Print Page | Close Window

Go Big or Go Home Range Day

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: After Market Enfields
Forum Description: What have you done to that Enfield??
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11871
Printed Date: March 26 2026 at 6:03pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.07 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Go Big or Go Home Range Day
Posted By: Goosic
Subject: Go Big or Go Home Range Day
Date Posted: February 06 2022 at 12:47pm
I took all three of the scoped Enfield's to the range this morning but forgot to bring targets. I only had one and only used it after I sighted in the rifles. I sighted in on the cardboard backer first and then taped up the target. (It should be noted that these were all shot at the 200 yard range.)
The first rifle used was the No4Mk1/2 scoped with a 8.5-32×50 Hammers. The ten shot group measures 2.53"×2.67"
The second rifle used was the Faux L8A5T scoped with a BSA 24×44 target scope. The ten shot group measures 2.15"×2.01"
The last rifle used is a No4Mk1 Long Branch with a donor 2 groove barrel and scoped with a Lucid 6-24×50. This one totally surprised me because what looks like only seven shots is actually seven shots in one large hole and three to the right. That ten shot group measures in at 1.33"×2.51"
Not a bad day today I must confess...



Replies:
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 4:35am
Bump


Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 5:27am
whats with the swirl marks on the last target, you shooting tracers at it... appears to match the rotation of the bullets, interesting.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 6:38am
My only theory on that is the bullet and powder used.
The first two targets were hit with Sierra Matchking's, 174 and 168grn respectively using IMR4064. 
The Man in Black used Hornady BTHP .312 174grn bullets with Norma 202 powder. 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 8:20am
Interesting, I’ve not seen marks like this on a target.  I can’t think of what would have made those marks…


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 8:45am
I've only ever seen it once.
I was given some .30 cal 170 gr bullets for the 30-30, they were specifically marked that way, we reloaded them into .308 cases using 308 180 gr load data.
Our assumption is we simply over-drove them to .308 velocities & they broke down in flight somehow.
 We retrieved a couple of them & there was a jacket, but almost no lead, we assume it melted somehow. Either from the hotter charge weight or the increased speed.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 8:51am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Interesting, I’ve not seen marks like this on a target.  I can’t think of what would have made those marks…
The first time I noticed this I had just sat down to sight in the rifle with the 2A1 Ishapore barrel installed.  I was using Hornady 168grn HPBT with N202 powder. I was letting my daughter do the actual shooting and scope adjustments. Through the spotting scope it originally looked like the bullet was going sideways into the paper. It wasn't until we walked out to get a better look that we noticed the tiny vortex marks. My daughter thinks it is unburned powder residue...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 8:59am
I thought too that’s what it might be, but I would not think it would carry out for 200 yards.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 9:04am
Whatever the case may be, it does not affect the trajectories so I've just chalked it up to really cool imprints...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 9:51am
And not all the bullets left that mark…a mystery for now. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 9:55am
Just the Hornady projectiles using the Norma 202 powder. 
The Sierra projectiles using IMR4064 left no marks...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 10:04am
The 174 gr .312 Hornady BTHP Match bullet?  I’ve got those and Norma 202, I will try it.  




Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 10:51am
I honestly believe it has something to do with the actual shape of the Hornady bullet. 
In the photo you can see the difference between the Sierra on the top and the Hornady on the bottom. I marked the area in question. 


Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 11:57am
I mentioned tracers only because burning bullets will sometimes leave these marks....


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 12:18pm
I'm going back out in a couple of weeks to sight in my .243 and Ruger Gunsite Scout.  I will also bring the No4Mk1/2 and the Faux L8A5T.  This way I can run out the remaining 308 and 303 Hornady bullets with the N202 powder...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 07 2022 at 6:29pm
I may have found an explanation.  I found a post on a forum with a very similar looking pattern from a pistol.  The consensus is that the jacket is getting damaged in the bore and hot molten lead is leaking out from the core and showing up on the target.  It’s usually only seen at short distances. If you have a borescope, check the barrel for traces of copper and/or lead.  Also, look for a damaged land. It may show up right behind a lump or smear of copper.  

