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Any Antlered Deer

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: 7.62 Enfield
Forum Description: All things to do with the 7.62 Enfield
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12134
Printed Date: October 06 2022 at 10:40am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Any Antlered Deer
Posted By: Goosic
Subject: Any Antlered Deer
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 6:54pm
I got a Deer tag for the week of Oct. 21 - 31. The hunt area is riddled with scrub pines, mesquite, ilex holly and cottonwood. Along with steepsided granite canyons that occasionally open up to flatlands.
I will be using the Faux L8A5T. I needed a rear sight with a ghost ring unlike the TR versions that have had them removed due to scope clearance issues. I took a Poole manufactured MkI micrometer sight and filed down the outside radius of the ghost ring until I got the scope to clear while mounted to the rifle. This will afford me the luxury of being able use it in both capacities if the need arises. Without the scope the rifle weighs in at 6.8lbs so it should make for an excellent brush gun. I will be using a 180grn Norma Vulkan projectile with 39.0grns of VVN540 seated to a C.O.L. of 2.700"...



Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 08 2022 at 9:07pm
no worries , if you find them the brown is down , 


Posted By: Doco Overboard
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 5:07am

Looks like in the second picture the ocular bell of the scope interferes with about half the diameter of the aperture.
Is your set up as such that you can remove the scope as option or is it intended to work in place?


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 7:43am
The iron sights are intended to be used with the scope removed. 


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 10:44am
I hunt and see what I can get.

Horns are nice but meat fills the freezer. No matter how long I cook them I can not eat horns.


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 10:57am
There's only a certain time of the year you can hunt antlerless deer here and the hunt choices suck cowpies. The area i applied for only had 59 tags available.  I got tag 59. The area has a very dense population of Mule Deer and if you have the patience, you can typically take down a good size 8 point buck...


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: July 09 2022 at 11:15am
That works for me.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Dragunov
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 4:31am
I envy you. Our deer here in Florida rarely exceed 100 lbs. Thankfully we can make up for it in our hog population. Where did you find those Norma 180s?


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 5:01am
Optics Planet.com
They have excellent penetration and expansion. 


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 5:02am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

They have excellent penetration and expansion. 
That's what she said!!!


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 5:06am
Originally posted by Dragunov Dragunov wrote:

I envy you. Our deer here in Florida rarely exceed 100 lbs.
The last Muley I took down in my chosen hunt area resulted in over 100lbs of usable meat...


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 5:13am
Originally posted by Dragunov Dragunov wrote:

I envy you. Our deer here in Florida rarely exceed 100 lbs. Thankfully we can make up for it in our hog population. Where did you find those Norma 180s?
Typical Arizona Muley...


Posted By: SGonger
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 5:38am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

Optics Planet.com
They have excellent penetration and expansion. 
They would prolly do wonders on feral donkeys too 🤔😉
Good luck with the hunting 🍻👍
Cheer’s.


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Anyone seen the Tardis Box anywhere? 🤨


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 9:24am
The southern part of our province has mulies, but very few my way. I've only ever seen two (shot one aboot 15 years ago. Had no idea it wasn't a goofy looking whitetail!) Now they don't "forgive" you for that. You'd get a fine. We do have some good sized whitetails, but I think I Saskatchewan still holds the "typical" world record, but I may be mistaken.


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 9:34am
Went to the range this morning. (Preface: Everything was done at 100 yards only.)
I started out by using 168grn Sierra TMK's to get the 7.62mm No4Mk1* Enfield on target. When I was dialed in, I used the 180grn Norma Vulkan. This is where it got intresting. The 180grn bullets are flat based and shot 1" lower. No biggie there, just 4 clicks up and, "Disco." The intresting part is that the Vulkan Hunting Bullets produced a much tighter group than that of the 168grn Sierra Tipped MatchKing bullets with the boattail. It might have something to do with the bullet diameter of the Vulkan, which is .309" as opposed to the .308" of the Sierra. The end result for me is, "If there is something standing in front of me come this October, it's going to fall down very abruptly."
Each square is 1" to give reference to how tight the groups are using the Vulkan hunting bullets...


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: July 10 2022 at 9:40am
That'll work!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 5:22am
I bought a box of 168 TMKs last year and planning to try them in my DCRA 7.62 conversion, but have not had the chance yet. 

 Quite a different profile than the 168 SMK.  The TMK has a shallower boattail and a secant ogive vs the SMK tangent ogive.  These changes give a significant increase in BC and the TMK supposedly remains stable out past 1000 yds.

