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Lee Enfield MLE MK1? - Found in Dad's Attic

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Topic: Lee Enfield MLE MK1? - Found in Dad's Attic
Posted By: mrdibbles
Subject: Lee Enfield MLE MK1? - Found in Dad's Attic
Date Posted: September 03 2011 at 10:23pm
Hey Guys-
My Dad asked me over yesterday to help him pull some stuff from the attic at his house and one of the things he was planning to discard was this "Wall Hanger" of a Lee Enfield.  Of course I volunteered to hang the bad boy on my wall and immediately put it in my trunk knowing I could get more infrmation here.
 
The rifle was given to my Dad cerca 1972 while he worked at the US Embassy in Paraguay South America.  It's been in dry storage ever since but clearly for many years prior it had not been well taken care of.
 
The rifling looks sharp and deep with a few areas of minor pitting.  The barrel has turned mostly to brown with some areas where the blue remains.  The stock is rough because Paraguayan termites long ago had chosen this rifle as a refuge.
 
Anyway here are a few pictures taken quickly with my cell phone.  I'd love your insights into how I can date this rifle, if I should stictly keep her as a "wall hanger" or hope for something more, and so on.
Thanks,
Matt-
 
 
 
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 04 2011 at 1:59am
Additional Photos:
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: September 04 2011 at 3:31am
Have a qualified gunsmith check it out and testfire it if called for.
 
If given by a military source they may have considered it unserviceable by their standards but it could still be safe to shoot with ammunition suited to it.
The MkVI and earlier .303 cartridges had a lower working pressure than the WW1 era MkVII and MkVIIIz cartridges.
This rifle was probably proofed for a working pressure of 16.5 Long Tons rather than the 18.5 LT of later .303 Enfields.
 
Some have used the more energetic MkVII and MKVIIIz in these older rifles, but why risk it, especially since even if safe to fire the rifle may show some degradation. I'd baby it with the lowest pressure ammo that meets original MkVI ammunition performance.


Posted By: saffer
Date Posted: September 04 2011 at 3:48am

On initial inspection, I thought that was a SMLE No1 MK1 owing to the magazine cut off, but the barrel does not look right for a SMLE, and could bea lee metford.

Anyone else agree or disagree.



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Not a complete idiot. Still missing a few parts.


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 04 2011 at 4:21am
I appreciate the responses thus far.  Also in the collection which my Dad brought back from South America (back in the early 70's) were these two Winchester carbines (below).  The bottom one is a 44-40 Trapper and was in similar condition to this Lee Enfield.  The top Carbine's a 38-80 (also a Saddle Ring) and I had both restored by a renowned cowboy gun expert.  The question on this Lee Enfield is "Is she also worth saving" or is she more of a relic that should serve out her years raising eyebrows in the barn above the workbench?
 


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: September 04 2011 at 5:29am
Nice find !!!

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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: September 04 2011 at 6:38am

Due to the lack of markings on the butt socket, I believe it is a commercial model, i.e not made for the military. That does not mean that it has not seen military service though.

That shape of the Knox form is right for a long lee enfield.
As far as dating it, someone who knows about serial numbers might be able to help with that.
Good score.


Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: September 04 2011 at 8:45am
Enfields of that vintage are very rare. It is hard to give a value because there are so many variables but it is worth atleast $500 in the U.S. perhaps even twice that.

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Have a Nice Day
If already having a nice day please disregard


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: September 04 2011 at 10:08am
Worth it !!  I would restore it if You have the means !!! even if its a looker on the wall ..still ya dont see them on every other wall today !!!  so ......



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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: September 05 2011 at 2:53am
Try Ballistol on the brown parts of the steel before considering any refinishing.
The rifle will retain more value as is than refinished in any case.
 
Ballistol has a way of drawing rust out of the surface and usually leaves the remaining oxidation deactivated and turned dark or even black to blend with remaining bluing.
 
