Went to a range near Spencer, TN which has electronic targets from 100 to 1000 yards.  The targets are NRA High Power military type targets, Short Range (SR) at 100 and 300 yards.  Mid Range (MR) at 600 yards and the Long Range (LR) target at 800 and 1000 yards. 

I wanted to shoot my UF56 No. 4 Mk 2 DCRA conversion out to 1000 yards.  PH 5c rear sight fitted.   I loaded up 50 rounds of 175 gr. SMK’s with 40.5 gr IMR 4064.  It’s a bit “light in the pants” for a .308, but I’m trying to minimize bore wear and keep the load on the action down.

All shooting was done on my belly, prone in sling, no support under the rifle.  A bit of a shifting wind from 8:00 to 9:00. 

At 600 yds, this load really performed holding the 10 and x ring fairly easily.  I’ve shot this rifle numerous times at 600 but never further until today.  

Moving out to 800 yards, my first shot was a 9 at 2:30.  Added 2 MOA left windage, my second shot was just out of the 9 ring at 9:00.  Too much adjustment.  Came back 1 MOA right windage and next two shots in the 10 ring. 

What impressed me is the elevation spread was only 1.5 MOA.  That’s pretty darn good for a Lee Enfield with aperture sights.  Windage spread was more because I fiddled with the rear sight windage setting.

 The photo below shows the 800 yard target monitor showing the mean velocity (at 800 yds) as 1295 fps and a standard deviation at 10 fps.  Pretty respectable SD.  The rifle can shoot quite well at 800 yards.

Then on to 1000 yards.  Had to crank up the rear sight elevation to nearly 40 MOA.  First shot, no indication on the monitor, nor the second nor the third.  Well, crap.  The bullet is traveling too slow to register on the electronic target, it needs to be going above the speed of sound, over 1100 fps.  So, I took aim at the 24 inch steel plate.  That 24 inch plate looks like a tiny white speck at 1000 yards. I could barely see it.  The RO watched thru his spotting scope and said I kept nicking the edge of the plate, scarred the crap out of it.  

Here is the rear sight elevation for 1000 yards.  The .308 with 175 gr Sierra MatchKing has a slightly flatter trajectory than the Mk 7 .303 service bullet, note the range scale on the aft side of the rear sight base is aligned to 900 yards

If you look all the way down the range, you will see a white streak of the 1000 yard target line.  My biggest problem was figuring out which target was mine, I could not see the numbers on the number boards because my shooting glasses are set to focus on my front sight.  

A lot of fun, I’ll definitely be going back.  But, I don’t think I’ll be able to pump the loads up enough to get above 1100 fps to register hits on the 1000 yard targets.  

Are you shooting this from a Lee Enfield 25 inch barrel? 

The Sierra 168 gr starts to get unstable before it gets to 1000 yards.  It is not used by the military or in competitions beyond 600 yards (it was designed for 300m international matches).  The M852 Match was developed with this bullet for shooting the National Match M14 out to 600 yards with a Muzzle Velocity of 2535 FPS at 78 feet from the M14.   

The 7.62 mm Special Ball Long Range Mk 316 Mod 0 cartridge was developed for military sniper rifles using the 175 grain Sierra MK and remain supersonic out to 1000 yards (a design requirement for the Special Ball cartridge).  This round replaced the M118 Long Range round which also used the 175 gr Sierra.  The Mk 316 Mod 0 load is 41.7 gr IMR 4064. 

I would need a muzzle velocity of 2720 FPS to get 1221 FPS at 1000 yards with a 175 gr SMK.  Too high a pressure in the No. 4 for my liking. 

 The muzzle velocity of my current 175 gr SMK load with 40.5 gr IMR 4064 is 2460 fps, which feels about the same as my .303 match load with the 174 gr SMK.

You will do as you wish by finding out what works for you and that is a given. 

I have for myself, researched this particular cartridge for my particular setup going on 5 years now. I have made repeated chronographed charts shooting between 100 through to 1000 yards while using a bullet drop compensating chart as well.

...and yes, I am using my No4Mk1 with the unmolested, full length, military contoured, 7.62mm Canadian Arsenal 6 groove barrel.

I granted you with my findings and can do no more than that. Merry Christmas to you britrifles...

 

You should see the starting FPS of a .308/7.62mm using a 130grn SP and the starting charge weight of 46.0grns of Varget.  2892 FPS. At the Max grain load of 50.0+ "Compressed Load" that bullet leaves the rifle traveling at 3174 FPS. That is sure to set off that ranges electric target system at the 1000 yard mark.

The above information was taken from a very compliant and safety oriented reloading manual...

I might do 20 rounds near or at the max published data for .308, but I don’t think is a good idea to shot a lot of this, significantly higher pressures than the .303 Mk 7 service loading which will take a toll on barrel erosion and the action.  

If so then ,forego the 308 and get something more suited to getting the job done.  For awhile, the 30-416 was a great all around choice for 1000 yard plinking. 

I personally chose the 168grn HPBT in conjunction with 41.7grns of IMR4064 because it works well between 100 and 300 yards for target shooting and is a perfect hunting round, especially for Mule Deer and Antelope hunts. The C.I.P. is well under 40,000 with felt recoil below that of the Mk7 service load for the Enfield. 

I only have 575 documented rounds through my Faux L8A5T and the rifling still looks brand new so, not much barrel erosion going on that I can see.

I think I’ve got some of these bullets.  Varget might be good, H4895 or IMR 4064.  Will see what gives best velocity with lowest pressure. 

I can’t remember what the Long Branch 7.62 barrel twist rate is, I think 1:12.  It was intended for the 147 gr NATO boattail bullet.  The 155 Palma match should do one I expect.  Less recoil too. 

I don’t plan to shoot much at 1000, but I want to find out what I and the No. 4 7.62 conversion rifle are capable of with iron sights at that distance.  And I want to do this with minimal wear and tear on the barrel and action.  

A good part of it is to NOT zero @ 100 yds for a 1,000 yd shot.

If you do you'll need insane amounts of drop calculations.

The last time I had to make a 1000+ yard shot to target, I had to aim 6 feet up and 4 feet to the right. I had three different wind directions going on at the same time and 5 different rises and falls in elevation. The target was making itself difficult to acquire as well. The first shot proved worthless. The second shot showed promise with the third and final shot hitting the target just left and down of center. I still have my note pad with those calculations jotted down in my file cabinet somewhere...

