I have used origional JB bore cleaning compound for some time now and just tried the JB “Bore Bright” paste. The bore bright is a finer paste that puts a mirror finish to the bore to be used after JB Bore Paste. 

I may well do that on my Lithy SMLE.

The bore is clean as a whistle, & rifling looks brand new, but still dark when viewed with the bore-scope.

That bore still looks quite dark in the photo, almost like it was a phosphate finish. It should be bare metal. You might have layers of carbon over copper, I would clean it again with eliminator, repeat until no traces of blue on the patches, then clean with C4. You may need to repeat this a few times. 

The JB will make short work of what ever is in the bore (copper, carbon and lead) and it will be down to bare metal with just one or two applications. When using JB, use a worn bronze brush, work the JB into a patch on the palm of your hand first then wrap it diagonally around the brush, a 1.5 inch x 3 inch patch works good for this. 

 To apply the JB, lay the patch flat in the palm of one hand and use your finger on the other hand with a dab of the JB paste on it, and rub that into the patch. Keep rubbing a bit of JB on your finger then into the patch as necessary. You want to work the JB into the patch to turn it an even gray colour, don’t lay it on thick, just work it into the patch with your finger. Then wrap it around the brush.

Thanks Geoff.

Old Fouling is like a Croissant, layers of one thing with layers of another separating them, but still there.

Sometimes you have to dig down many, many layers treating each one as it surfaces, revealing the next problem from below.

Then you treat that one.

The same as you treated the one above it.

It can be a time consuming & frustrating process.

You just keep digging down to bedrock (the real bore.).

The danger is that moisture is trapped and pitting slowly works its way into the steel. Even worse if corrosive primers were used, the pitting starts almost immediately. 

I'm sorry, why?

What didn't it do that you wanted?

So reading this thread with great interest, I used the described technique on my Martini.

In lieu of JB paste, I used some fine grit valve lapping compound I had on hand. Oil soaked patched the barrel, then proceeded with compound soaked patch wrapped around the brush, 10 strokes, then cleaned with oil soaked patches.

The bore is now in like new condition based on what I can see with a bore light.

When I got the rifle the bore was clean but very dark. I did use my copper/carbon remover goop. Only got a hint of blue on the patches(solvent left in over night), So little or no fouling in that respect.

Very strong  shiny rifling with no pitting.

Next I`ll swage the bore  with a plug of soft lead to see what size the bore is.

Valve compound is much harder than JB.

That stuff is formulated to be harder than copper but softer than steel.

Valve grinding compound is designed specifically to be harder than steel.

This is the muzzle of my .22 tube after just a few seconds of turning a brass bolt coated with valve grinding compound with a slow speed electric screwdriver., to make a new repaired crown.

BEFORE:

 ya I know this, been building engines for as long As I can remember.

I was  in no way overly aggressive and it did what I wanted it to do.

I swaged before and after, both results were .3085ish. So the 10 strokes, in and out 5 times did the trick.

 Bright shiny bore with sharp rifling and no noticeable pitting as viewed using a bore light. Should probably get a bore scope, seems all the rage these days.

Someone had given me a bottle of Sweet's 7.62 Solvent and I tried that.  Essentially, you soak a patch and then scrub the bore for 60 seconds before dry patching.  I was amazed at the difference, with almost all of the copper removed.  I did a second clean and then oiled and put the rifle away, as I was running short on time.  I'm going to scope the bore tonight and then I'll post the before and after pictures.  

Bore Tech Eliminator has made removing copper much more effective and much easier, it’s a combined solvent, will remove powder fouling, copper and most of the carbon.  You will see however that the carbon does tend to gradually built up over time, so that’s when I use the JB, particularly for the first 6 to 8 inches of the bore from the breech end. 

There is an old joke about bore scopes. Some say you’re better off not knowing how bad your barrels are, because then you’ll just worry about them not shooting well.  I never quite bought into that, I did learn that you can’t tell the condition just by looking down the bore with a light at the other end.  