Some older bluing formulas used cyanide and this type bluing can penetrate deeper into the surface of steel. I've seen bright polished cyanide blued steel turn black overnight if the original chemicals went deep enough and were exposed to air once more.
 
Many older rifles and shotguns I've cleaned with ballistol showed far more original bluing intact under a fine layer of brown rust than you would imagine.
For crusty spots I use a popcycle stick to gently scrape away softened rust scabs without marring the steel.
 
If the surface is kept wet with balistol between cleanings brown rust continues to break loose over time, even long after the surface looks clear of rust.
 
Bluing is a controled rusting to begin with. A crust of rust would be carded off after the initial dunking in the mildly corrosive solutions.
If done carefully the same process can make brown rust into a part of the finish.
 
As for the stock, it looks mostly intact.
You might leave as is or have some patching in and filling done.
I don't think anything needs to be replaced, but minor repairs shouldn't affect value if properly done.
 
PS
I would carefully remove the stock, especially the fore end, and cheack for rusting away under the wood.
In tropical climes sweat from the hands can migrate under the wood at the carry point and cause hidden corrosion. The salt in sweat doesn't go away so any moisture drawn from the air can continue the rusting process for decades.


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: September 05 2011 at 2:59am
I may have to get some Ballistol , never heard of it before .... I have several Rifles I could give it a try on .....



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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: yoeri
Date Posted: September 05 2011 at 3:03am
when you don't like it .... ;)


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si vis pacem parabelum


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: September 05 2011 at 3:11am
The Ballistol I found at Mid Way is an oil/penetrate oil , The reviews talk about using it on black powder fire arms .
Sounds pretty good though .  

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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: September 05 2011 at 6:24am
Ballistol is great stuff, some nearly non toxic that its recommended for use in restaruants for cleaning meat cutting machines.
 
IIRC its an outgrowth of German WW2 powder solvents for use on any type of firearm or cannon.
 
It doesn't have much lubricity, but leaves a protective layer with some lubrication power.
I've been told it should not be used on a HK auto loader, and can cause jams if used on that and some other autoloaders.
Works fine with bolt actions though.
 
The first time I ran across it the translated German label reccommended it for use as an emergency wound cleaner and disinfectant for hunting dogs and horses. 
 
When used to clean black powder weapons it should be mixed with water.
 


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 08 2011 at 7:07am
Wow! That's a great find. You wrote: "The rifle was given to my Dad cerca 1972 while he worked at the US Embassy in Paraguay South America."  I can only imagine how this rifle got to Paraguay and what adventures it has seen! The only way it would be a wall-hanger is if a gunsmith certified it as unsafe for some reason. As a collectible, it's a desirable piece, even though it's a little banged up.

I've been researching these commercial Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields (a.k.a Lee-Speeds) for some years now. Please send me a PM so I can send you my rifle survey. Every bit of info is big help to my project!

Looks like you've got a rifle made by the Birmingham Small Arms Company according to the Magazine Lee Enfield MkI* pattern. BSA made rifles on government contract for the British military, and also made them for private sale (service patterns like yours for volunteers, rifle clubs, competitive target shooters, and sporting versions for hunters) and private contract to foreign governments. You can tell a commercial version by its lack of government markings and lack of a date (on the right side of the butt socket it just says "BSA Co."). From what I can see in your photos, yours left the factory in Birmingham sometime between 1905 and 1914. Maybe we can learn more:

1) Does the bayonet lug have a hole drilled in it for a clearing rod?
2) Is there a channel cut in the forearm wood for a clearing rod?
3) Is there anything stamped on the top-rear flat part of the action (where the bolt slides in)? (You need to lift up the bolt handle to see).
4) Can you please post a pic of the LEFT side of the action, where the barrel meets the receiver). We need to see the stamps there.
5) If you plan to remove the wood (I assume you are going to clean the whole thing, remove rust, etc), there might be markings underneath the barrel that could tell us more about when this rifle was made and where it's been.    BE CAREFUL: Just in case you are new to Lee Enfields, always remove the fore-end wood BEFORE you remove the butt stock! This is a good general rule to follow when disassembling any Enfield. If you remove the butt first, you risk splitting the wood. Also, be very careful when removing the top hand guard....this part is easily split. Unfortunately, some of the most useful stamps are found underneath this piece.

