Morning All.....& greetings from the U.K.

Pending a variation I have just agreed to buy a '69 7.62 Lee Enfield Envoy for target shooting at/out to 1000yds. It has it's original heavy hammer forged barrel but I cannot find anywhere online that gives the twist rate, as I don't actually have the rifle yet is there anyone out there who can oblige? Once I have the rifle I will do some load development for it but in the meantime if there are any enthusiasts who reload for one of these rifles I would be interested on your thoughts as to what bullet weight, powders & loads you use. I use VVN540 in my .308 RPA Quadlite but I'm thinking that maybe that would be too harsh pressure wise on the old girl!

Any thoughts or info would be of interest! 

Thank you.

Your best choices are a 175 gr or the 155 gr Palma Match bullets.  The new Sierra 168 gr Tipped MatchKing is a redesigned International bullet and claimed to perform out to 1000 yds.  What you want is the highest BC bullet you can find in the lowest weight.  

I think the barrels are 1:12 twist, but you can easily confirm this running a cleaning rod with a tight fitting patch down the bore and marking the rod at the point it completes one full twist. 

I recommend loading to mild .308 Winchester load data.  This is after all a still a No. 4 action.  Occasional higher pressure loads when you want to shoot out to 1000 yds would be OK, but wear and metal fatigue are cumulative effects. 

Let us know how it shoots!  

 I've been advised to try 41, 41.5 & 42g of VVN540 under the Lapua Scenar 155g, having run the pressures through a program it would seem that 42g would be just on the max pressure of 19 ton so I shall run some test rounds & see....I'll keep you posted!

Thanks again!

How to determine twist rate with a cleaning rod.

Slide the rod & a tight-fitting well oiled patch into the bore enough that its longer than the longest twist rate you can imagine.

Mark a long line longitudinally as some verifiable point (front sight is normal but any thing will do as long as its repeatable.)

Mark a horizontal line round the circumference at the muzzle or any other repeatable part.

Slowly withdraw the rod watching the marks you just made.

When the longitudinal line does one complete revolution make a second line round the circumference at the same indices as the first.

Measure the longitudinal distance between them.

Your twist rate is 1: that measurement.

#1: The 168grn SMK is accurate out to a negated 600 yards but, only if all the variables are in alignment. The fact of the matter is that particular 30 caliber bullet is realistically and repetitively accurate out to 300 yards only. Anything past that is a crap shoot.

#2: I recently was asked to participate in a 1000 yard shoot.  I no longer have my M700P so, I used the faux L8A5T.  I did happen to bring along 200 rounds of the redesigned 168grn Sierra TMK's and charged with 42.0grns of N202. (A powder specifically designed for use with the .308/7.62.)

That all being said. Between myself and 19 other ex-military "tactical operators," it was determined that the accuracy fell off sharply beyond 600 yards unless, you used a compressed charge using 44.4grns of IMR4895 and that only improved the accuracy distance by another 50 yards at the most. The actual test rifle was an, "As Issued M40A5" and produced SUB MOA groups out to 500 yards repeatedly. The CRO clamped my rifle into a lead sled and then had me send 10 rounds down range. It can and will repeatedly give 1.5 MOA out to 400 yards but only if it stays in the lead sled. The bottomline was the 168grn Sierra TMK is best left to the weekend warriors of the local gun range.

The original bullet weight that the barrel was originally designed for was the RG 144gr but the bullet of choice in the early days of TR at Bisley was the 150gr SMK over 44gr's of N140, I still use this load in a Whitaker Special and in the past a couple of L39's I owned. 

The 155gr SMK came along slightly later at Bisley after the army adopted it for the L96 sniper rifle; this was after looking through the plot sheets of the match rifle fraternity who have a long history of experimental long range shooting.

My gut feeling would be to stick with the 155gr bullet if you want decent results on Stickledown!   

The pressure I got using 41.5grns of N540 with the 155grn Palma Match bullet,  which is very similar in design as the Scenar came out to 41,300 PSI. In comparison, I have got a pressure of 41,200 PSI using 41.7grns of IMR4064 with a 168grn Hornady BTHP. 

Yep, which is why I’m surprised you recommended the 168 gr SMK for this application.  The OP is looking for a load that shoots good to 1000 yards.  

My recommendation is to do a search on what the Palma Match shooters use.  And it’s definitely not a 168 grain bullet. 

Yes, this is one of the bullets used by Palma Match shooters.

For those that may not know, the Palma Matches are shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yards only (Long Range).

The new version of the Sierra 155 gr Palma Match bullet is very similar in performance to the Lapua bullet.  You can load to a higher velocity than the 175 gr bullet, and still retain a respectable down range velocity.  Sierra has several different 155 gr Match Bullets, and they all have different ballistic coefficients. 

With a high power scope and shot off the bench, it would probably hold the 1 MOA X ring of the NRA MR target.  That’s dang good for a No. 4 with a service weight barrel.  An Envoy with heavy barrel should do better. 

I’m very satisfied with the 168 bullet out to 600 yds. A score of 97 and above is a NRA High Master score that it not easy to do with a military service rifle with irons shot in prone position. 

My recommendation is to do a search on what the Palma Match shooters use.  And it’s definitely not a 168 grain bullet. 

They will use either the Sierra 155grn Palma Match bullet with a BC G1 of .450 or the Lapua Scenar-L with a BC G1 of .473 

Interesting....

Thank you all for your time, I really appreciate it!

The original bullet weight that the barrel was originally designed for was the RG 144gr but the bullet of choice in the early days of TR at Bisley was the 150gr SMK over 44gr's of N140, I still use this load in a Whitaker Special and in the past a couple of L39's I owned. 

The 155gr SMK came along slightly later at Bisley after the army adopted it for the L96 sniper rifle; this was after looking through the plot sheets of the match rifle fraternity who have a long history of experimental long range shooting.

My gut feeling would be to stick with the 155gr bullet if you want decent results on Stickledown!   

I also use the latter out to 1000x which works (just!) but is hampered by only having a 20" barrel on my AI AE. 

Those loads should be fine for the Envoy.  VihtaVuori website for this bullet with N540 shows 40.6 gr Min and 44.9 gr max for .308 Win. 

You might have to play with bullet seating depth.  If you have a bullet comparator gage, check what seating depth (cartridge base to ogive length) brings the bullet in contact with the lands, then back off by .020 inches.  Secant ogive bullets are more sensitive to how much jump to the lands than tangent ogive bullets. If you have a long throat, you might want to try a 175 gr SMK.  

Data from the Lapua Tactical LR community also suggests this as well.

Testing done using The Scenar/Scenar-L in 167grn, 175grn, and 185grn stop at 800m. They also tested the 170grn lock base along with the venerable 185grn D46 FMJrebatedBT and those too stop at 800m.

As a sidnote:

The 150grn Lapua Lock Base has proven itself in the Lapua LR community along with military and law enforcement applications as well. A VVN540 starting charge weight for that projectile is 42.9grns with a maximum charge weight of 46.3

The 175 SMK has a very long history of success in Long Range Service Rifle matches (800, 900 and 1000 yards) for .30-06 and .7.62/.308.  I suspect they will also shoot quite good out of the No. 4 with service weight barrel or with 4 lb heavy barrel in the Envoy.

Even the Mk 7 .303 bullet is no slouch out to 1000 yds and has been used in the Commonwealth Service Rifle Matches since it was introduced into military service. 

If your shooting a Palma Match Rifle or other heavily built match rifle, you will see an advantage with the lighter higher BC 155’s as they get there quicker with less wind drift. These are usually shot from 30 or 32 inch barrels with a throat designed for the secant ogive bullets.  But in an Envoy, you might not see any advantage. 