All my No. 4 rifles have some degree of pitting, usually mid way down the barrel. Some worse than others. Except the new Criterion barrel of course. However, none of the new barrels I’ve installed in numerous rifles over the years has ever developed pits, because I won’t put them away fouled. A borescope inspection and proper cleaning ensures that. 

After two one-minute scrubs with Hoppe's in between.

This is in the same section of the copper pipe (err barrel) as the previous picture:

Closer to the throat.

A bit more work to do but the results are promising.  As britrifles said, stripping back one layer reveals more.  

 The Boretech stuff is really expensive here and I know a number of gunsmiths are using Helmar, which is about 1/4 of the price.  I didn't want to rush out and by new products until I knew what my bores were like and also how the products I have on hand performed. 

On a new barrel, breaking it in cleaning between each shot with Sweets and Hoppes will significantly help reduce fouling and be easier to clean. I wished I had known that before I had already shot thousands of rounds thru my Fulton No. 4 with the then new BSA match barrel. 

Hoppes "elite" is a tweaked version of M-Pro-7s copper solvent/remover.

Try this, its non corrosive & zero ammonia.

Swab liberally with the elite, I use 3~4 patches of it, 2 passes each patch.

NO brushing.

Stand muzzle down overnight.

Patch out with dry patches.

Swab out with with Hoppes No9.

Repeat till you get clean patches. (it may take several days the first time round).

I was also given some of the Hoppes foaming bore cleaner and so I had been trying that as well whilst I was cleaning prior to getting the borescope.  Fill the barrel with foam and then leave for a while before scrubbing with a nylon brush and patching out.  The patches came out black after that and then got progressively lighter.

I agree with previous comments about opening up Pandora's box by getting a borescope but until you can see what you have, you are just pushing stuff through the barrel aimlessly.  Now that I can see copper and carbon, I can target those.  I also will have a baseline to work from and I want to get to know what works now, before I buy a new barrel in the future (for this or my other rifles).

Here 4oz (118ml)  of Bore Tech carbon remover will cost about $40 AUD.  125ml of Helmar HD carbon remover will set me back $9 AUD and 500ml (16.9oz) costs $18 AUD.  For that price, I am going to give it a go.  Their copper remover is priced the same.

https://www.helmar.com.au/Helmar-Products/h7000-firearm-bore-cleaner.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.helmar.com.au/Helmar-Products/h7000-firearm-bore-cleaner.html

Crazy the price difference.  Here in the US, the 16 oz bottle of Eliminator runs about $32.  16 oz lasts quite a long time, so not a significant cost.  

Took a look for the Helmar bore cleaner, doesn't appear to be available in the US.  I wonder if it is essentially the same composition as Eliminator.    

No idea on the composition but will let you know when I get some.  

Since I wrote this post, I’ve come across several articles on cleaning bores with JB. Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels posted some photos of a bore that was apparently deeply grooved by cleaning it with a bronze brush and JB applied to a patch wrapped around the brush. The lands looked pretty bad. Perhaps a steel brush was used? 

I’ve used this cleaning method for some time now on multiple rifle barrels to no ill effect, but I want to pass this new information on. I suspect the key is the use of a worn bronze brush to minimize the pressure the bristles put on the lands. And don’t brush more than necessary, 5 to 10 strokes then check the bore. 

My advice is to use a borescope to watch progress and don’t get overly aggressive with it. Watch for any signs of scratching/grooves on the lands.  I clean with JB about every 500 rounds. 

Next time I clean the bore with JB on my Service Rifle, I’m going to try a tight fitting patch on a PH style jag and borescope to see how effective it is. This is the method that Frank recommends. 

There is a lot of controversy in using brushes (even nylon) in rifle bores from barrel makers. Some say never do it. Some say it can’t harm the barrel, even a bronze brush. But perhaps JB and aggressively scrubbed with a bronze brush could cause this damage. 

