Rims jamming each other in the magazine
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Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Info for New Enfield Owners
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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12132
Printed Date: June 03 2023 at 9:55pm
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Topic: Rims jamming each other in the magazine
Posted By: Emerritt14
Subject: Rims jamming each other in the magazine
Date Posted: July 07 2022 at 2:53pm
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I recently picked up a Lithgow no 1 mk 3 made in 1941. I love the rifle. But I'm having trouble with using the chargers. When ever I load the rifle with two chargers and stagger them the way they are supposed to (3 down 2 up), the rims get jammed on each other in the magazine. When I try to pick up one round with the bolt it's rims catches on the second round below it causes the rifle to not cycle. Any help would be greatly appreciated |
Replies:
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 07 2022 at 5:36pm
 Is this how your are loading the charger? |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: July 07 2022 at 6:21pm
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This issue came up recently in another forum, and I also had rim
lock at the range last week. I am copying this picture which was
posted on the thread. This maybe a little easier to see than a live
photo. Someone said an easy way to remember is DUDUD. Sorry about all the posts - i couldn't get the photo to load.  ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: scottz63
Date Posted: July 07 2022 at 6:56pm
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Wouldn't DUDUD cause rim lock on the 1st and 3rd rounds? ------------- 14EH AIT Instructor-PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: July 07 2022 at 7:22pm
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I thought the same thing, but this pattern was repeated by several posters, and is the pattern loaded into Brtifiles Charger. I haven't yet investigated how this works! ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 07 2022 at 7:51pm
| it was used by commonwealth forces for a long time in these rifles |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 3:49am
| It’s always worked for me in the rapid fire stages where we must recharge the magazine. I also haven’t tried to find out how it works, it just does. Some of the commercial cases don’t have a well radiused rim on the back edge, which will allow the cartridge being chambered to override the rim on one below it. |
Posted By: scottz63
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 4:51am
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Interesting. I had thought it would be better to load the charger with every rim in front of the previous one.
------------- 14EH AIT Instructor-PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 9:17am
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Actual British and Commonwealth military ammo had a bevel on the rim to alleviate rim jams, commercial ammo made today not so much. ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: Enfield trader
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 9:43am
| https://youtu.be/MOYTdoQkFrM" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/MOYTdoQkFrM |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 9:49am
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The BOTR vid does it well. thumb position & angle is the trick, so is forcing them FULLY ALL THE WAY down. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: scottz63
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 9:53am
Hmm... Learn something new every day here. Thanks! Just compared. Modern PPU ammo on the left, WW2 ammo on the right. You can clearly see more of a bevel on the back edge of the rim on the WW2 ammo.  ------------- 14EH AIT Instructor-PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer |
SW28fan wrote:Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 12:32pm
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Maybe this will help?  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 1:17pm
My PPU cases don’t have that undercut just in front of the rim. How long have you had those cases? |
Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 1:30pm
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Something else you might consider is the actual loading process as taken from pg.183 of The Lee-Enfield by Ian Skennerton: (QUOTE) LOADING (a) Turn safety catch to the forward firing position with the thumb of the right hand. (b) Grasp the knob of the bolt with the forefinger and thumb of the right hand; turn it sharply upward, and draw back the bolt to its full extent. (c) Take a charger between the thumb and first two fingers of the right hand, and place it vertically in the charger guide. [Pay close attention to the last sentence in the following paragraph.] (d) Place the ball of the thumb immediately in front of the charger on the top round, and hooking the forefinger under the magazine, force the row of cartridges down with a firm but continuous pressure until the top cartridge is engaged in the magazine. A further charger may be inserted IF necessary. (END QUOTE) I cannot for the life of me remember where I had read about never fully charging the Lee-Enfield magazine because it can over compress the follower spring and tilt the follower enough to cause a rim jam and after reading this it kinda makes sense...