 It will be interesting to see how the 155 Palma Match does in my No. 4, it has a pretty long throat.  I had to seat the bullets to an OAL of 2.85 inches, at it’s still 0.08 inches off the lands.  I’ll be very surprised if this works…

Back in my late teen years, me and my buddies would take our respective No4Mk1 rifles out behind one of Luke Air Forces auxiliary fields and using one end of the 4000 ft runway,(just under 1300 yards) as a shooting point, would fire at two 4'x4' metal targets painted red with a black X. Prone with a block of wood for forward support, we would consistently hit those targets using the Mk7 ammunition.  Standing and after figuring out where the bullets were striking we were able to effectively hit any section of those targets without a missed shot. Each shot took roughly 1.8- 2.0 seconds to reach the target as well. At 1000 yards the bullet would drop 308 - 310 inches/ 25 feet so we never actually aimed at the target.

Fun times those were...

There actually is no issues with that PSI rating. The 303 British has a CUP (Copper Units of Pressure) of 45,000 CUP

On the Piezo Scale using a conversion tool, that equates to 50262 PSI

Your 42,560 PSI equates to 35,680 CUP. The U.S. military pressure tests are even lower than the Copper Crusher Method. 

I have been continuously using 41.5grns of IMR4064 under a .308 168grn BTHP. Hodgdons data indicates a PSI of 43,800.

Using a conversion tool, that equates to 37,181 CUP.

That is -7819 CUP under the British Ministry of Defenses established 45,000 CUP.

If you stay right at or under 42.0grns of VVN540 using the 155grn Scenar-L, your pressures should never exceed 45,000 CUP/50262 PSI. 

The choice is yours to do with as you see fit however...

The 19 Tons Per Sq In is much more than 42,560 PSI Piezo Peak Pressure.   The British system of chamber pressure measurement is incompatible with both the US Radial Copper Crusher units and Piezo Peak Pressure Methods.  There is really no accurate way to convert the pressure in one method to the other.  The British system uses a copper crusher, but it is part of the bolt assembly in the pressure test rig.  An oiled cartridge is used acting as the piston.  So it is an axial pressure measuring system.

19T represented the average maximum pressures of the 7.62 NATO ball ammunition being used at the time in British service. That pressure is indeed lower than the SAMMI and European Standards for the .308 Winchester.  But the loads you described would very likely be within 19 TPSI using the British Axial Pressure measurement system.  The 7.62 Converted Rifles were actually Proof Pressure tested to higher pressure than 19TPSI.

I really appreciate your input, it is much appreciated, thank you.

I took my Canadian Arsenal 7.62mm barrel to them to see if the 22.3 Ton proof stamp matched or exceeded that number. Their test did confirm the 22.3 Ton proof stamp. During the testing I asked if there was a formula/conversion table for CUP to PSI and vise versa. There is and it was shared to me. The OP mentioned his concerns and I gave him honest and viable answers to those concerns based off of my knowledge that was shared to me by a very highly rated testing facility. While you will agree to disagree with me on this topic, the fact remains that, what I offered is valid and validated by the above mentioned testing facility. 

Zed, my overriding memory of Palma Enfield's is being regularly beaten by a chap called Keith Brewer  at our long range shoots at 800x & 900x yards.

My other memory of Keith is actually his Welsh Springer Spaniel called Jeeves who regardless of what he was tied to would manage to crawl onto the firing point usually with a large heavy range bag tied to his lead so he could be next to Keith. 

All of the 1970 Palma Envoys were set up and regulated by Fultons who hold the list of the serial numbers supplied and to whom. 

The ammunition issued in 1970 was the usual fare from Radway Green (RG) for the match and all the rifles were specially inscribed for the meeting.

One small reminiscence of the period came to me via the curator of the NRA museum at Bisley some ten years ago; he said that in the early 1970's a trip was organised for some well known UK shooters to visit the Ruafoss factory in Norway, on leaving the factory they were presented with a box of Ruafoss 7.62mm target ammunition which was evenly divided up on their return. Ted Molyneux the curator of the NRA museum, (sadly died of covid last year aged 91) said that the Raufoss was a revelation and they didn't realise how crap the RG ammunition was up until that point! 