More pics are always a good thing.

Who knows what adventures these commercial Lee Enfields have seen? Some may have spent their long and cherished lives commuting between a garage gun cabinet and the local rifle range. Others might well have potted wild beasts on the veldt, or accompanied some explorer across central Africa or the Asian steppes, or chased Von Lettow-Vorbeck and his Askaris across East Africa in 1915. Your own rifle may yet have more adventures ahead of it. Others have owned this rifle over the past century, but you are now its temporary custodian. If it's mechanically sound, I say give it some TLC, use it well and pass it on someday to someone who will appreciate it. It might well outlive us all.




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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 08 2011 at 1:02pm
more pictures and closer details will net you more info


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 09 2011 at 4:53am
Here are some additional pictures.  As you'll see there are no indications that this would have taken a cleaning rod.  No indention in the bottom of the stock and no hole in the bayonet lug.  Additionally on the left side of the receiver there aren't any markings at all.  Still having trouble identifying this as an MLE or a Lee-Metford so your help there is much appreciated.  Seems likely to be a commercial model... thanks for everything guys Big smile
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: September 09 2011 at 5:16pm
My FIRST thought was a "Long" Lee..maybe a transitional model?
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 10 2011 at 3:14am
It is definitely a "Long Lee" (a generic, informal term for the the Magazine Lee Metford and Magazine Lee Enfield rifles that predated the 1902 SMLE (Short, Magazine Lee Enfield...where "short" refers to the length of the rifle not the magazine).

It is definitely a commercial model....meaning it was purposely built for private sale (not for the British Government). However  it was built by the same people (BSA), on the same machinery, to the same specifications as the rifles that were made for government contracts. The only difference is that it has commercial markings instead of government markings. The fit, finish, and performance on these commercial models did not suffer in comparison to the military models---if anything, it was better. Customers had all sorts of options to choose from, such as special nickel steel, custom sights, type of rifling, special bedding, high grade wood. 

Although many of these commercial models saw service in various corners of the world, most of them did not get dragged through 4 years of Flanders mud and barbed wire, so they often appear on today's collector market in better condition than their surplus brethren. Too often, however, they are not recognized as commercial models, and the sporter versions are often confused with "bubbas" (hard to believe but true).

There were some minor differences between the government and commercial models (a story I am working hard to tell), mainly because BSA did not have to chance their commercial models every single time the War Office asked for some minor change to the service pattern. You will sometimes find things on trade patterns that had been removed from service rifles some years previously.  (This does not make them transitional models, just commercial variants.) This makes dating and identifying these commercial rifles a real b**ch....er, I mean, lots of fun! You can say it was built on the MLE MkI* service pattern, but it's not really correct to call it that. It would be like calling a Colt AR-15 Sporter an M-16.

...
Thanks for the additional pics! Can you also please post pics of the following:
1)  the top-rear flat part of the action (where the bolt slides in)? (You need to lift up the bolt handle to see).
2) Can you please post a pic of the LEFT side of the action, where the barrel meets the receiver). We need to see the stamps there.

Maybe we can learn more about this rifle with those pics.

Thanks!


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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 10 2011 at 4:23am
Originally posted by Jc5 Jc5 wrote:


You can say it was built on the MLE MkI* service pattern, but it's not really correct to call it that. It would be like calling a Colt AR-15 Sporter an M-16.