Interpolating the Hodgdon reloading data, 44.5 grains of Varget should get me 2800 fps out of a 25 inch barrel at 42,000 CUP.  That’s only 0.5 grains above the starting load for .308 Win.  I’m quite comfortable with that load in the No. 4.  Strelok predicts 1200 fps with this load at 1000 yards so it will work on the electronic targets.  

Shamu, you really need to have a short range zero first, preferably at 300 yds, then work your way out to Mid Range at 600, Long Range at 800 and then 1000 using the estimates of elevation change from a ballistic program.  Otherwise, you will likely have clear misses if you first try to hit the 800 or 1000 yard target.  Or worse, you will damage the expensive electronic sensors if you hit them, the range owners frown on that.

To make that happen, it will have to be a calm day, or very steady winds!  

If you’ve ever seen the Palma Match rifles, you will probably think I’m crazy trying to do this with a No. 4 with a service weight barrel.  A score of 95 may be a very unrealistic goal.  

For comparison,  my .308 handloads with the 175 gr SMK took almost 2 seconds to reach 1000 yards.  I fired the shot, put the rifle down, and waited to hear the steel plate ring. 

 

I only have data for IMR4064 and IMR4895 using the 155grn Palma BT.

Note: + denotes a compressed charge.

IMR4895 

Starting charge 41.0grn  Max 46.0+

                FPS  2636         2914

                PSI   43,000      59,000      

(43.8grns has a PSI of 50,780 which is just under your 45,000 CUP threshold of the No4 reciever)

IMR4064 

Starting charge 42.0grn  Max 46.0+

                 FPS  2566        2885

                 PSI   39,600     56,700

(44.0grns has a PSI of 49,860 which is also just under the 45,000 CUP threshold of the No4 reciever.)

Both of the recommended loads have a FPS average of 2750 +- 100...

The Hodgdon online reloading data for Varget with the Sierra 155 Palma Match bullet from 24 inch bbl gives:

44.0 gr., 2759 fps, 41,300 CUP

47.0 gr., 2909 fps, 49,400 CUP

Interpolating this data for a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps gives:

44.8 gr., 2800 fps, 43,514 CUP.  

Which coincidently exactly matches the Sierra Ed. 5 reloading manual for this bullet at 2800 fps, but fired from a 26 inch bbl and does not give the pressure. 

Lyman 49th Ed manual gives 48.0 gr as max load with a 155 gr Nosler J4 match bullet at 2905 fps, 58,300 psi from a 24 inch bbl.

Hornady manual seems quite conservative giving max of 44.9 gr. Varget at 2700 fps from a 22 inch bbl.

The No. 4 with a 25 inch of barrel which will help, perhaps another 20 fps over the Hodgdon data.  44.8 gr will give me some margin on the 45,000 CUP pressure limit I don’t want to exceed.  I may bump the load up to 45.0 gr to be sure I get 1200 fps at 1,0000 yards. 

As always, published maximum load data is all over the map.  

Case: .308 Lapua Neck Sized

Primer: WLR

Powder: 45.0 gr Varget

Bullet:  Sierra 155 gr Palma MatchKing

OAL: 2.85 in.

Estimated Muzzle Velocity: 2800 fps

Estimated Pressure: 44,000 CUP

Estimated Velocity at 1000 yards: 1200 fps

Using a Hornady OAL gage, the bullet is seating 0.080 inches off the lands, which is a fair bit.  The 45.0 gr charge is just about at 100% load density at the 2.775 OAL. 

This load is at the limit of my comfort level for a 66 year old No. 4 action.  Albeit, I don’t think it had a lot of use, being a 1956 production year rifle.  And it was proofed for 7.62 NATO pressures by CAL (Long Branch) during the 1965/66 DCRA Conversion rebuild. 

 

I might go as high as 50,000 CUP, for perhaps 10 rounds, but that is considerably higher pressure than the Mk 7 ball service round estimated to be 42,000 to 43,000 CUP based on data I have from a 1960’s NRA publication.  The problem is that all of this is really just best estimates from published data that varies considerably.  

While light bullets like the 110 gr JHP come out of the muzzle very fast, they quickly loose velocity as a result of the very low ballistic coefficient (BC = 0.177 for the Sierra 110 flat base HP) and will be subsonic by the time they reach 1000 yards.  This is all about finding a load that gives a velocity at or above 1200 fps at 1000 yards so the electronic targets will register the hits. 

 I don’t know of a range in my area that has paper target frames out to 1000 yds.  If there was, I would be using my 175 gr SMK load with 40.5 gr IMR 4064. 

Last thing I want to do is overstrain the action and create setback of the locking lugs.  I will shoot very few rounds, so that minimizes the contributions toward metal fatigue. 

Loading this bullet to a muzzle velocity of 2550 fps will give 1250 fps at 1000 yards per Hodgdon online reloading data for the .308 Win from a 24 inch barrel:

Both of these loads are under the average maximum pressure rating for the .303 British 

Got 100 of these bullets in order, should be in this week. 

My buddy with the scoped 700BDL hit that metal with his second shot. The SKS hit everything BUT the 8' metal square. My turn. I dialed up the rear sight to its maximum 1300 mark, aimed at the center of the target and sent the round down range. 3.5 seconds later we heard a very distinctive metal on metal SMACK sound. I had each buddy aim exactly where I had just and each one hit that target. A P.O.S. Serbian made 303 round hit metal at nearly 1500 yard. Instead of electronic targets, can you opt to use paper targets or a metal plate? I know without a shadow of doubt that a 308/7.62mm will hit a target @ 1000 yards...

Once I get the rifle dialed into the center of the target, I should be able to hit the 24 inch diameter steel plates on the 1000 yards line if the lighting conditions are good, that’s a very small target without a scope!

The challenge for me is to see how well I can do at 1000 yards with the No. 4 shooting prone with PH 5C rear sight.  This will be just like the 1967 Palma Match shot at Connaught, Ontario where the Brits, Canucks and Yanks faced off in a friendly international team match.  The 1967 match was shot with the DCRA 7.62 conversions, 15 rounds fired at 800, 900 and 1000 yards.  Each team fired the No. 4 rifles and ammunition assembled by CIL.  