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 3:04pm
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It was a fairly common practice. Load with 5 so you were never "empty" on the first indication of "contact" slip 5 more in there. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 9:06pm
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that makes sense , ive never noticed the bevel , but then i always shot milsurp ammo in mine , its what my father gave me for the mkIII and what i bought to resupply , i guess ill never have to worry of it as i have enough for the rest of my life - assuming its as short as i think it might be NO , im not dyeing yet but im certain its just a matter of time but i have a supply and shoot these seldom , at current rate i can go for 20 years - ill not live that long , now 22s might be a whole nuther story , but 12 ga im good and 45 colt is looking promising i need to work on the 38 spcl tho ,
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Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 3:05am
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I use PPU in all of my .303's. I use the chargers for reloading in the competition's. If the rounds are properly placed in the chargers, I don't have issues with jamming. However you do need to ensure that the rounds are pushed well into the magazine, and allow the spring to push them back up. If the first round won't pickup on the bolt; push the rounds down into the magazine well as and let them pop back up. Usually this will sort them out. One thing to look out for, is the quality of the charger clips. There are some awful late production which don't work, scratch the cases and are not made of the proper spring steel. Wartime production are generally very good. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 3:45am
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I’ve found the same thing. But I rarely have a feeding issue in my Long Branch I use in matches, but it’s only charged with 5 rounds at a time. Zed, do your matches allow magazine feeding in the prone slow fire stages? Ours are single shot only. Rapid fire stages are of course with magazine loading, we start with 5 in the magazine, bolts closed on empty chamber or bolt open. Then a reload with a five round charger after the first five are fired. For M1 and AR, it’s two rounds in the first clip/mag and 8 in the other. |
Posted By: scottz63
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 4:13am
Late last year I think on those. ------------- 14EH AIT Instructor-PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer |
Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 4:44am
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Our match's are shot with 5 rounds in magazine, with a reload of another 5 during the time allowed. This is so it's an equal playing field for those that have rifles with a 5 round mag' as standard. There is a command to load, followed by the command to fire, which also starts the clock. Less variety in our matches, it's 200 m prone slow, 7 minutes for 10 shots. Then rapid is 200m prone 3 minutes for 10 shots. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 5:04am
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Three minutes for ten shots should be quite comfortable to shoot, especially not having to take the rifle off your shoulder for single shot loading. Our rapid stage for the vintage matches is 80 seconds and time starts with shooters standing, so you first have to get into position, but even that feels quite comfortable. It took me several years to slow down my pace, I was finishing in less than 60 seconds.
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Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 9:21am
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Yes 3 minutes is ok plenty of time. To be honest, I generally clear the precision phase in 3 minutes as well. I know some say that it's better to take the full 7 minutes; but I feel that I get uncomfortable after 5 minutes on my elbows. So always shoot faster than necessary. ------------- It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice! |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 12:09pm
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I find that your focus and ability to hold steady during the respiratory pause only lasts about 3 or 4 seconds. If you hold back the shot much longer than that, it will go astray, your better off going thru the breathing cycle again. Generally, I think your better to move thru the 10 (or 20) rounds fairly quickly. I sometimes shoot smaller groups in the rapid fire stage, taking one shot each breath, about every 4 seconds. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 1:05pm
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Agreed, I'm finding that the time is reducing as I get older too. If time permits I do a couple of deep exhale (blows out the Co2) & full,but not forced inhale (loads the blood with oxygen) while looking away from the sight picture, just the eyes don't sh*t position, is a big help too. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 1:20pm
| That’s a good thought Shamu, get some O2 in the blood, I keep forgetting to do that! Staying hydrated too is important for vision acuity. |
Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 8:41am
| Would I be correct in assuming the bullets had to be staggered in a Bren magazine? Was loading a magazine done by hand or did they have a charger? Thanks! |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 8:58am
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That was one reason for the sharp curvature of the Bren mag in .303 so they'd do that, "jumping rims magic" as they went into the mag. You could use standard chargers. Plus the riflemen in a squad usually had several pre-loaded Bren mags in the big "universal pouches". Charger adapter for bren:  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 9:45am
| Anybody ever try to adapt a Bren magazine to fit a No4?🤔 (Be tough to shoot in the prone position!) |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 12:04pm
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It won't fit. Its way too big to fit in the magazine well.  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Marco1010
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 4:32pm
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Bren gun magazines were used on the Charlton automatic rifle which repurposed Lee Metford rifles on the Mk 1 and SLME rifles on the Mk 2. but i'm fairly sure this involved a massive amount of engineering rework. |
Posted By: scottz63
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 5:26pm
Too bad. That would be fun. ------------- 14EH AIT Instructor-PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer |
Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 3:33pm
Just catching-up on this post - great photo's and explanation of charger reloading. The rim comparison of modern PPU v war-time was really interesting. Attached is a photo of a spent PPU 303B from my bag. I don't know when these were purchased, but I am guessing 1-2 years ago. photo is a little blurry, but more closely resembles the war-time brass. ------------- "Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates |