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No1 Mk3 Sniper

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11626
Printed Date: October 20 2021 at 1:09pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: No1 Mk3 Sniper
Posted By: Honkytonk
Subject: No1 Mk3 Sniper
Date Posted: September 01 2021 at 6:42am
Hey all. I felt I needed a treat so I put out a feeler to my Lee Enfield guy in Regina, Sask. asking him if he had anything interesting for sale. He said he had a No1 Mk3 Sniper coming in in a few weeks. No other details (which I'll look into) other than its in his British words (is rare as hens teeth!). $2595. CDN. I have no idea if this is a reasonable price if the rifle is in vg condition. I suspect if it has one of those weird offset scopes that would add to the value. Would you expect it to be scoped? Thoughts?



Replies:
Posted By: MJ11
Date Posted: September 01 2021 at 7:04am
Cool!
I have posted the photo before of Pete Bloom's 1916 #1 with the offset scope I got to have a go with at Bisley. At that price you have won the lottery. A bit unusual to shoot at 200Y  but at 1.25" left of bore center a hit is a hit any apart of the Hun.



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The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: September 01 2021 at 8:38am
If it is in any kind of decent condition then that price is a bargain. No kidding! They are very hard to find.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 01 2021 at 9:02am
This might interest you.



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 01 2021 at 12:11pm
Agree. I have know idea of condition, make, if it has a scope, etc. I'm hoping to get more 411 soon but the gentleman is always very busy... and not much into email! I can totally respect that!


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 03 2021 at 1:03pm
Do any of the members know if there are repo scopes/mounts for the No1 Mk3? I know there is for the No4. Thanks!


Posted By: bubba ho tep
Date Posted: September 03 2021 at 1:34pm
Never saw a real great war period No1 MkIII in the flesh. Have seen two hoaked up bitsers , but it appeared then that the scopes were inoperable. My understanding was the vast majority of these were scrapped after the great war and the scopes sold off. They were not the sturdiest of affairs and scopes tended to be delicate. I did read in one book on brit great war sniping where a captured german optic was mounted on a service rifle and they compared it to the issue kit - think it was "Sniping In France".
    Anyhow I new a fellow in the UK whom was also a member of the old KCN newsletter 20 + years ago whom took a gorgeous 16 dated matching No1 and mounted a real scope and mount set he acquired on it. I kinda gave him grief at the time as it was to me ruining an honest hard to come by rifle ( at least in the US ) . He had to have one for an example at least.


Posted By: Marco1010
Date Posted: September 03 2021 at 1:43pm
my understanding was that during WW1 many different set ups were used for sniping. Not just the telescopic tube system we normally think of.  Gallilean sights, periscope sights etc.  so there is a fair bit of leeway in finding something that would have been used at some stage. the later snipe scope set up used on the P14 and later on the No4 T was quite proscribed by comparison.


Posted By: smerdon42
Date Posted: September 03 2021 at 2:10pm
honky I spoke to a guy in England about getting copies of Lithgow ht pads and rings made but has to be 6 sets to make it worthwhile 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 03 2021 at 6:21pm
Scopes were regarded (with good reason) as being fragile & unreliable back then.
A lot of WW1 sniping was done with what today we'd call "Target irons", simply because they worked better in trench conditions.
Times have (obviously) changed in the last 100 years or so.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: bubba ho tep
Date Posted: September 03 2021 at 6:54pm
Well I have to disagree on this. The germans did not have a hard time with manufacturing and installing optics of high quality and quite sturdy. I had a 1917 Danzig with a 2 3/4 power Busch scope on claw mounts. Very rugged , and even though low magnification it worked excellently and would deliver very respectable results. The ability to literally snap on and off the scope and not lose zero was amazing.  Meanwhile the allies had a myriad of mediocre attempts at mounting delicate optics and as often failed with adequate mounting systems for idiotic reasons like for example to be able to use the charger loading system. Hardly a needed trait on a sniping rifle.
   The Patt'18 sniper scope and mounting system was directly influenced from captured german sniping rifles. It was an excellent set up though the quality of the optics was not up the enemies standards, it sufficed but was introduced too late in the war to see use.
   The germans even impressed scoped hunting rifles in the trenches that were demanded to be turned in by the populace for such use. Was'nt hard for the german gov't to do as such things were registered and easily confiscated by the "authorities".
   More than a few british officers privately purchased and some even raised unit funds to by exotic high quality scoped big game rifles in the trenches with telling effect.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 04 2021 at 5:33am
I talked to the gentleman in Regina yesterday on the phone. I have purchased two rifles from him, a No4 in .303 that looks like a L42A1 and a No1 MkIII Lithgow. Both, in my opinion, are fine rifles. He is currently in the process of producing two No1 Mk3 sniper "clones". One is a matching hardware numbers BSA, the other a Lithgow. Both will have new furniture. I asked the forum about repo scopes and mounts because he mentioned the reason he is making the rifles is he aquired two scopes and side mounts. I didn't get the impression they were original. He will send me some pics in the near future. Should be interesting!