I suspect the TMK would have to be seated out longer than the SMK to get the bullet close to the lands. A secant ogive can be more sensitive to amount of bullet jump.  

168 TMK on left, 168 SMK on right. I’m expecting I won’t be able to load the TMK to magazine length and be anywhere near the lands in my Long Branch 7.62 barrel. That’s what I found with the 175 gr TMK.






Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 6:50am
I personally believe that the Faux L8A5T prefer the heavier bullet. 
You mentioned seating it out as far as possible. The Vulkan round has a C.O.L. of 2.705" and the Sierra round has a C.O.L. of 2.795" and yet the Vulkan dedicated hunting round showed considerably more consistency on overall performance against a dedicated target round. I too have both the 168grn TMK and SMK projectiles and when used in my Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle, cannot tell the difference between the two when out paper punching with both producing sub-moa groups, and yet when applied to the Enfield, the groupings become less than satisfactory. I took twenty shots with the 168grn TMK's and twenty with the 180grn Vulkans to run a comparison check. The averaged spread measured both horizontal and vertical for the 168grn Sierra TMK's while using the Enfield was 1.870" whereas the same averaged spread for the heavier flatbased projectile measured in at 1.335". My daughter summed it up best by saying, "Its like if you were to throw a baseball and then throw the baseball bat and end up having the baseball bat do better by going farther, faster and more accurately." I had her repeat what I had done to eliminate any bias and the results where better than mine but still the same regarding the performance of the TMK's, dismally. I do have some 167grn Lapua Scenar-L projectiles that, in appearance look no different than the Sierra MK but perform far more reliably and consistently and yet again, will not produce the desired results that the 180grn Vulkan baseball bat delivers when used in the Enfield. Again, I personally believe it performs better with heavier bullets. Nothing more, nothing less...


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 7:11am
From left to right and in order of performance from good to bad using the 7.62mm barreled Enfield. 
180grn FB Vulkan, 167grn Lapua Scenar-L, 168grn Hornady Secant, 168grn SMk, 168grn TMK Secant. 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 8:23am
With that truncated tip and tangent ogive on the Vulcan, it is much closer to the lands than the TMK at the OALs you are using.  You would need to seat the TMK out past 2.8 in, probably around 2.95 inches to get close enough to the lands in a Long Branch 7.62 barrel to realize the accuracy potential.  Your barrel probably has a lot less rounds thru it than mine, so you may get the TMK close enough to the lands around 2.9 inch OAL. 

The flat base may be helping here too. There is really not much difference in weight from a 168 to a 180 gr, 12 gr, a 7% increase.








Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 10:21am
The accuracy potential is currently there with what is basically a 180grn Norma factory load without having to fiddle about with trying to figure out how close to the rifling i can get before worrying about pressure issues. The 7.62mm Enfield is a shooter and a good one at that but in all honesty, my No4Mk1 Maltby shooting the 200grn D166 7.62x54R bullets will run circles around it hands down.
My initial aim when building the Faux L8A5T was not to create a full house racegun but rather, an all weather rifle. Capable of maintaining consistent accuracy out to a maximum of 200 yards for use in general midsize game hunting applications. The findings from yesterday's shooting session confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt that when using a 180grn brick loaded to standard specifications, the accuracy is well maintained.
As far as accuracy potential goes? My .243W chambered Weatherby Vanguard can make a 12" metal plate dance @1500 yards...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 10:36am
Right.  You have a good load with that 180 gr. and it’s going to fit the bill for your intended purpose.  

It’s that new 168 TMK that is interesting me, for a much different reason.  

For grins, I took a pic of two cartridges, both are seated for OAL magazine length of 2.80 inches.  The issue created by that long pointy TMK bullet with secant ogive becomes quite apparent here.   And, the base of the TMK bullet is also much deeper in the case (by another 0.151 inches) which itself could cause pressure issues near max load.  

The red horizontal line is at the ogive tangent point on the SMK.  Shifting that position over to the TMK is at a point where the TMK bullet diameter is only .293 (vs .308 for the SMK).  That may well explain the mediocre accuracy you noted with the TMK.

When I finally get around to loading these TMKs up for my DCRA, I’ll try and get the bullet between 0.010 to 0.015 off lands, not sure if that will be possible…






Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 10:52am
Another point of contention with me and the 168grn TMK's is the difference in actual bullet weights. Out of a box of 500 I have 220 that weigh exactly 168grn, with 142 weighing between 168.2 - 168.5grns with the remaining weighing between 167.8 - 167.3grns. My only thought on this is that it had something to do with the sectional density of the lead core. At this time, I would gladly trade off for a box of the Sierra 168grn BTHP bullets...