It’s not easy to find a 1000 yard range.  Especially one with electronic scoring targets.  The only downside of these target systems is they require bullet speeds of just over the speed of sound to register hits.  No issues doing that in the 7.62 No. 4 up to 800 yds.  But to get 1200 fps at 1000 yards is tricky for this rifle, not every bullet is capable of this within .308 Win or 7.62 NATO pressures. 

Here are the three bullets I selected to test in my 1966 DCRA 7.62 conversion.  Left to Right:  

Sierra 155 Palma MatchKing, 

Sierra 168 Tipped MatchKing and 

Sierra 175 Tipped MatchKing.  

These give high ballistic coefficients for their respective weights. Critical for what I’m attempting to do. 

All are loaded with Varget powder, 45, 44 and 43 grains respectively.  This gives high velocities for moderate pressures in this cartridge, and it is quite temperature insensitive.  Also very important for what I’m trying to do. 

The charge weights were calculated by interpolating on the Hodgdon .308 Win load tables to a maximum pressure of 45,000 CUP.  Predicted velocities at 1000 yards are: 1190, 1223 and 1212 fps for these three bullets.  Slight velocity edge goes to the 168 TMK.  I could probably go a tad higher in pressure, the rifle was proofed for 7.62 NATO by Long Branch, but I want to keep some margin on my calculations. 

The weather forecast is for temps of 40 to 45 deg F, winds 90 deg across the range 5 to 10 mph.  

The speed of sound at 40 deg F is 1096 fps. So, I’ve got a decent margin on that with my loads to ensure hits are registered on the electronic targets. 

10mph cross wind is significant at 1000 yards, will require 10 MOA windage correction with the rear sight.  That’s 100 inches at 1000 yards, and would otherwise blow the bullet right off the target at that range.  Reading the wind correctly is important for this. I just hope it’s steady.

Look for a range report on Friday. 

By the way, I’m not suggesting anyone that reads this to go try these loads.  You should verify for yourself they are safe to shoot in your rifle.  

 It is no easy feet shooting a service rifle out to 1000yrds.

While in the army we used to do inter platoon competitions, using 303T rifles and what ever else we could get our grubby little hands on.

 I shot  the 1000yrd range at Borden, hard to hit with only open sky to reference POA. If memory serves me correct I may have hit the target once out of 2 mags worth of 303.

Good luck with your shooting and have fun.

 

"It is no easy feat shooting a service rifle out to 1000 yds".  No doubt shiloh!  

With the No. 4 service rifle rear sight, and a 5 mph cross wind, you would have to aim out on the berm somewhere.  You might be lucky and be able to pick an aiming point on the next target (or two) over depending on wind strength.  

I've got my loads about maxed out for my comfort level. I've loaded up 50 rounds of each load.  They are about mid-range .308 Win loads, maybe a bit less bc I'm seating the bullets out past magazine length to get the bullet a bit closer to the lands.  If the Hodgdon data is correct (in terms of pressures and velocity) they will be within the 45,000 CUP limits I want to hold to.  

The No.4 action should be OK to 50,000 CUP, the maximum average pressure of 7.62 NATO.  The load used for the 1967 Palma Match was a 155 gr boat tail pushed to 2800 fps, and was likely at or just over 45,000 CUP.   

Edit:  My first two loads I am testing (155 SMK and 175 TMK) are both only 1 grain above minimum charge of Varget for .308 Win.  The pressures calculated are 44,000 CUP and 44,600 CUP respectively, so no issues there.  I will pump up the 168 TMK load to 2 grains over minimum charge, which is 45,900 CUP if the first two loads don't trip the 1000 yard target.  

Agree to your first line Geoff!

Over the last 15 years or so the target at 1000 yards does appear smaller than I remember it from my first visits to Bisley.

We've started our winter here and Stickledown range, (1200 yards) is very exposed so I shall probably give  it a miss until April with my No.4's although I will be using my scoped Accuracy International there after Christmas and into the new year.  

One oddity with my SR"b" .303 is that 900 yards seems much easier (or did) than 1000 yards looking back to the last three years or so, it might be where we're positioned as the 900 electronic targets are in the middle of the 50 lanes (slightly sheltered) and the 1000 yard firing point is at the highest point on camp at the extreme right near the clocktower. 

In the late 1990's when the NRA allowed civilians to once again shoot alongside the army again after a gap of some 30 plus years the maximum SR"a" distance was 500 yards although I have observed the LMG matches start of at 600 and do run downs to 100 yards.

A quick look through three of my Bisley Bibles 1920, 1950 & 1973 indicate 500 yards was very popular and if anything most of the 600 yard SR"a"  matches go back further in time although I would need to to a bit more reading to confirm that. 

Enjoy your range visit! 

 

I did "the Grand" at Bisley, way,way, back in the day.

You'd be amazed how easy its is to have someone shoot on the wrong target because of the large amount of windage sometimes needed.

Even with the what 12~15' spacing? & the big giant colored numbers. you're aiming of by yards almost some times & then with a little tunnel vision its easy to come back not one, but 2 targets & setup for the next shot!

I forget which range it was now but one of them had its berm & the berm for a different one almost meeting, but at a  solid angle! The wind could really whip round that corner, channeled from the other berm. From memory the other range was to our right?

It was only blowing 1/2 a gale way out there, but a gentle 3~5 mph steady breeze on the firing line, probably 35 MPH for the last 150 yds!

The old long range targets used back then had a 30 inch (3 MOA) aiming mark, for a score of 5.  I’m not sure I could see that with my shooting glasses today set to focus on the front sight.  I know I couldn’t read the number boards at the Tennessee 1000 yard range, I had to count how many targets over from the end of the line on each shot!  It’s just a little smudged speck in the haze and try to put the front sight just below the little speck. 

Well, should be fun and likely a humbling experience!  Part of what I’m doing is to try and replicate what the service rifle competitive shooter achieved with this rifle back in the day at the long ranges. 

"B-I-M-O" targets?

I vaguely remember shooting different courses.

Most of my shooting was at "The New Passage" (aka "Pilning") range as I was down in the "Wesufenglandt"a trip to Bisley was a treat indeed.

we used BIMOs & "figure 4's" ("Charging German" full size) targets.