Posted By: smerdon42
Date Posted: September 04 2021 at 7:09am
honky I have a 1918 pattern Lithgow  scope and rings no mounts though . I have a heavy barrel brand new and will look to mount to a early receiver with a shot out barrel .


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 04 2021 at 7:23am
He has a pretty good reputation up here in Canada. As mentioned, I've purchased two rifles from him. He inspects and replaces all worn parts (checks headspace and replaces if needed). I suspect this clone would be a No1 Mk3 in top drawer shooting condition with new furniture. Some period correct scope/mount. I do not know what process armourers put these rifles through prior to calling them a "sniper", but feel it's ok to call this rifle a No1 Mk3 sniper clone. I'll have to wait and see some pics and get more details before buying... price is getting up there a bit...


Posted By: bubba ho tep
Date Posted: September 04 2021 at 8:04am
You should be able to find one of those jovino import lithgows to make this awesome shooter project happen . Love to see it when completed.


Posted By: smerdon42
Date Posted: September 04 2021 at 8:31am
bubba I have a few receivers I was going to use , but am waiting to get the pads before going ahead . 


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 05 2021 at 6:30am
I was giving my Lithgow some TLC yesterday. After shouldering it, I envisioned the rifle having a "side mounted" scope. I gotta tell you, as a southpaw, it feels more normal than I would imagine a right handed person for aiming. I always thought the same as with a Bren gun... 


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 06 2021 at 1:09pm
I'm curious. I know several of the members own No4 sniper "tribute" or "faux" sniper rifle. Many have been accurized and have period correct scopes/rings. What would these rifles be valued at? Here in Canada, you'd pay $500-750 for a decent rifle, $750 for repo scope and rings, then there is the cheekpiece and the labour involved. Thoughts? Thanks!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 06 2021 at 1:47pm
Oddly less than a Box Stock No4.
Even if 100% reversible.
Collector have their own set of vales. 101% authentic is the preference right down to dents, dings, scrapes, & original rust.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 08 2021 at 2:18pm
All that time and effort converting my No4Mk1* to a "T" rifle and then adding that 7.62x51mm NATO barrel to convert it to a Faux L8A5T does not change the fact that, it will always be a fake and not worth that of an original T or L8 series rifle.
To me, it is priceless.  To the collector of authentic weaponry, it's worthless. 


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 08 2021 at 2:46pm
While I appreciate collectors, who in a way keep the story on Lee Enfields alive, I am not one of them. I would take a faux sniper rifle to the range and be proud of it. I would definitely not try to pass it off as original! I asked the question as I saw an add a few weeks ago on a No4 sniper "tribute". Owner stated it as such, so no shenanigans there. Asking price? $4000... to say I was surprised is an understatement!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: September 08 2021 at 3:20pm
I’m somewhat the same, I don’t have a single LE, except perhaps the CNo. 7, that is original and of collector value.  Some day, I will bring back my Dad’s No. 4(T), which is mostly original except for the 1950’s Long Branch six groove barrel.  The original barrel was shot out when he got it.

All five of my No. 4’s have had barrel replacements, FTR’s, and/or upgrades to the Mk 2 config.  Two are DCRA 7.62 conversions.  Nothing of interest to a real collector, but they are all excellent shooters and I would not have it any other way.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 08 2021 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by Honkytonk Honkytonk wrote:

While I appreciate collectors, who in a way keep the story on Lee Enfields alive, I am not one of them. I would take a faux sniper rifle to the range and be proud of it. I would definitely not try to pass it off as original! I asked the question as I saw an add a few weeks ago on a No4 sniper "tribute". Owner stated it as such, so no shenanigans there. Asking price? $4000... to say I was surprised is an understatement!
...and that right there is the problem.  The asking price. That person more likely than not, added up everything invested into that rifle including the labor and wants it all back plus some. Regardless of the amount of time and money invested into the rifle to produce a, "Tribute," it will always be what it was to begin with cost wise when originally purchased. My Faux/Tribute L8A5T started life with me as a barreled action. Original total investment was $75.00. After purchasing everything needed to get it where it is at now, I could have instead, purchased an original No4Mk1 T minus the transit chest and accouterments. As stated earlier, it is priceless to me simply because I created it. What is it actually worth? Maybe $500.00? I never will sell it. It goes to my teenage daughter when I kick off this mortal coil...