 Just to follow up, since you said you were "having trouble identifying this as an MLE or a Lee-Metford"... Keeping in mind what I said above, if you needed to describe it, you could say "It's a BSA commercial model of the Magazine Lee Enfield Mark I*."  The (*) is pronounced "star." And BSA stands for Birmingham Small Arms, the company in Small Heath, Birmingham, England that made these rifles for the British Government, and for private sale.

On these rifles, "Enfield" versus "Metford" refers to the type of rifling. Enfield rifling has 5 grooves. Metford rifling has 7 grooves and is much shallower (people often look at Metford rifling and assume it is "shot out" but it ain't so---it was designed this way).  Most (not all!) rifles with Enfield-pattern rifling have the letter "E" stamped on top of the barrel knox. Don't rely on this though, just look down the bore and count the grooves.

Let's those additional pics & maybe we can learn more about your rifle.


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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: olskool
Date Posted: September 10 2011 at 7:31am
on the winchester you had to mean 38-40 not 38-80

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jesus is lord of all or he is not lord at all!


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 10 2011 at 8:10am
yes... that was a typo.  The Winchester is a 38-40 without a doubt.


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 10 2011 at 12:25pm
Thank you for all the replies... I'll add some additional photos tomorrow.  Thanks guys!


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: September 10 2011 at 12:42pm
Not all Enfields had 5 grooves
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: September 10 2011 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by hoadie hoadie wrote:

Not all Enfields had 5 grooves
Hoadie
True of the No.4 rifles, which had anything from two to six grooves, but the older Lee Enfield and SMLE had five groove bores only so far as I've heard.
The Two Groove and Six groove bores would not be considered Enfield Pattern rifling, only five groove bores with lands the same width as the grooves would be considered Enfield Pattern.
 
Some modern Sniper and Long Range Target rifle barrels use a very similar rifling, with added features such as radiused corners or raked groove walls to reduce blowby. 


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 11 2011 at 10:21am
Additonal photos... also... got word from Ian Skennerton that he thinks this is a Commercial MLE MK1*.  No idea on date but his identification seems in line with other's ideas. 
 
 


Posted By: Beerhunter
Date Posted: September 11 2011 at 7:47pm
I'd agree that it is a BSA Commercial.  My reasoning is the civilian pre-1954 Birmingham Proof marks plus the lack lack of Government marks.


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 4:17am
Thanks for the additional pics! Can you also please post pics of the following:
1)  the top-rear flat part of the action (where the bolt slides in)? (You need to lift up the bolt handle to see).

Also, are there any markings beneath the top handguard? From one of your pictures in the first batch it looks like you removed it at some point? A pic of that location, or at least a description will be very useful.

...

Also, to the forum moderator: what is up with all this "Pending Approval" stuff in order to post? None of the other Lee Enfield forums on the Web require this much hassle just to have a simple discussion. The delay is a pain, and is discouraging to someone who posts a lot of the other forums but would like to contribute more to this one.


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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 9:09am
im in agreement long MLM mkII*/MLE of mkI [depending on bbl rifleing] variety and commercial version BSA  , 1895-end of MLM/start of MLE , CLLM/CLLE conversions 1907,
there is a diference in location of the handguard rivets - early ones were farther apart - later ones were pushed forward and closer together [front half of the guard] yours looks to be later version ,   
 
nice find , bolt cover is often missing - nice bit to have , these were later fitted with charger bridge to make the CLLM/CLLE , nice to see that not done as well from my humble point of view ,
 
takes the P1888 bayonet ,


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 11:10am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

im in agreement long MLM mkII*/MLE of mkI [depending on bbl rifleing] variety and commercial version BSA  , 1895-end of MLM/start of MLE , CLLM/CLLE conversions 1907,
there is a diference in location of the handguard rivets - early ones were farther apart - later ones were pushed forward and closer together [front half of the guard] yours looks to be later version ,   

The original poster's rifle cannot be the MLM MkII*/MLE MkI pattern because it has no provision in the fore-end or nosecap for the clearing rod. It is a commercial BSA rifle of the MLE MkI* pattern, as has been noted several times already.