I do remember firing with Bog Stock rifles at long range but I also remember using PH-5C sights "out there."

the memories are all converging now.

I managed to cross lane a fortnight ago, and I was only at the 200 yard point by myself!

It was one of those cold misty days with about 6/10 light value; in fact it's better described as a "Marie Celeste" type of day as there were about 5 people at the 600 yard point and a further three at 300 yards and myself at 200..this is on Century range with 108 lanes!

I was trying different loads in my 7.62mm No.4 and one didn't register which I thought was strange so put another one down range which did register. It then occurred to me that I ought to check the monitor on the next lane and there was my missing shot!

Shamu, giving your post some though I suspect you were shooting on Shorts Range which has now disappeared under the clay complex which was built for the 2002 Commonwealth Games. 

My first ever historic competition was held on Shorts and I met people there I'm still friendly with today, the loss of Shorts was a huge blow to the historic community and I don't think we ever got the numbers back shooting we had before they bulldozed it. 

The wind still plays havoc there albeit to the right of where you were shooting, during the McQueens sniper matches in the middle of summer, you can usually tell when the wind is creating a problem by the small whirlwinds on the back stop lifting the sand.

Ouch!

I really miss those days.

I remember watching a bullet or two going downrange because of the "halo" it created!

The elevation here is 1800 ft which helps increase bullet velocity.  Will be interesting to see how accurate the Strelok predictions are…

To recap, I shot my Faz UF56 DCRA 7.62 No. 4 Conversion (converted to 7.62 by Long Branch in 1966).  This rifle has about 1000 rounds thru the barrel.  Fitted with PH 5C rear sight.  Barrel bearing at the middle (sling swivel) band.  Standard front sight.  

Temp 45 deg, wind was across the range left to right about 8 to 9 mph.  Some squirrelly winds for sure as there are some places along the range where there is protection from berms along the sides, other places where it is open to the winds.  At some distances, the winds reversed direction!  Was tricky to deal with.

Two loads were shot, for the first time in this rifle:

Load 1:

155 gr. Sierra Palma MatchKing

45.0 gr. Varget

Lapua Case

WLR Primer

Load 2:

175 Sierra Tipped MatchKing 

43.0 gr Varget

Lapua Case

CCI BR-2 Primer

Muzzle Velocity predictions were made by interpolating on the Hodgdon online load data. Range elevation settings were predicted with the Strelok ballistics program.

All shooting was done prone in sling with no support, working my way down the range starting at 100 yds, then 300, 600, 800 and 1000.  These 5 different ranges have electronic targets that record the bullet velocity and shot position on the NRA Target overlay on the monitor.  The targets are the current US NRA Military type targets:  SR-1 at 100, SR at 300, MR at 600 and LR at 800 and 1000.  

The Strelok velocity and elevation setting predictions were surprisingly very close!  Generally within 20 fps and 1 MOA.  I was very surprised by this.  The actual velocities were slightly less than predicted.  I attribute this to the high pressure area that moved in last night resulting in clear skies by the morning. Adjusting for actual pressure put the predicted velocities to within less than 10 fps from actual.

Load 1 turned out to be marginal for triggering the target sensors at 1000 yards.  About 40% of the hits displayed a warning that the velocity was too low, but it did show the hit location correctly (according to the RO).  This warning required the monitor to be cleared of all hits before proceeding, if not, subsequent hits would not register.  

Load 2 was of course slower than load 1 at all ranges up to 800 yards where it was about equal to Load 1, but at 1000 yards, it was about 20 fps faster than load 1.  This is entirely a result of the higher BC of the 175 gr TMK over the 155 Palma MK. This bullet is the ticket to reliable recordings at the 1000 yard line.

My approach was to fire as few shots as possible at the Short and Mid ranges to reserve ammo and minimize shooter fatigue for the Long Ranges. Once I had hits in the 10 or X ring, I moved on to the next range after collecting actual velocity data.  The loads really performed, standard deviations were 10 fps or less for Load 2, a bit higher for Load 1.

Here is the 300 yard target with Load 2, three shots were sufficient to confirm elevation settings.  This three shot group was only 0.68 MOA extreme spread. Note the standard deviation of 8.7 fps. 

My windage estimates were a bit off at 600, but I was happy with the elevation spread at 600 yards with both of these loads.  This is Load 1.

At 800 yards, I struggled to keep consistent elevation, this is Load 1 and I overcorrected for my first sighting shots that were low.  Then undercorrected, but pretty tight windage spread.  Note that the grid overlay on the monitor (an IPad) is 1 MOA on all these targets. 

Then on to 1000 yards.  My first sighter was a ….

By the end of the day I had shot 80 rounds and was whipped.  The final 10 shots at 1000 yards with Load 2 was showing signs of fatigue and pain.  4+ hours of prone shooting with extreme focus and concentration is very tiring.  

Regardless, not a single shot was outside of “the black” on the Long Range Targets, including my first sighters. That was better than I expected, because that 44 inch black aiming mark on the LR Target looked incredibly small at 1000 yards!  That was very satisfying. My scores were in the low to mid 90’s for ten shots at 800 and 1000.  Not competitive for modern Palma Match shooting (which uses much more accurate rifles with 30 inch heavy barrels), but I believe these results are on par with the 1967 Palma Match results which used these DCRA converted rifles.  

 

I believe the 175 TMK had a slight accuracy edge over the 155 Palma Match, which could be because of the shorter jump to the lands with that bullet in my rifle.  The 155 had to jump about 0.080 inches and the 175 about 0.030.  The bullets were seated out past magazine length and single shot loaded. 

There was absolutely no signs of excessive pressure.  The primer cups remained rounded and extraction was very easy.  If I do repeat this, I will try the 168 TMK, the 175 TMK performed very well as is. 

This sure raised some interest at the range, everyone else shooting on the bench with scoped rifles.  The RO was a bit nervous, not knowing who I was, showing up with an old “wood gun” wanting to shoot it prone at 1000 “What did you say you want to do???”  He had me shoot first at the steel plates at 600, 800 and 1000 to mitigate the risk of shooting one of the sensors.  But, I was able to hit those little 24 inch steel plates first shot, even at 1000 yds.  Could barely see it, a tiny white spec.  Fortunately, the range faces north and it was sunny, so it lit up well. 