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 09 2021 at 10:36am
Same here, I deliberately made my No4 Mk2 "Grail" uniquely identifiable instead of HC/PC, It cant be misrepresented by anyone. Not even accidentally.




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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Homer
Date Posted: September 09 2021 at 5:44pm
I like reproductions or replicas, especially when they’re done well. I don’t like when people try to replicate numbers and markings which is happening a lot. 



Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 7:13am
I just received a picture of the nearly complete rifle. I must say I'm impressed! Where he got the scope, rings, mounts I have no idea. I'm hoping to be able to show you all the pic shortly, but must rely on the kindness of people more computer savvy than myself!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 8:00am
HT, is it a repro scope?  Or a current commercial scope?  I imagine that original scope and mounts would be rare and very expensive. 



Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 8:48am
Do you need it posted?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 9:05am
Yes please and thanks! I believe it had been freshly d&t'ed to allow for the mock-up in the picture, so there are filings around the rear mount. He is kind of hard to understand, as he speaks a different language (he's originally from EnglandLOL) but I believe he said they are modern scopes produced by the company that originally made them. Please do not take that for gospel as I could be very wrong. From his asking price, I would not think they are original. Please feel free to comment once Shamu posts the pics. Once again, thank you, Shamu!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 12:08pm
OK Pics.
(hoping the forum will take the full sized one, here goes):
Drats I thought I'd rotated that. OK, fixed!




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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 2:17pm
That's cool!

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 3:48pm
The big trick with offset (sideways, not vertically) scopes is to sight them PARALLEL TO, not concentric with a POA/POI zero.

I learned this with the Trilux SUIT!

If it offset x" to the "Y" sight it there too.

If you don't the path of flight  (which is curved, vertically, but not horizontally) & The LOS which isn't will only be "correct" at one specific distance. (Think collimating aircraft wing guns to a specific range).
Instead shoot "off" always by the initial separation.
That way if its 1" left at the muzzle it will still be 1" left at 1,000 yds!


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 4:25pm


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: September 16 2021 at 5:46pm
Very cool HT!  I think you did well on this.  I’m looking forward to a range report. 




Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: September 17 2021 at 4:15am
Terry Lee. Your collection is stunning!
What year is the lowest rifle, and what scope please?


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 17 2021 at 5:33am
I did some research on repo vintage scopes. I wonder if it isn't a Hi-Lux scope that he is using on the No1? I'm calling him today to get more info and hopefully more pics. Our 40th anniversary is on the 26th and I can't think of a better present! His shop is about a 3.5 hr drive so we could stay overnight and go out for a nice supper! 


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: September 17 2021 at 7:07am
Zed, The rifle is a 1915 Lithgow converted to sniper configuration with a heavy barrel by the Australians in 1944. It is the high mount version. The scopes used were the Australian copies of the
M 1918. These rifles were introduced due to the Australian shortage of P 14 sniper rifles, but were arguably held to be inferior. They remained in service for many years following the war. I pass no judgement on their effectiveness since my rifle has a rather worn barrel. 


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: September 17 2021 at 10:38am
Thanks for the info Terry, that's an interesting piece for sure.

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: MJ11
Date Posted: September 17 2021 at 11:49am
terrylee
That is an outstanding group.
Thanks you for sharing. May I keep a reference copy ?

Pete Bloom's 1916 at Bisley.




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The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 17 2021 at 12:35pm
So this is some more info on the No1 MkIII faux sniper rifle the gentleman is currently building. It is a numbers matching Lithgow (I'm not sure which year) with all new furniture. It has been inspected and brought up to spec. The scope is a repo Malcolm Vintage 3x Short Telescopic Site made by Hi-Lux. It will be complete late next week and I will receiver more pictures at that time.


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: September 17 2021 at 2:25pm
MJ, Certainly, use it as you wish.


Posted By: terrylee
Date Posted: September 18 2021 at 2:51am
The next generation.



Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 18 2021 at 9:42am
My "Leatherwood ART 600, 3~9 X 40 Camputer" is a Hi Lux, they make nice scopes don't be put off by the early reviews for them.
The original factory had some QC Issues but they got replaced years ago.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 18 2021 at 12:46pm
I did my due diligence in regards to checking into Hi-lux and agree, early on, their QC was questionable but since are producing a good product... exceptional product judging by reviews on their Vintage Series that I believe are acceptable to many sanctioned US and A military sniper shoots. So I'm confronted with the opportunity of buying a 191? numbers matching Lithow (with new furniture) and a repo telescopic site system for something slightly south of $2700 CDN. I ponder, while watching Gallipolli...



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