I don’t see anything here that I disagree with Goosic.  Although I’m not sure I understand what you mean by the armory “did confirm the 22.3 Ton proof stamp”.  I assume it means that they looked at it and understood what it meant.  

There is indeed an empirical relationship between Radial Copper Crusher method and the Piezo Peak Pressure method.  The formula is an approximation that minimizes the errors in the conversion formula throughout the typical range of cartridge pressures.  

I’ve not seen any similar empirical formula for the British Axial (Cartridge Base) copper crusher method however.  If you know of one, please share it. 

What is quite nice about the British Base Pressure method is that it does not require the barrel chamber to be drilled for the insertion of the piston to obtain the pressure measurement.  

I believe the accuracy problems that occurred from the time of the first 7.62 conversions which lead to the heavy barrel TR was actually caused by the poor quality of the 7.62 ball ammunition.  The same thing happened in Canada.  Perhaps the ammo was being made on worn out WWII machinery.  

In the late 1960’s, the UK NRA experimented with stiffening the No. 4 actions converted to 7.62 by brazing on a steel strap.  Maj. E.G.B Reynolds wrote several articles on it.  Various Fore-end bedding methods were tried.  The rifle just would not hold a group, particularly at the shorter ranges.  In frustration, this lead to a trial with use of Kongsberg made 4 lb barrels, and very satisfactory accuracy was obtained when using Raufoss ammunition. The rest is history…

There are several of us on the forum who have got the No. 4 7.62 Conversions with service weight barrels to shoot quite well, perhaps a bit better than the .303, using handloads.  

I think part of the reason it took so long to recognize that it was the ammunition causing poor accuracy (vertical stringing) is very few competative shooters hand loaded ammunition for service rifle shooting at that time.  Ammunition was issued at matches.

 One of the 7.62 Conversion rifles I have belonged to DCRA shooter on the Bisley Team who was a good friend of my Dads.  He participated in some of the DCRA and Bisley trials that evaluated the conversions.  I’ve got his notebook.  In the final version he worked on in 1967 the entire fore-end from chamber to muzzle was filled with glass fibre, presumably with a poly resin.  He has pages of notes experimenting with different bedding methods in an attempt to get the rifle to shoot.  Never once questioning if the ammunition could have been the problem.  I have some of the ammunition he was using at the time, and found that powder charges varied by as much as 3 grains!  No wonder it would string groups vertically!  I re-metered the powder charges and re-seated the bullets and it shot nearly as good as my match loads with the 168 gr SMK. 

There's very little I can add to your analysis of this which I would agree 100%; No.4 actions still turn up in the UK with the steel "stiffening" bar still attached. This work was carried out by Walter Magnay (Queens Prize Winner Bisley 1976) for and on behalf of Robin Fulton. (GE Fultons & Son Bisley Camp) 

Robin Fulton like his forebears had been experimenting with Mausers and Enfield actions since leaving the services after the second world war, I recall being shown one technical drawing of his for a 7.62mm action dated 1958 so he was clearly on the case knowing that the days of .303 at Bisley were numbered. 

It would appear from those people that have had the opportunity to test fire these "stiffened" actions that no increase in discernible accuracy has been detected and the majority of the actions have had the stiffening bar removed. 

Regarding reloading; yes the UK was well behind the USA when it came to making our own...except for the those who shot the Match Rifle discipline between the inter war years. These people usually comprised of the upper echelons of society, either being titled or of military rank and had the blessing of the War Office and ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) in their strive to add accuracy to the MkVII .303 bullet. 

Nammo Defense Systems in partnership with VihtaVuori has their headquarters just east of me in Mesa Arizona along with Lapua and their RimFire Division...

That's very interesting to know; in the UK we don't have a fraction of the choice of powders that you have in the US; hence VihtaVuori has become the main choice of powder along with Sierra Match Kings in much the same way we pair gin & tonic together! 