Some questions/queries if I may:

Standard front sight?

In NRA UK competitions it is legal to use a tube (globe) foresight, I for one struggle with a 6,Oclock hold and this one of the reasons I got Fultons to build me a "Transitional" No.4.

155gr Palma?

My last visit to the range which I posted about further up, re "Marie Celeste" type of day. I loaded some 155gr Palmas over 43gr N140 and quite frankly would have had a better result with my 12 gauge shotgun! 

Talking to the friend who built the rifle we have both come to the conclusion that they were seated too far back. (more work required here!)

The 168gr TMK's I tried gave a better result...but could still do with some tweaking!

I'm actually swapping the Palma's for some 168gr SMK's with a friend; two reasons for this, one is that they work a treat in my Accuracy International AE MkIII at 300x, the other is that in historic competitions in the UK we tend to shoot them in what is known as, The Spirit of the Original.

That may sound like a load of old tosh but it does rise eyebrows when your shooting in an historic match and the bloke next to you is shooting his SMLE using green tipped bullets!

I guess its a UK NRA historic culture thing! 

As soon as the weather improves (and my gout!) I intend to do some more load development, to that purpose I managed to secure 100x 150gr SMK, (the load of the day in the 1970's at Bisley) and yesterday found a friend selling some PPU 147gr bullets although the 150gr PPU seems to have disappeared off the shelves towards the Ukraine!

The main distances for this rifle to be shot will be 200x ~ 600x with the very occasional foray at 900x & 1000x. 

My last query concerns your comment,  "but I believe these results are on par with the 1967 Palma Match results which used these DCRA converted rifles".  

 

Thank you Mick, it’s been a long time goal to shoot a No. 4 out to 1000 but finding a range in my area was the problem.  I would have preferred to shoot my Fulton’s .303 but loading up a 174 SMK in the .303 to get 1200 fps at 1000 yards would surely be an overpressure. 

To your questions:

Front Sight - yes, I would like to find a PH tube sight!  Do you use a circular aperture insert?  I imagine that would be better than a post. 

155 Palma Bullet - i measured the throat with this bullet, no way to get close to the lands, the bullet would be almost out of the case neck.  So, I seated it as far out as I thought reasonable, the OAL was 2.85 inches.  Accuracy was acceptable, but not as good as the 175 TMK.  I want to also try the Berger 168 Hybrid.  

I totally understand the goal of shooting “in the spirit of the original”.  I tried to do this as far as possible with what I have.  The rifle is in the same configuration used in the 1967 Palma Matches.  But, ammunition used was a CIL load with a 150 grain bullet (I will confirm that when I get home).  It was a load developed for these matches, a not run of the mill ball ammunition.  Unfortunately, we don’t have a historic match for this type of rifle here in the US.  I would have to shoot it as an open Match rifle going up against modern match rifles used in Palma or F-Class shooting.  The No. 4 with a standard weight barrel is good, but not that good! 

Targets - this particular range I shot at uses a different electronic scoring program than what I’m used to at Talladega.  It may have different “overlays”, I will ask next time I go.  I’m familiar with the targets used in 1967 at Connaught, they should be the same as used at Bisley at that time.  The UK NRA Long Range Target at that time had a 30 inch bull scoring a 5.  This is same size as the 9 ring on the current US NRA Long Range Target.  I don’t have the other dimensions with me at the moment for the UK NRA target, but I think the inner was 60 inches, corresponding to the 7 ring on the US LR Target.  At 1000 yds, I was able to put about 4/5 of my shots within the US NRA LR Target 9 ring, equating to a score of 72/75 for 15 shots at 1000 yds on the old UK NRA targets.  At 800 yards, I put all shots within the 9 ring on the US NRA LR (Load 2), so that is 75/75 on the old UK NRA targets.  That was on par with the top Palma individual score in 1967, but I’m sure my handloads performed better than what they had.  So, as you said, not exactly in the Spirit of the Original! 

I am convinced that it is absolutely critical that you can clearly focus on the front sight.  I’m 62 years old, and my shooting eye is both near and far sighted!  For shooting with irons, I have a prescription that focuses at about 50 inches from my eye, the small aperture takes care of the difference to the front sight (about 28 inches).  For shooting a scoped rifle, my prescription focuses at distance, and the reticle focus adjustment takes care of clearly seeing the reticle.

Part way thru shooting at 1000 yards yesterday, I switched over to my “scope” glasses because the target was almost impossible for me to see with the short focal length glasses.  That just did not work, my groups opened up into the 7 and 8 ring.  You’ve got to see that front sight clearly. 

Sound like you had a great time.

I`m not sure how one even manages to hit a target at 1000yrds with irons. I`d recon at that distance the front blade would pretty much obscure what you were aiming at let alone see that pin head sized aiming mark.

My hats off to you sir.

I could probably manage with one of my large 32 power target scopes, but irons no chance.

I struggle at 200yrd with irons the way my eyes are....

The target blur has been a bane since musket days. You're shooting by either a 6 o'clock hold on the black (lollypop) or with a "tin Hat", (Making a Mushroom) & leaving a fine white line between the stem & the cap.

With ring type front sights & round bullseyes the big issue for many is using too small a gap! Bigger is better, within reason, because brighter is better & so you don't want a dim narrow doughnut but a fatter, brighter looking one! The eye/brain will process the dead centers for all of them without any conscious effort. Same with adjustable rear-sight apertures. Bigger is better to an extent.

Definitely sounds like something for my bucket list too (although I'll need to up my game before attempting it!).

I think you did a fantastic job on the day Geoff. 

Good preparation and concentration required to get those results. Well done!

I hope to get back there in a few weeks to try the Sierra 168 Tipped MatchKing, loaded with 44 gr Varget and seat the bullet out to within 0.020 inches from the lands.  I’m single shot loading, so no issues with that, I’m looking for best accuracy.  

I think that this rifle loaded with 43 gr Varget under the 175 TMK is a 1 MOA rifle, but I can’t hold it to that in prone.  For the most part, the elevation spreads up to 800 yds were all within 1.5 MOA, a bit more at 1000.  I’d like to be able to put all 10 shots in the 2 MOA 10 ring, so will work a bit more at it. 

