 05 2021 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Necessity is the Mother of Invention:
I do not own any original military gauge sets for the Lee-Enfield rifles. Bore gauges, pin protrusion gauges, and headspacing gauges such as your collection is not obtainable here in the states unless you sink a small fortune into the purchase after finding a set. I have a mini milling machine as well as a mini lathe and as such, have resorted to making my own gauges based on my own images of what they should look like without knowing what they actually look like. Amazingly, what I have made, look exactly like the ones in your photos. 
Nice looking kit by the way...


I had way more gauges.

Even test bolts for M1 garand.
had a full Dutch kit.
with the following sets of gauges.

Bren (as seen)
Lee Enfield  (as seen)
M1 Garand
FN FAL
Breda machinegun
30m1 carbine.

I only kept the first two. the others i sold again.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: June 05 2021 at 1:55pm
OK, its just the different measurement systems then. (Inch & metric.)
I have no idea why it would be marked "L M" though?
The bottom gauge (1.27~1.02) might translate to "year of ## Rifle No 1 & 4" perhaps? but then whats the middle one for?



-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 08 2021 at 9:58am
I was thinking about the spare parts you showed us with the AI stamp for the Dutch Armoury that made them; and I was thinking that one day we may see some "numpty" trying sell sell them on E-bay as made by "Accuracy International"! 
That would be hilarious LOL


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: June 08 2021 at 11:32am


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: June 08 2021 at 6:55pm
wow , what a great bunch of info that does not show up in a lot of the reference material we collectors all rely on , hope one day it gets included in a future installment 


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 23 2021 at 8:12am
I just came home from the Dutch National Military Museum.

And i have seen some great things.
I can't share the document and drawings with you guys yet.

What i discovered is a letter from the Dutch military to a Cans factory.
The dutch military had asked multiple Dutch factory from all trades to manufacture equipment for them.
in this letter the Dutch military specify the specific metals and part the cans factory need to manufacture Lee Enfield No.4 magazines. it even included the drawings for every little part they need in the magazine.

It evens says in the bottom that it is an altered magazine that would fit both No.1 Mk.III and No.4 rifles. and also specifies an area where the manufacturer could place their mark/stamp.

This gives even more dept and history to Dutch manufactured Lee Enfield parts.

i will need to return a couple more times to the museum.

next time i will be looking at some technical drawings of all the Lee Enfield tools. The Dutch military had companies manufacture tools for inspection and for the armourers. the museum has the drawings of these tools.

i cannot tell you guys how happy i am finding these documents in the museum.




Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: June 23 2021 at 12:11pm
You are lucky to have access to the museums archives. Great that you can share the information with us. 
So did they make the magazines? or was it just a proposal that did not get completed?
This is interesting info!


-------------
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: June 23 2021 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Zed Zed wrote:

You are lucky to have access to the museums archives. Great that you can share the information with us. 
So did they make the magazines? or was it just a proposal that did not get completed?
This is interesting info!

I have no idea yet, i still need to do more research. will keep you guys updated. but the museum is only open in the workdays, and i would need to take a day of work to go there. so it will take a while before i can go there again.




Posted By: Grizzly ‘76
Date Posted: September 25 2021 at 5:33pm
he!!o All, brand new to the forum . 
I just purchased an Enfield No.4 MK1 . I gave it a thorough cleaning and photographed most of the stamps / proof marks . I discovered this site the other day when trying to figure out info on this rifle . I became a member after reading about Bear 43 writing a book on Maltby Rifles . So far I have found out that I have a M. 1944 numbers matching barrel, bolt, & receiver, made at ROF  Maltby (except the magazine has no serial #). I would like to share pictures if allowed . It has import marks ENGLAND on the left wrist , and a very small CE 1967 stamped onto the fore stock metal,  just behind the front barrel band on the bottom side . I have had the action out of all three front wood stocks . I did not remove the butt stock. I have a few questions about this rifle . It wears serial number BP 148xx. Forgive me if I’m posting on the wrong location , or resurrecting a zombie . 


Posted By: jhonelver
Date Posted: October 03 2021 at 9:14am
Originally posted by Grizzly  ‘76 Grizzly ‘76 wrote:

he!!o All, brand new to the forum . 
I just purchased an Enfield No.4 MK1 . I gave it a thorough cleaning and photographed most of the stamps / proof marks . I discovered this site the other day when trying to figure out info on this rifle . I became a member after reading about Bear 43 writing a book on Maltby Rifles . So far I have found out that I have a M. 1944 numbers matching barrel, bolt, & receiver, made at ROF  Maltby (except the magazine has no serial #). I would like to share pictures if allowed . It has import marks ENGLAND on the left wrist , and a very small CE 1967 stamped onto the fore stock metal,  just behind the front barrel band on the bottom side . I have had the action out of all three front wood stocks . I did not remove the butt stock. I have a few questions about this rifle . It wears serial number BP 148xx. Forgive me if I’m posting on the wrong location , or resurrecting a zombie . 

he!!o Grizzly,

welcome to the forum,
you could start a new topic on your rifle and ask those questions with some pictures to help us see the rifle. we all would love to help you where we can.




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