Also, be cautious when trying to apply military service dates to commercial rifles. Official military changes (e.g., "adopted in 1895,"or "made obsolete in 1902" etc) have very little relevance for commercial models made for private sale. BSA offered a .303 carbine years before the British military adopted one, and they continued making Lee Metfords (and Martinis for that matter) for years after they had been "replaced" in British service.


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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 11:12am
Jc5: I'm not a moderator..but I can shed some light.
We've had a few problems with individuals recently.The ONLY way to preserve the integrity of the forum, is thus.
Personally-I'm in agreement with it.(I'm sure you would be as well, if you had've experienced the problems we had.
Please be patient..its in ALL our best interests.
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: Eric
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 1:04pm
Jc5, I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but hoadie is correct, we have had many issues with spam from China this year. the post approval is only required for new members. I have loosened up the requirements today. Up to 10 posts requires admin approval.

Eric


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 12 2011 at 3:38pm
OK, I understand. I will be patient, and I hope you get the issues sorted out. This forum is always a fun one, but although I've "lurked" here as an observer for several years, I always end up posting on the other Lee Enfield forums. The easier it is to post, the more traffic you will get. Anyway, I completely understand the responsibilities you must assume when administrating a forum, and I support you 100%.

...

Now if we can get a good look at the markings under the handguard of mrdribble's rifle, maybe we can narrow down the date.

Thanks to A Square 10 for reminding us that the bolt cover is missing on this rifle. Too bad, but not a "deal breaker" (though I wonder what happened to it?), because replacements are not hard to find. Of course, finding a commercial one will be darn near impossible, but an ex-military one shouldn't be too hard, usually from $30 to $50, and it adds to the aesthetic appeal of the rifle. I would try to find one made by BSA, and call it good enough. (A military BSA bolt cover will be marked with a "crown over B" view mark---see Skennerton for details). 




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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 2:40am
Sorry for the delay in providing additional pictures.  The only markings under the handguard (on either side) are shown in these photos:
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 7:09am
Weird....

Three questions:

1) Are you certain there's not any mark on the left-hand side? Not even a faded one?

2) What about the top-rear flat part of the action where the bolt slides in? Is anything stamped there? See attached photo for the location I mean.

3) Anything marked on the bolt handle?

With those questions answered I will check your rifle against the ones in my notes and see if we can get a more precise date.

Thanks! 




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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 10:37am
I don't see anything on the left side of the flat area behind/under the bolt.  Here are the photos though...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
To be fair too the photos I sent to Ian Skennerton were rudamentary in comparison to these detail shots.  Looks like a MLE Mk1 though and he'd be the one to say so (even with poor photos) :)
 
Thanks again for the additional help on this... would love to know more about this rifle.
Regards,
Matt-


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 11:23am
Additional photos... finally breaking out the better camera :)  This one's a scanning electron microscope in comparison to the camera phone (which was doing pretty good for a camera phone).
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 11:55am
Close ups of left side of receiver:
 
 


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by mrdibbles mrdibbles wrote:

 
To be fair too the photos I sent to Ian Skennerton were rudamentary in comparison to these detail shots.  Looks like a MLE Mk1 though and he'd be the one to say so (even with poor photos) :)


As we have said several times already, it is not an MLE MkI....First, because it is a commercial model....only the government models have model designations like that. There is no model designation stamped anywhere on your rifle---if it were property of the British Government it would have the sovereign's cipher, a date, and the model designation.  The other reason it is not an MLE MkI is because the MLE MkI had a fore-end channel and a nose-cap hole for a clearing rod---yours does not, so it is based on the MLE MkI* pattern (pronounced MLE "Mark One Star"). The MLE MkI* (with the star) replaced the MLE MKI in service in 1899. The difference was that they eliminated the clearing rod and all provision for it. BSA eliminated the clearing rod on their commercial rifles shortly after the military did.