Lapua case (new cases)

CCI BR-2 Primer

44.0 gr. Varget

168 gr Sierra Tipped MatchKing (TMK)

OAL 2.950 inches, bullet seated .020 off the lands

Once again, the Strelok sight elevation settings and bullet velocity predictions at 100, 300, 600, 800 and 1000 yards were remarkably close.  Generally, within 1 MOA and 20 fps of actuals. 

I had a bit more trouble holding good groups at 800 and 1000 with this load, although standard deviations were very good, 7 to 9 fps from 10 -12 shot strings at the long ranges.  The changing wind directions played havoc with me, while elevation spreads were generally 1.5 to 2 MOA at 800 and 1000 yds.  

The mean velocity at 1000 yards was 1215 fps, enough for reliable sound sensor recordings from the electronic targets.  

I did discover how sensitive down range velocity is to atmospheric pressure, so accurate predictions cannot be made until you have the weather conditions at the time of shooting.  You need to adjust the reported barometric pressure to the elevation above sea level of the range by subtracting 1 inHg per 1000 feet elevation. The Spencer range is 1870 feet above sea level. 

The other adjustment I had to initially estimate was the effect of bullet seating depth on muzzle velocity.  I was not able to chrono these long range loads to get muzzle velocity, and the range does not allow use of a chrono that is in front of the firing line. Brian Litz (Berger Bullets) wrote a good article on how seating depth affects pressure and velocity.  Seating the bullets out past the OAL specified in the load data tables will reduce both pressure and velocity significantly (because of increased case volume).  Of course, the opposite is true when seating bullets to a shorter OAL.

I am not as happy with this load as compared to my Long Range Load #2, 175 TMK with 43.0 gr Varget.  I had seated that load .030 off the lands, so I’m going to adjust the 168 TMK load to also be .030 off the lands and re-test. 

Now to the results; the good, the bad and the ugly…

100 yard sighter shots.  Came up 1/2 MOA for shot #3.

Did not take a photo of the 300 yard target, but first sighter was dead on elevation.

600 Yard, first sighter shot dead on elevation, a 10 at 3:00.  

800 Yards, the first two sighters about 2 MOA high and left (in the 8 ring). Adjusted rear sight 1 MOA down and held slightly low for next 10 shots. I totally pulled the third shot, a 7 at 5:00 by over compensating in my head for those first two sighters, ignore that shot.  

Wind starting to have a real affect. 

And finally, 1000 yards, really struggled with the wind. My first sighter was a 10, no further adjustments made for elevation (30 MOA above my 100 yd zero setting).  The last shot was an X, always like to finish strong 

I’m not entirely sure if the not so good performance today was me, the load, or both.  I did have several shots off that I called, and I failed to compensate for the wind when it became obvious it had changed direction (fishtailing from behind me, note the 2 consecutive 7’s at 9.  

It’s rather remarkable how shooting is all in your head, when you feel highly confident at the moment you release the striker, a good shot will follow.  But if you are unsure about it, a 8 or 7 ring shot follows. This just gets amplified at long range. 

Yes! You're always shooting primarily against yourself!

I wonder though, not having been there, was there a lot more wind at the target the the firing line?

Vertically I'm seeing nowhere near as much dispersion horizontally increasing with distance, as horizontally!

1.5 X 1.8

2 1/2 X 2

6 1/4 X 4 1/2

 then

2 1/2 X 4 3/4"

At ranges up to 800, the elevation spreads were 1.5 MOA or less, excluding the two sighters that required sight adjustment and that pulled low shot at 800.  Elevation spread increased to about 2 MOA at 1000 which reflects my difficulty seeing the target at that distance, the black bull is 44 inches in diameter (4.4 MOA) at 1000.  The bull is 6 MOA at 100, 300 and 600 and 5.5 MOA at 800.  

Windage spreads were fairly good out to 600, under 2 MOA, but open up to 3 MOA at 800 and 4.5 MOA at 1000.  I believe this was a result of the shifting winds and not the load. 

This!

We call it getting into the zone or the bubble; I switch everything off mentally and just try and concentrate on the wind flags and target, it's surprising the number of people who have no idea what size the target is and cannot even work out a simple correction in MoA when their first round is an outer. 

Some thirty years ago I was watching the Imperial TR meeting at Bisley and noticed some of the female competitors raising their leg in the prone position, this looked rather "flirty" to me back then and it was some years later before I realised that rather then looking for a date they were merely checking to see if the wind had changed! 

I digress!

The other thing that stops me from shooting well is being hurried on the point, usually by those whose admin is crap because they spend far too long chatting and when they eventually get on for their turn and spend endless minutes wondering what correction to put on their sights when it could have been done before hand.

One prime example of the above is a chap we call the "late" John Smith, (not his real name!) not late in the fact he's died but late because he always is. 

Last year we had an 8.30am start and he turned up at close to 11.00 am, he got down on the point (the rest of us had shot twice at this point) and proceeded to spend time going through his little note book with corrections in for the different rifles he owned, after some 15 minutes without firing a shot he jumped up and gathered his things, my friend who had organised the day said, John are you OK??

Forgotten my ammunition, was the reply!

This morning to up my game I've ordered a Hornady O.A.L. set which I've managed to do without so far because most of shooting has been done from magazines for service and sniping events.

I've also had two lots of cheapish bullets turn up for experimental purposes with my No.4 in 7.62mm, namely: 

100x PPU FMJ 150gr

100x PPU FMJBT 145gr

They both have cannelures so it will be interesting to see how far from the normal seating depth I have to take them to get them close to the lands. 

Geoff, 

Great post as always and apologies if I've taken this off course with my reminiscences!

I keep coming back to your posts for reference to my own reloading.

I’ve looked more closely at the long range shooting results for the three loads I tested, here are the elevation spreads for 10 shot strings at 800 and 1000 yards.  Distance to lands is measured with a Hornady OAL and bullet comparator gage.  All three loads are seated out past magazine length. Muzzle velocity obtained from ballistics program Strelok based on measurements on 100 and 300 yard targets (iterating on MV to match measurements).