Fulton’s we’re no doubt a first class rifle builder.  I have a No. 4 Long Branch that they built (Regulated for SR(b) shooting) in the early 1960’s.  They installed a new BSA 5 groove barrel and that rifle still shoots incredibly good after more than 10,000 rounds.  This rifle was ordered by a shooting competitor friend of my Dads who was on the DCRA team to Bisley for the 1963 meeting but it wasn’t ready on time.  He brought it back with him and never fired the rifle. 

I really would like to get a L39 or Envoy with a good barrel.  I’ve heard that these rifles are not worth much in the UK.  

Britrifles, sadly true! 

My last (and best) L39 was sold by a dealer in the UK last year fetching a very respectable £975 ($1273) with both the original No.4 butt and the No.8 butt I had been shooting it with. However "ordinary" examples of L39's have been seen to fetch as little as £600~£700 in recent times.

When it comes to the more interesting rifles like the Whitaker Specials, of which only about 50 survive out of 117 the value of them is typically about £500 ($650) and lower at some auctions!

When it comes to No.4 actions re-barrelled with the Enfield conversion kits sold back in the early 1970's then the rifles tend to hold the value of the sights only, I have seen a number of these rifles sold for as little as £200 ~ £300. In fact many rifles are bought and scrapped for the sights alone with everything else going into parts bins.

Unless you are an RFD (registered firearms dealer) in the UK the cost of holding onto surplus firearms and parts is prohibitive. 

When I retired in 2016 one of the first things I did with my pension pot was to get Fultons to build me a .303 No.4 SR"b". 

I specified a Long Branch action because my mothers sister had married a Canadian during the war and one of her offspring now lives in long Branch! Aside from that the finish is infinitely better than the majority of UK No.4 wartime actions.

Most of the furniture was new apart from the bottom fore end and the barrel is a Criterion made one; it is without doubt my rifle of choice these days, I would however like a DCRA pattern 7.62mm to go with it!        

I was looking over the results of the 1967 Palma Matches which were shot at Connaught ranges west of Ottawa.  No. 4 7.62 Conversions were used, with Long Branch made and installed barrels of service weight and rifles prepped by Canadian armorers, fore-ends “Center” bedded.  Canadian Service 7.62 ball ammunition made by CIL was used, which performed quite well, and would have been from a selected lot based on accuracy testing.  A 147 gr boat tail bullet loaded to 2800 fps from the 25 inch barrel. 

The total scores from the three 20 shooter teams (Canada, GB and USA) were remarkably close, only 11 points separating the first and last place teams (from a “possible score of 4,500 points). These were fired on Bisley Long Range targets in use at that time: a 30 inch Bull (Bull score was a 5), Inner ring was 54 inches for a score of 4, Magpie 84 inches for a score of 3.  

The average of the 45 shots taken from all shooters from the three ranges (800, 900 and 1000 yds) was 4.6, which is quite good considering the size of the bull (3 Minutes) service weight barrels and service ammunition.  And this was in 15 to 20 mph cross winds (range faces North and prevailing winds out of the west). 

Having these match results published is very useful, it gives us a standard to judge our own shooting to. 

Geoff

My own shooting is not what it was due to two spinal operations since 2012 which have robbed me of some upper body strength, I can no longer do service rifle either because kneeling (replacement knee) & sitting are out of the question. 

Having now told the world it's a wonder I'm still alive lets talk about targets! 

Targets for historic shooting are close to my heart and the NRA (UK) introduced new historic targets in 2016. 

It annoyed me somewhat that these targets were introduced and no thought put into the bigger question regarding plot sheets for them; luckily I knew the contact details for two Bisley shooters who produce plot sheets and they both kindly supplied plot sheets on their websites to cater for the new targets. 

The targets are known as NRA/HBSA (Historical Breechloading Small Arms Association) and are available in round bull or tin hat configuration, the scoring rings are of the size used in the early 1970's so very much at the end of the SR"b" era and just in what we now refer to as the Transitional classification of rifle, i.e. First generation target rifle built on 1946 ~ 1960 design 7.62mmx51 NATO.