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 11:00am
If I can get the TMK to shoot well, I’ll offer you up a trade.  Not sure when that will be, I’m looking to use it at 800 yds and beyond.  


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 11 2022 at 12:06pm
You might check out the Sierra 165 Gr Gameking HP.
It was the preferred bullet for accuracy in both my M1a Match & my Remington 700.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 6:42am
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

You would need to seat the TMK out past 2.8 in, probably around 2.95 inches to get close enough to the lands in a Long Branch 7.62 barrel to realize the accuracy potential.  Your barrel probably has a lot less rounds thru it than mine, so you may get the TMK close enough to the lands around 2.9 inch OAL. 
The farthest out I can seat both the 180grn Vulkan and the 168grn Sierra TMK without interfering with reliable magazine feeding is 2.830". Anything past that and I end up with a single shot rifle. The same applies to my Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle as well. I did find it intriguing that the C.O.L. for the Military M852 Match round is also 2.830". The potential for improved accuracy is there if I choose to hand feed each round one at a time. There is also the inherent risk of increased chamber pressures the closer the bullets are to the rifling as well and I for one do not intend to destroy a rifle such as this one just to get my groupings a tad closer than they are now. I will however be testing the TMK's this coming weekend to determine if the new C.O.L. has any marked improvements over the old... 


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 7:59am
2.83 probably won't make much difference from 2.80.  However, let us know how it shoots.  

I would not seat further out unless you check with a OAL throat gage first.  No telling what that barrel has for a throat length.  I have checked my CA 7.62 barrel, and the throat is long, even the 175 gr SMK needed to be seated well past magazine length to get even reasonably close to the lands.  As long as you are at least 0.010 off the lands, your not going to destroy the rifle.  And peak pressures will be lower with the bullet seated out further.  But, if you jamb it up into the lands, that's risky...

For my application, I really only can single shot feed the rifle; I'm just looking for target accuracy.  The TMK was designed for that purpose, long range in particular. 



Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 10:29am
This is one of those times that the phrase, "It is what it is" applies spot on. The rifle can and does place projectiles in rather small groups out to distances of no greater than 300 yards and that's really all that matters to me. (The throat on this barrel is .010" longer than my Rugers with both rifles having exactly 775 rounds through them to date.) The target accuracy will have to be relegated to my Japanese made .243W Weatherby Vanguard with the Cold-Forged barrel...


Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 3:11pm
I reckon you have a great combo there.  If you do your part you'll eat well! I live in IL where we cannot use a rifle, we must use a shotgun with slugs.  Even though a slug will humanely take a deer at 150-200 years, I wont shoot that far and my sweet spot being around 50-75 yards.  Hopefully you can draw them into the "other side" of a clearing, about 50 yards away.  I pulled a tag for November, hope I can use it.    Good luck!


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"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus
The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by AussieShooter AussieShooter wrote:

I reckon you have a great combo there.  If you do your part you'll eat well! I live in IL where we cannot use a rifle, we must use a shotgun with slugs.  Even though a slug will humanely take a deer at 150-200 years, I wont shoot that far and my sweet spot being around 50-75 yards.  Hopefully you can draw them into the "other side" of a clearing, about 50 yards away.  I pulled a tag for November, hope I can use it.    Good luck!
I have cousins in and around Bloomington, Cookeville, Ellsworth, and Normal. My one cousin in Ellsworth has a 50 acre patch of land that he takes his deer from when he gets his tag.


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 3:52pm
I worked in Iowa for six months in '07. Got to know the guys at the plant pretty good. Was surprised that they too can only use shotguns in deer season. I asked why and was told safety reasons (hitting a farm house). I looked around... this part of Iowa was as flat as Saskatchewan! You could watch your dog run away for three days! There might have been four farm houses in ten square miles! Some BIG corn fed whitetails though!


Posted By: AussieShooter
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 4:26pm
Yep, you could fire a rifle in Iowa and it would land in Indiana before hitting anything!  I head to southern Illinois where it is actually hilly and the Shawnee forest produces some big white tails!


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"Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges" - Tacitus
The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 7:11pm
i grew up in iowa , never hunted the overabundant deer , but it was always shotgun only , so is the southern third of minnesota because of the populstion density , line occurs right here where i am , south of the east west highway is shotgun north is rifle or shotgun , 


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: July 20 2022 at 7:55pm
I was working in Ft. Dodge, maybe a four hours from Minneapolis? Never went hunting, but almost bagged several deer with the rental vehicle on the way to the plant!