Another explanation is the bullets are being driven at excessive speeds and getting damaged, but I really doubt that is the case with your loads.  These bullets are typically good for speeds higher than .303 British loads. 

It can make the bullet unstable in severe cases. 

I’m not sure about the Hornady bullet, but the Sierra does have fairly thin jackets.  You might have some defective bullets. 

I would hit the throat with some JB bore paste.  




Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 4:43am
I checked and rechecked the bore and found nothing out of the ordinary, yet. The lands and both grooves do not show any signs of damage either. I'll figure it out eventually...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 6:01am
This shows up only on of the rifles, correct?  Were these a new batch of bullets by any chance?  

Not every bullet hole showed the pattern, so it might be an occasional bullet with an uneven jacket thickness.  There only appears to be one small area on the bullet that gets the jacket scrapped off.  The amount of lead that is leaking out I would have thought those bullets would go wide from imbalance. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 8:29am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

This shows up only on one of the rifles, correct?  Were these a new batch of bullets by any chance?  

Not every bullet hole showed the pattern, so it might be an occasional bullet with an uneven jacket thickness.  There only appears to be one small area on the bullet that gets the jacket scrapped off.  The amount of lead that is leaking out I would have thought those bullets would go wide from imbalance. 


This group came from my All Black Long Branch with the 2 groove barrel. The bullets in question came from a batch that I loaded a few years back using the .312" GRAF BTHP's and the N202 powder. As I stated earlier in this thread, I checked the chamber where the rifling starts and checked the grooves and lands forward to the muzzle and found no trace of anything unusual. Actual cleaning of the barrel just brought out the normal fouling you normally have. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 10:29am
I might have accidentally found the reason as to why the bullets are leaving swirl marks britrifles and more likely than not, it's my fault.
You mentioned that those pistol bullets might have been damaged in the bore and then you also mentioned thin walled rifle bullets, specifically the Sierra brand.
 I pulled a bullet from that batch and saw something that would possibly contribute to the swirl marks. It is also my assumption based off of what I saw that the bullet was damaged prior to entering the bore.
I used to crimp the case as the bullets were seated. After pulling the bullet, I can see a definitive deformation in the ogive that can and would strike the rifling hard enough to remove enough outer material to allow the core to melt away from the heat build-up from the excessive friction caused by that deformation.
I have ten of the crimped cases left. Then next time out I am going to fire ten rounds of uncrimped cases first and then the remaining ten rounds of the crimped cases and I bet I see swirl marks from those bullets...


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 10:47am
Ah HA!
you may have hit the nail on the head.
I never crimp unless there's a specific crimping groove in the projectile.
What I do instead is to very slightly reduce the expander ball diameter, usually by spinning it in a power drill & polishing firmly to a mirror finish with a very fine abrasive.
This increases  neck tension without distorting the projectile at all.


-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 10:53am
I too have slightly reduced the expansion ball. When I used the crimp die I pretty much added too much of a crimp. I no longer use a crimper and haven't in years. 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 10:57am
Big smile Thumbs Up

-------------
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 11:04am
I will know for certain if this is the reason the next time I go to the range even though I'm certain of it now.
My issue now is digging out six boxes of loaded Norma brass that I originally crimped years ago. I know I'm going to find the same thing. I'm going to have to find an extremely clean container to catch all that N202 powder in...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: February 08 2022 at 4:31pm
I bet that is it.  The interesting part is it appears that only a fairly small area of the jacket is getting opened up, possibly because of the two groove barrel. If the worst part of the crimp hits one of the lands, the jacket cracks/breaks thru.  If the jacket was perforated in two spots on opposite sides of the bullet you would see two spiral trails on the target. 

I’m amazed that those bullets even hit the target at 200 yards let alone grouped at under 2 inches.

Years ago I used a light crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp die on the 174 SMK.  The thin jackets deform easily.  I stopped doing this and did what Shamu did by sanding down the expander ball in the FL sizing die and also bought a -0.001 mandrel for my Lee Collet sizing die to increase neck tension. 





Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.07 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2024 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net