I am checking your rifle against the database of commercial rifles for which I have certain dates. It's not all computerized so this means I have to manually look stuff up and compare. Give me just a bit of time and I'll post what I find.

Thanks again for posting those pics. The level of detail is very good! Every bit of info I can gather on these commercial rifles is very helpful to my project, so again, thanks very much and I hope I can offer something useful on it.



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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 2:01pm
Also, is there anything stamped on the buttplate tang?


Do you plan to remove the fore-end for cleaning, as LE Owner recommended in his post above? If you do, a pic of any markings under the barrel would be really helpful.

Thanks again!


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 13 2011 at 9:36pm
Thanks for clarifying the (based on the) MLE MkI* designation piece.  I totally get it now.  At present I don't have plans to remove the stock but that's more due to the thousand other things I have going on that are consuming my free time.  I know I need to get to that to properly clean the weapon but in the meantime I've preserved it as best I can.  Please let me know if you discover an additional details on the date or anything else.
 
BTW... my Dad relayed some more detail about this rifle.  He said be bought it off an officer in the Paraguayan Army (cerca 1972).  He was told that after WWI Argentina procured a large number of these style weapons and had the barrels rebored to a caliber that the Argentine military had stndardized on.  At the time he was told by the Paraguyan Army officer that this was likely how this rifle made it's way into Paraguay (through Argentina).  Of course this is all second hand information, it can't be treated as the gospel, but it's interesting nonetheless.


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 12:28am
Yes, that is interesting! Thanks for sharing the story. Even second hand myths can be useful and provide some grain of truth. Tom Gresham said once that every gun owner should take a few minutes to sit down and write the story of each gun: where you got it, what you did with it, anything you changed, fixed or replaced...and then you pass along this written paper with the gun when you sell it or give it to your kids. I like this suggestion because guns are more than just hunks of metal and wood...they are stories. One hundred years ago, did the BSA workers who assembled this rifle imagine that we would be discussing it, trying to figure it out and where it's been? Well, 50 or 100 years from now, that paper you wrote on the gun will be valuable to the person who owns it. Your story about your dad in Paraguay already makes this rifle more interesting than an anonymous one picked up at a gun show. Know what I mean?

Having said that, collectors know that you never should buy the story, only the gun! But the story adds to the fun.

Regarding the Argentina to Paraguay story, the reboring doesn't sound like it would be worth the cost, but anything's possible.

Does your rifle appear to rebored? 
Does it have 5 or 7 grooves?
Is there anything stamped on the buttplate tang?

Right now, all  I can offer is that it left the BSA factory between 1905 and 1914 (not a bad era to be born if you are a Lee Enfield! They made great rifles in those years. Later economizing had not yet been implemented). As I double check it against others I have logged and so forth, I hope to get that date a bit more precise.

The V/13 stamp is puzzling. My first thought is "Volunteer" followed by some arbitrary unit designation.I can't say that I've never seen it before, but I know it is not common. If I had seen it several times on a commercial rifle I would remember it. Most inspection and view marks follow a different format.

It could be: 1) a private factory inspection mark. ("V" stands for "view"). This is unlikely but possible.
2) an identification of a volunteer unit, of what country we don't know. It doesn't match anything in "The Broad Arrow." Most volunteer marks follow a different format. Maybe there's something to that story about service in the Argentine military...! Still, if it were served out to some military or paramilitary unit (let's suppose they were running short of Mausers), I would think it would be marked differently, or in more places, like the butt stock. 

Anyone have ideas on this?

..


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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 12:45am

I wonder if my Dad remembers the story wrong and the V = Venezuela and the 13 = 1913?  Just a thought.  I'll check the butt plate tang when I get home but I don't think anythings there.  Is there a good set of instructions out there on how to remove the wood?  Maybe i'll do it this weekend if I can be made comfortable with the process.  I am mechanical not not a gunsmith.



Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 14 2011 at 6:13am
BTW... looks like 5 grooves and there are no markings on the butt plate tang.