      Bullet         |   MV   | Distance to Lands | Elev Spread (MOA)

                                                                   800x   1000x

155 Palma MK   | 2720  |        0.080           |   4.1      4.0

175 TMK           | 2560  |        0.030           |   2.2      3.0

168 TMK           | 2620  |        0.020           |   1.5      1.8

What I don’t know yet is if the elevation spread is due to the different bullets, amount of jump to the lands, or both.  There does seem to be a good correlation with jump to the lands at both 800 and 1000x. More testing is needed.  

I don’t think I can get the 155 Palma bullet much closer to the lands, not much bearing surface inside the case neck as it is.  The OAL was 2.85 with this load, only giving about 0.160 inch of bullet bearing length gripped by the case neck.  I might retest this bullet by seating to 2.80.  

This!

"We call it getting into the zone or the bubble"

Absolutely if "I can get in there" I'm going to have a good day.

Martial artists call it "mugga", (being at one with the weapon & situation, to the exclusion of all else).

I think a lot of the mystical, inexplicable, bits of Martial Arts are just the total focus on just what matters & all of just what matters automatically & simultaneously. If you're in there the things you have to switch focus on are just running on full auto in the background.

The Hornady O.A.L. is a great gadget for precision reloading. When I was shooting the custom Rem 700 I used it extensively.

Not so much now with just milsurps & the long leades.

Tip for you though, use YOUR bullet, not "the Dummy" & have a cleaning rod or small  dowel in the muzzle. That way its way easier to get that "just touched" point without multiple tries where you went a GBH too far.

Out of curiosity I looked at my loading data for the Accuracy International I have regarding the 168gr TMK, in almost all of the records I have just recorded it as "Magazine Length" but early on there is an entry for 2.87".

When the Hornady O.A.L. gauge turns up I may be able to tweak this a bit further for normal practice shoots where I use a plastic insert as a loading platform and load singly.

I increased my 155 Palma MatchKing Varget load by 1/2 grain (to 45.5 gr) and shortened the OAL to 2.81 inches.  This should increase muzzle velocity by about 25 fps and give reliable target function at 1000 yds.  This is the absolute maximum pressure I’m willing to push the No. 4 7.62 DCRA conversion to.  I’m estimating a MV of 2775 fps, 45,000 CUP based on the Hodgdon online data for .308 Win.  It is right at the midrange load for .308 Win for this bullet and powder. 

I’m not making any changes to the 168 and 175 TMK Varget loads, they performed quite well as is. 

I found another interesting data point regarding 7.62 NATO service ball ammunition accuracy from an October 1969 article in the American Rifleman magazine reporting on the 1969 Palma Match results held at the Connaught ranges just west of Ottawa.  1969 was the first year the Palma Matches were shot with the new UK NRA Target Rifle class.  Canada provided the rifles and ammunition, a Parker Hale 1200TX Target Rifle and Dominion Arsenal DAQ 1964 service ball ammo from a selected lot.  The reports from all three nations competing in the match (US, UK and Canada) were positive.  I’ll have to look thru my stock of 7.62 Canadian service ammo to see if I have any of this ammo. 

The winds were pretty strong at this match, requiring 22 minutes of windage correction at 1000 yards. That’s 18 feet of wind drift! 

Ironically Geoff it's your 168gr load that I have been replicating today although I'm using a 168gr PPU bullet instead as I'm waiting for some Sierra's to arrive.

40gr N140 (not a dissimilar burn time to Varget)

WLR (usually use CCI 200 but using up some odds just to get rid of them)

The conundrum will be seating depth, I will initially copy your 2.80 and take it from there.

The only thing stopping me now is the NRA (UK) website which will not allow me to make a booking for Wednesday because it says I haven't renewed for 2023....I have my new membership card in front of me! 

My short to mid range 7.62 match load is similar, 168 SMK and 40 gr Varget.  Does great out to 600x in my DCRA No. 4 conversion. 

Geoff there're are the cheapest bullet option in the UK, the ones I'm loading are from a batch I bought some years ago and have big differences in the weights. (since weighed and batched)

The batch was from a dealer in the Netherlands at an arms fair who I have since heard has/had a reputation for bulk buying of "seconds". 

I will try another 100x but his time not in a plain bag of 500x with no name on! (I can only assume they are PPU)

Current UK prices for bullets are: 

100x 168gr Sierra 168gr $69.29

100x 168gr PPU $52,00  

100x 174gr .311 $36.28 

The .303 PPU are really the star buy; their price underlies their performance, I had to use some for a 500 yard match last October and ended up with a far better score than I anticipated I would get without using 174gr SMK's. 

Interesting, all the PPU bulk bullets being sold in Canada that I have seen, now are bags of 50 for or more than what we used to pay for the bags of 100 bulk.

More marketing BS to drive pricing up up and away.......

Courtesy of Strangely Brown, the DCRA is now fitted with a AJ Parker “Matchmaker” front sight and I must say, after shooting the day with it, I believe it gives a more consistent sight picture with improved shooting accuracy. 

I doubt  I would hit the target at that range; but it's something I would like to try at least once. 

What I took from this is bullet choice is important for long range.  First, just to make the electronic targets work.  Second, is it can have a dramatic affect on accuracy.  My two loads were nearly identical; same case sized the same way, same powder (slightly different charge weight) and same primer, but the 168 TMK groups were about half the size as the 155 Palma MK groups.  I’m sure this is barrel dependent and much may be due to the amount of jump to reach the lands.

The other interesting thing is that the Lee Enfield is entirely capable of hitting a man size target at 1000 yards, and not just by chance, by well aimed accurate shooting.  The tough bit is actually seeing a man size target at that distance with iron sights! Unless that man sized target was silhouetted on the horizon, I don’t think there is much chance of a successful hit. The 44 inch diameter black aiming mark on the NRA long Range Target looked like a little speck at 1000 yards.  The old Bisley long range target bull was even smaller, just 30 inches (3 MOA, half the width of the foresight!). 

I doubt I can improve on this any further, as I’m the limiting factor, not the load.  The tweaks to the 155 bullet load did yield some improvement, and perhaps further tweaking may get it to shoot better.  

But, I need to ease up on this endeavor.  These loads are probably at 45,000 CUP and will take its toll on the action and barrel life.  So, I’ll stick with occasional long range shooting with the 168 TMK rather than endless load development work. I’ve done what I set out to do, so quite happy. 

Edited to add a few photos of the firing point and zoom in on the down range targets.