One issue with the new targets is that some historic shooters don't like them citing that the aiming point is rather small being the same width as the foresight blade on an Enfield. I tend to agree that a larger aiming point would be easier but that's just an age thing, most of the whingers are my age or older, read into that what you will! 

For long range, (800~900~1000) there is only the current NRA TR target which is V bull = 14.4" Bull = 24" Inner 48" (also the aiming point) Magpie 72" and finally the outer which is a massive 96". 

It's interesting to see how the scoring rings have shrunk over the years as better ammunition has been introduced, GGG being the current favourite until a couple of years ago when it started to break the extractors on certain rifles, (Paramount's spring to mind) the cause of which was tracked down to excessive primers...all of the TR shooters over here are on tenterhooks wondering what this years issue of ammunition for the Imperial meeting will be like. 

For comparison, the US NRA High Power Rifle Long Range Target (used in modern Service Rifle Matches at 800, 900 and 1000 yds) has a 10 inch X Ring, 20 inch 10 ring and 30 inch 9 ring, etc.  so a bit smaller sized rings than the UK NRA TR Long Range target.  Sometime in the next few weeks, I plan to shoot my DCRA No. 4 Conversion (circa 1966) out to 1000 yards on this target to see how it does.  I’m curious if me and my handloads can better the 1967 Palma Match results. 

As to my Fulton Regulated Long Branch No. 4, in .303, I’ve concluded it is perhaps a 1 to 1.5 MOA rifle for 95% of shots fired off a bench with a scope.   My own prone slow fire shooting in matches with the service Mk 1 rear sight will sometimes hold ten consecutive shots to just over 1.5 MOA, but more typically within 2 MOA.  My DCRA 7.62 Conversion, barrel bedding at the middle band, is slightly better, mind you, it has less than 1000 rounds thru the barrel.  

Geoff

The majority of our members do indeed shoot their rifles, using them for hunting, occasional target shooting practice, shooting casually off the bench, etc.  But only a few of us, to my knowledge, have in the past, or currently, enter shooting competitions with our beloved Lee Enfield Rifles.  There are a few who are avid collectors, and they possess unique detail knowledge of the Lee Enfield that is of particular value. 

You won't find that kind of stuff here.

We even discuss sporters!

Well sometimes, at least.

 

One regret I have when we formed the Lee Enfield Rifle Association was that there was no appetite for a "sporting" section given how cheap .303 sporting rifles were, (and still are!) and that we have a running boar range at Bisley to use them on.

Talk about missed opportunities! 

About 18 years ago I did use an L39 in the NRA (UK) Civilian Service Rifle competitions under "Any Irons", I simply fitted the Mk1 micrometer leaf sight from a No.5 I had spare and tried to remember the number of clicks difference for the various distances on the sight...sometimes forgetting what I should put on! 

My overall impression was that it was ok for most things prone but for the standing & kneeling disciplines it really wasn't "pointy" enough and the barrel weight was against me. 

An Envoy could be used in F-Class competition in several categories, but not in a Service Rifle match.

I’d really like to use my DCRA 7.62 in the Vintage Military Matches, but it is a non-standard calibre, the barrel is bedded at a non-standard location in the fore-end (at the sling swivel band).  It wouldn’t be usable anyway in the rapid fire stage without a reliable means of spent case ejection (I’m using a 2A1 magazine).

The majority of service rifle shooters over here tend to use AR15's, albeit the straight pull variety to comply with UK law and and we have no restrictions on magazine capacity; a friend with a neck problem uses a 40 rd mag when mag resting to help ease the pressure on his neck and spine. 

All matches are shot on standard issue figure targets, Fig 11, Fig 12 etc even though there was a movement at one time to get figure targets banned for civilian use; cadets still use a swirly pattern target which at 100 yards looks identical to the normal figure target! You have to ask yourself why?