I spoke to an Aussie friend the other day who old me that some Aussie target shooters use Autosolv on their barrels. 

Autosolv has been sold in the UK for years mainly for motorcycle enthusiasts to keep their engines shiny...this is not a recommendation by the way, rather a sharing of information.

Given the price difference of JB paste versus Autosolv in the UK I can quite see why people have experimented with other products. 

I've heard stories of people attaching an electric drill to a section of cleaning rod with brush attached to try and get the carbon out!  That would not end well.  

I had just finished cleaning both my AR's with JB on patch wrapped around the worn bronze brush, so won't need to clean again with JB for several months.  I've shot the AR twice since then, and it still hammers.  Its soaking right now with Hoppes 9 in the bore (my routine cleaning method), once I dry that out I plan to go borescope it again and look very closely for any signs of scratching/grooves on the lands.  I'll also check the bore with pin gages and measure throat length.  This barrel has been cleaned with JB with bronze brush/patch at least 5 times now.  

This! 

Although I found the VFG adapter a bit of a fiddle with the small nut; the Brownells adapter on the other hand is slightly thicker and I believe it did a better job giving slightly more friction on the bore. 

I assume the old armorer’s tale of JB causing wear is erroneous?

I was lectured that JB is as abrasive as a lapping compound and can damage a bore by rounding off the edges of the rifling?  I imagine it’s use is common sensical that a little goes a long ways and not to over do it?      

Is it safe for a chrome lined barrel and chamber?

I think there would be less chance of rounding the corners of the rifling by using a PH type jag vs a brush. What I liked about the bronze brush is it cleaned the grooves too, and all the carbon trapped into the corners of the grooves.

Chrome is harder than normal barrel steel, so should not be as susceptible to wear. 

I measured the bore on my AR Service Rifle and could not detect any wear. 0.2180+ pin gage just fit with no play. 

Removing copper was unheard of then and apart from oil we had no other type of wet cleaner to dislodge carbon deposits. 

Hot water was occasionally used in training after firing blanks... but only occasionally.

I shudder at the thought of the state of my barrel handing it back into the armoury all those years ago! 

After reading Frank Green’s (from Bartlein Barrels) article on cleaning the bore with JB on a patch wrapped around a bronze brush causing severe damage in the form of deep grooves/scratches, I decided to back off cleaning with JB for a while.  Looking thru the log book, I found that it had been over 1000 rounds since I last cleaned the carbon out of the Bartlein barrel on my AR Service Rifle.

Following the November Talladega 600 Matches, I thought it was time for a deep cleaning on the AR. I had only done what I call “routine cleaning” after every shoot over the past 1000 rounds (6 months of shooting this rifle).  That is patching out the bore with Hoppes 9, let it soak 12 hours, then wipe again with Hoppes 9 and repeat for a few days.  This time, I followed Frank’s recommendation to use a PH style jag with JB on a patch. I use an 1.5x3 inch patched wrapped around the jag. About 20 strokes in the throat and first 8 inches of bore forward of the chamber. That removed about 90% of the dark hard carbon based on borescope images.  

I did this cleaning the week before the final EIC Service Rifle Match of the year that I’ve recently posted on. But, I knew enough to “never come to a match with a clean barrel”.  Now, that doesn’t mean show up with a fouled barrel either. It means don’t show up with a squeaky clean bore from using JB when you haven’t used it for six months and 1000 rounds!  Now I know why…

So, I took the rifle to the Talladega range last Friday, the day before the match, to make sure I had solid zero’s for the EIC Match (which allows NO SIGHTERS). To my surprise, the zero’s were off, by 1 MOA at short range and 2 MOA at 600 yds.  The muzzle velocities were also lower, by 80 fps for my 600 yard load. I would not have won that match on Saturday if I had not found this out on Friday. 

So what happened? 