And zoomed in on the red box. This is about what it looks like at the 1000 yd target thru the sights, maybe even a bit smaller than this. The far right target, firing point 25, is actually at 900 yds, so it appears to be a bit lower than the others. The nice thing is you can shoot at any of these targets without having to move the entire line of shooters. 

Would you happen to know the makeup of your barrel and the amount of ammunition that has been fired through it?

  I ask this because the Canadian Arsenal made L8, 6 groove, right hand 1-10" twist barrel on my Savage is made of chromium molybdenum alloy with a hard-chromium plated chamber. It has 425 documented rounds through it and @600 yards, is producing Sub-Moa groups using 168grn BTHP and seated to a standardized C.O.L. of 2.795". The No4Mk2 Maltby has been producing Sub-Moa groups at Berger's 1000 yard range using 7.62 M30 174grn FMJBT's under 42.0grns of VihtaVuori N540 and seated to a C.O.L. of 3.110". The only assist the Maltby is using comes from the 12x40 scope...

It's even more difficult for me to see it if my blood pressure is high and not fully hydrated.

Your absolutely right about staying hydrated, vision clarity is the first thing to get affected by dehydration! And I’m terrible with that, I suspect I’m in a constant state of dehydration. I know guys who begin to pound back water days before a major match.  I confess to drinking bourbon the night before a match…

I do know a guy who shoots steel plate silhouettes the size and shape of a beer can at 1000 yards and he routinely hits them.  But, not with a No. 4 rifle with iron sights tho, can’t see a beer can at that distance and it’s rather hard to hit something you can’t see.

The times that we use a No4Mk2, it will have a 24x44 target scope mounted to it and once the POA has been established, that rifle will hit that target every time the trigger is pulled...😉

 At 1800 yards, just over a mile, the rear sight or scope would need 141 MOA of elevation correction which corresponds to 222 feet above the target at that range.  Most scopes might have 60 MOA of up adjustment, so if you dialed in max elevation, then aimed 120 feet (perhaps at a cloud?) above that 36 inch target, you would hit it.  That’s if there was no wind.  In a 5 mph cross wind, you would need 10 MOA of windage adjustment corresponding to a 15 1/2 feet of Kentucky windage hold over.  Would be better to do this in a very calm day. 

Pretty challenging shooting.  Would like to see that done. 

It would certainly be a fun day at the range trying to achieve those distances. Maybe a good project for the "Myth busters" team!

Based on measuring the Mk 1 backsight elevation scale, it takes 81 MOA of elevation adjustment shooting he Mk 7 service cartridge to get to 1200 yards vs 64 MOA prediction with the 175 SMK. 

Time to crank out the ol SMLE or Long Tom with the volley sights! We need 3520 yds.

Then you just apply "Kentucky Elevation" as needed!

"What is also unique about the dial sights is that there were several variations in design, and notably distance. Those employed with the Lee Metford, which varied in ranges, including 1,800-3,500 yards, 1,600-2,900 yards, and even 1,600-2,800 yards. The Long Enfields had ranges of 1,600-2,800 and 1,700-2,700, while the SMLE had 1,700-2,800, 1,600-2,800, and some with an extra long “pointer” for 1,500 to 2,600 ranges.

Now, imagine the odds of hitting a 44 inch vertical square, even if you could see it, that’s just over 1 MOA at 2 miles….the slightest change in wind, slightest change in bullet velocity and your off by several feet.  The bullet is almost dropping straight down at that distance, so you might be better off laying the target down flat in hopes it might fall on the target. 

I’d guess the odds of hitting a man size target (18 inches wide) with a Lee Enfield at 2 miles to be 100 to 1, even with a scope.  At 1 mile, maybe as good as 10 to 1, depending on how lucky you feel that day, and if there is any wind. Some of this also depends on how stable the bullet remains thru the transonic velocity region and when it’s subsonic.  

Now, with a .50 BMG or .338 Lapua Magnum doing over 3,000 fps out of a 32 inch barrel, you have a more reasonable chance.  Which is why these cartridges with long barrels are used for sniping out to and past 1 mile.  The .303 just won’t cut it folks. 

How we wanderer off topic!  Nevertheless, long range shooting is quite a fascinating subject indeed! 

Those distances where used for suppression fire to slow down the advance of the enemy at distance. A snow balls chance in he!! of ever hitting anything on purpose.

 A large gaggle of troops doing volley fire at a mile or more would certainly make your enemy take notice as the bullets bounced of there great coats. In direct small bore artillery fire lol

Brit, you forgot to mention the earths rotational effect on the bullet as it travels those distances.

I think this myth is busted, at least in my mind…I’ll stick with occasional 1000 yard shooting with the No. 4 and be happy.  I thought about trying to shoot to 1000 yds with my .303, but, loading the 174 gr. Sierra MatchKing to attain 1200 fps at 1000 yards would be a significant overpressure for the No. 4. It would have to be on paper targets. 

Whenever you feel froggy Geoff, just jump. The invitation is still open...

Maybe if we grouped a couple of hundred plates?

We could have a suppressive fire match!

It takes alot of time and patience and it is simply for fun...

Could we set up a 6 foot diameter aiming mark that is 45 feet above the bullet POI?.  That might work….

Interesting choice of bullets, the 123 Lapua.  That’s a 6.5 mm bullet.  A bit small to shoot in an .303 bore or .300 bore No. 4 barrel. Probably won’t attain much velocity. 

The rifle is stocked no differently than an Enforcer and uses the same mounting points the Enforcer uses for the scope.

The owner of the "Enfield Rifle" stuffed a bunch of money into this to prove that the .303 bullet is accurate out to 1 mile because someone told him that it was impossible. He is a world class BR shooter and his BR rifle is chambered for the 30-416. 

To reiterate.  The UF55 is still chambered in .303. The Krieger barrel looks identical to the L39/42A1 barrels. It is stocked and bedded very similar to the PH regulated Enforcers. It uses a scope...

 I’ve got some of those little Lapua .310 123 grain bullets. It’s got G1 ballistic coefficient of .257 and would need 170 MOA elevation to get it to a mile, that’s if you launch it at 3000 fps. At a mile, its velocity is down to 680 fps and dropping like a rock.  Not sure how I get that much elevation out of a scope.