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 21 2022 at 4:43am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:

This is one of those times that the phrase, "It is what it is" applies spot on. The rifle can and does place projectiles in rather small groups out to distances of no greater than 300 yards and that's really all that matters to me. (The throat on this barrel is .010" longer than my Rugers with both rifles having exactly 775 rounds through them to date.) The target accuracy will have to be relegated to my Japanese made .243W Weatherby Vanguard with the Cold-Forged barrel...

I plan to experiment with the 168 TMK, have a box of 500 of these bullets.  I will find out how sensitive they are to seating depth, I expect they will be.

I have 155 Palma MK and 175 TMK loads ready to test at long range.  The 175 TMK is seated at 2.935 inches OAL which gets them 0.030 off the lands.  I suspect the 155 Palma MK won’t shoot well, at 2.850 they are 0.080 off the lands. Could seat them a bit further out, but then starting to lose neck tension on the bullet.

Im not constrained by needed to magazine feed these, only punching holes in paper (or thru the electronic target faces).

I’ve probably got 1000 to 1500 rounds thru this barrel shooting mild loads, so should not have much throat erosion. 




Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 21 2022 at 12:19pm
my family has a branch in ft dodge area , my uncle was postmaster in renwick after his heart attack stopped his farming life , like i said the deer were always abundant , just never hunted them - always pheasants and rabbits and squill oh my ....[sorry ...just slipped out so natural like , 


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: July 21 2022 at 12:42pm
I forgot about the pheasants! Delicious! Guys would bring a bunch in to cook on nights shifts! I'm my opinion, best tasting game bird! We don't have any around here. Some people have tried to establish a "herd" but they don't seem to take. We are getting more and more wild turkeys though... and wild pork!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 21 2022 at 1:03pm
iowa had a great abundance of those growing up , i hunted them all my young life , 

i suspect your winters are too harsh , over the years ive noticed that sleet storms and the blowing ice storms kill off the pheasants , my dad said their beaks would freeze when they got exposed in those storms , predators might have something to do with it too , the chicks are susceptible to raptors and the fox/coyote/wolf/cats , not to mention the weasels , 

iowa had great fence lines for cover and a lot of corn and beans to eat , still does even tho a lot of the fences are gone now the lines were property lines and still exist as hedge/grass lines seperating fields , they are the habitat needed , 

a lot has changed tho , when i was a kid i could walk out the back door shotgun/rifle on my shoulder and start hunting at the end of our property where we quit mowing and the woods started east of the farm fields a short walk away - today if you walked out the back door of the home my father built us in 1956 you would approach that same woods [and ravine that preserves them] but on the other side you would find 100s of acres of homes - they would frown on your rifle/shotgun and call the cops on you , 


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: July 22 2022 at 4:28am
When I was young we had ringnecks everywhere! Walking to school you'd flush 'em(startle the crap outta ya) See 'em dead on the road - hit by car. Now theres none.
We used to hunt rabbits along the Welland canal in the late fall / winter. Now that's all turned residential & park etc.
"Progress" aint all its cracked-up to be!

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 24 2022 at 6:47pm
gotta agree with that sentiment , when i moved here we had pheasants in the yard - there were fields of corn around us , now all have been 'developed' into housing , when i once was on the edge of town in the township we are now annexed and more or less in the center of town , 

my property on a river running through town to the mississippi about eight blocks east of here is till looking remote and parklike but its not like it once was , still have wildlife but not like when i moved here  , the neighbors cats run lose and hunt my wild areas that ive maintained between me and the neighbors property , ive got near 2 1/2 acres so i can do that , a lot of the development around me are less than an acre and fully landscaped , im glad to have what i have but im getting older and less able to take care of it - one day we may need to give it all up , not looking forward to that day at all , 


Posted By: Dragunov
Date Posted: July 24 2022 at 7:29pm
A square 10, here in Florida, if you have at least 1acre, with only one house on it, you can shoot on your land, so long as the bullets don't leave your property. 


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 24 2022 at 8:39pm
that is an issue here - not the bullets leaving the property but the city ordnance against discharging in the city limits , even prohibits BB/pellet guns as well as archery equipment but i know a couple neighbors that ignore the latter prohibition , 

there is a decent natural backstop down at the riverbank but the walking path on the other side makes it real iffy for me to follow suite , i still do on special occasions tho , 
i work at the local gun range part time so i have free use of it - that satisfies the needs , 



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