At first, I thought it was the cold weather, it was 34 deg F that morning.  But N135 and N140 is supposed to be quite temp stable.  It then occurred to me it must have been hard carbon building up in the throat and first few inches of rifling that was providing a tighter gas seal around the bullet. The result was a gradual increase in muzzle velocity over time that was not detected. This theory explains why my elevation settings had been gradually coming down over the last 6 months, I had to reset the elevation turret a few times back to “0” index at 200 yards.  Then with the carbon cleaned out, the muzzle velocities dropped and elevation settings had to go back up to compensate. 

We don’t normally get more velocity without also increasing pressure, but I doubt an 80 fps increase in velocity is creating dangerous chamber pressures unless the load was at max to begin with, and that was not the case.

So, I’m now going back to cleaning the throat with JB about every 300-400 rounds, and watch for any change in 600 yard elevation zero. But, it will be on a patch wrapped around a Parker Hale jag (at 90 degrees to the jag, not diagonally and not on a bronze brush. 

At the other extreme are the bench rest shooters who clean after every round with bronze brushes.  And they junk a barrel after a few hundred rounds max (no wonder).   All depends on what level of accuracy and repeatability you are looking for.  

He said it worked every time. I guess the ammonia in piss neutralize the corrosive powder remains. 

I next asked how to you clean artillery?

With great difficulty using that method! 

The piss would dissolve copper fouling, so not a bad idea. The hot water would flush out the salts left by the corrosive primer and neutralize the piss.  Oil the bore prevents pitting/rust from the high humidity and rain.  They had it figured out long ago….now we pay $40 for a bottle of “solvent”.  

But, in some seriousness, the average infantry soldier only concerned themselves with reliable function and “minute of man” accuracy out to 200 yards, rarely beyond that. Now we come along 80 years later and want to shoot 10 inch X rings at 1000 yards…so we have to pay attention to the minutia of variables to achieve that.  And we don’t have a source of cheap new barrels either.

The two pitted No. 4 barrels I have (DCRA 7.62 and No. 4 T)  I’m fairly certain were a result of ineffective cleaning and sitting for many years in our humid basement in Cornwall, Ontario.  Those were new barrels my Dad had fitted.  These bores have a “etched” surface on the grooves.  Fortunately, they are not bad enough to really have much affect on accuracy. 

Hoadie, you are twenty five months older than me.

What always "got me" was the Firearms Sgt. staring at your thumbnail down the bore To proclaim it "clean & shiny", or "did you  forget to weed that bore? Get yer bl**dy thumbnail cleaned"! after the 3 wet, 3 dry, 1 oil" regimen.

Some time ago I started into the routing off cleaning with Sweets and JB bore paste. Initially I tried the red because I was cautious about understanding any abrasive properties that would contribute to damage unwittingly on my behalf.

A few years ago I picked up a very small tub of the grey. What I was able to determine was an almost immediate noticeable impact on repeatability for some of my hunting rifles using just the red only.

I used very sparingly only a little bit of the compound on some quality bore patches wrapped around an undersized bore brush. When I started cleaning with Kroil in between bouts is when I could honestly say I understood a marked improvement in accuracy especially with hunting rifles that had only been cleaned with ordinary bore cleaners and traditional measures I had frequently used in the past.

I think I could honestly say that the Jb products are one of the very few products that actually worked as intended or advertised regardless of what sort of merchandise or task specific purpose for what I was intending to accomplish in my life.

Even though I purchased the grey, more than any other time I usually pull the red out because a little bit will go a long way at least for how Ive been using it. Over time I accumulated multiple undersized bronze brushes, wore out would be the correct term that I maintain in a small plastic container in my tool chest.

That patch will come out black as coal even in a well maintained arm. If you ever cleaned a new Browning marked rifle and saw that rust like fouling that comes out of the bore JB will remove it. I suspect that's residue from whatever powders they use in proofing or test firing. Its very difficult to remove what ever it may be. JB will clear it right out before firing at home and for first trip to the range.

Reduced fouling for random use like hunting is probably the best benefit I get out of it. One oily patch or so usually does the trick and mirror brite results which reduces cleaning effort and potential damaging effects over time is what I think overall.

I’ve got both grey and red JB. Can’t say I’ve found differences in them yet, I have not used the red nearly as much, supposed to be a finer grade of polish. 

Your results seem to be consistent with mine as evidenced by borescope images and results on the target. I had also used a worn bronze brush with a patch wrapped around it and a light smear of JB until recently.  After just several uses, the brush wears down to groove diameter. I think it’s using a new brush with JB there is some risk with some barrels to put scratches/grooves in the lands.  That’s something I don’t want to take a chance on, so I now use a Parker Hale jag.

I can’t see a lot of difference in the borescope images between using a brush and using a PH jag when they are both used with a patch wrapped around them. The brush may clean to the corners of the grooves a bit better than the jag. 

The Kroil seems to be a necessary component to this. I wet the bore with Kroil on a patch first. Then with a clean patch, put a bit of Kroil on it then rub a small dab of JB into the patch on the palm of my hand then wrap it around the jag. This makes a tight cylinder shape fitting the bore snugly.  10 to 20 strokes and the patch comes out black and the barrel is very clean. Then clean the bore of all JB with patches and more Kroil.  The throat needs the most attention with JB. Just a few passes the full length of the barrel is sufficient, then 10 to 15 more for the first 6 to 8 inches of barrel in front of the chamber. 

As they say, the devil is in the details. But, the key to success is also in the details….

I add Kroil to Hoppes 9 for regular cleaning, about 1 part Kroil to 3 parts Hoppes.  Still won’t remove hard carbon though. 

I run a dry turbo brush (brass loops rather than bristles) through a few times first and then follow up with some Hoppe's number 9 and a three dry patches.  Depending on the colour of the patches, I then use Helmar carbon remover and/or Helmar copper remover.  Finish with a wet mop of G96 and back into the safe they go.

I only use the Ioso paste if my method above doesn't return clean patches within 3-5 dry patches after the solvents have been used.

By “hard carbon” I mean the dark grey/black carbon coating on the lands and grooves in the first few inches of bore forward of the chamber. This area gets exposed to a combination of high pressures and high temps and the carbon gets “ironed in” by the bullet as well. Think of how diamonds are formed.   Boretech C4 was the most effective carbon remover solvent for the bore I have tried , except that it just wouldn’t get that “hard carbon” out of the throat where it has the most affect. 

I wouldn’t think there would be any problem using a nylon brush with bore paste. 

A friend of mine has had good results with using Ioso paste on a chamber brush to remove the hard carbon ring.  

First two patches when I got home, let it soak overnight. 

Third patch the next morning, the green is light copper fouling. 

Fourth patch 24 hours after the shoot, not much fouling came out

Fifth a dry patch, looked fairly clean. 

At this point, I would normally wet the bore with Hoppes and put the rifle away muzzle down. If I had more time, I might repeat the above cleaning process for one more day. 

I talked to Frank Green, and I talked to Iosso who makes the Thorroclean products for "Bullet Central". Iosso said the Iosso paste with Kroil or practically any other type oil is the precurser to the Thorroclean system. After back & forth conversations with both Frank and Iosso it was conceeded that you can safely use the product with the correct technique. Like, no harm bronze brushes, bore guide, coated cleaning rod and a bit of regard to straight/controlled passes with the rod. 

The key is to keep the paste suspended in liquid as it's being used in the bore. So, the Thorroclean is Iosso paste suspended in a solution and also used in conjunction with a flush system that further suspends/keeps wet the paste. I am not embellishing here, 20-25 passes with this no odor system and in 5 mins total time, the bore is outstanding. Whatever copper is left in the barrel after this cleaning I just leave it in there. It's filling the micro cracks! 

I also use one caliber larger brush per bore size to hit the carbon ring at the same time as the bore cleaning.