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: September 15 2011 at 7:38pm

Found this on the BSA site

Quote Prior to 1905 all work undertaken by BSA was for UK and Foreign Government contracts, no commercial work was undertaken.

So this rifle is from a military contract rather than a civilian purchase , at least from the company.
Military weapons could be bought from stores run for the purpose, but I think you had to be a serving or reserve military personel to buy directly from those stores. IIRC these were called "Army-Navy" stores. The term Army-Navy Store was often used by military surplus outlets here in the U S A.
 
It was common for armies that used the Maxim or Vickers MG in .303 caliber to arm gun crews with .303 chambered rifles even if the standard infantry rifle was chambered for a different cartridge.
Post WW1 thousands of Vickers guns were sold off by the British, these were in .303 of course.
The Maxim and Browning MGs could be bought in just about any rifle caliber chambering, but the Vickers only came in .303.
Eastern European users of the surplus Vickers guns usually armed gun crews with P-14 rifles from the same source. A .303 version of the Mauser was developed for this purpose, but only a single prototype is known to exist. It used a floor plate and magazine box developed by Rigby for their sporting rifles that used rimmed or belted cartridges.


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 16 2011 at 2:21am
Originally posted by LE Owner LE Owner wrote:

Found this on the BSA site

Quote Prior to 1905 all work undertaken by BSA was for UK and Foreign Government contracts, no commercial work was undertaken.


With all due respect to the gentleman who wrote that (I respect him), that statement is not entirely correct. He's assuming that the first BSA commercial product was the War Office Miniature rifle (1905). But BSA made, marketed, and sold commercial versions of their contract arms decades before that. BSA's previous commercial work is the whole point of the project I've been working on the past few years. 

Without going into the whole story (which will be told when it's fully cooked, I promise), the easiest way to see that BSA sold commercial rifles before 1905 is to look at the many surviving examples of Lee Metford sporting rifles that have pre-1904 commercial proof marks on them.


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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: September 17 2011 at 12:12am
Originally posted by Jc5 Jc5 wrote:

Originally posted by LE Owner LE Owner wrote:

Found this on the BSA site

Quote Prior to 1905 all work undertaken by BSA was for UK and Foreign Government contracts, no commercial work was undertaken.


With all due respect to the gentleman who wrote that (I respect him), that statement is not entirely correct. He's assuming that the first BSA commercial product was the War Office Miniature rifle (1905). But BSA made, marketed, and sold commercial versions of their contract arms decades before that. BSA's previous commercial work is the whole point of the project I've been working on the past few years. 

Without going into the whole story (which will be told when it's fully cooked, I promise), the easiest way to see that BSA sold commercial rifles before 1905 is to look at the many surviving examples of Lee Metford sporting rifles that have pre-1904 commercial proof marks on them.
Could be a mistake on the part of whoever wrote up the page on the BSA site. I know that there were civilian owners of LE and Metford target rifles and sporting rifles in the 1890's but never learned much about how these got into civilian hands other than the connections to Volunteer Rifle companies and reserve officers and such.
I'd read of the Army Navy stores where British officers bought private purchase firearms. I'm wondering if BSA may have sold sporting rifles directly to a government sponsored outlet. The rifles would then still be government contract items though sold as commercial firearms would have been in the U S.
 
I'll be glad to see your finished work, I like to read about the goings on of the late 19th to early 20th century.
 
A good source of information is the records of debates in the Parlements of Canada and Great Britain. 
Google Books also has free downloads of a few journals of the 19th century British gun trade which are a goldmine of information on the Lee Enfield and .303 cartridge, also much information on proof testing by methods in use at the time.
 
PS
I've read (possibly in one of Stratton's works) that when Lee Enfield action bodies were being manufactured they always made more than the contract called for, placing those not used in finishing a rifle into storage where they could be drawn as spares. At the time British practice did not recognise the receiver as being the heart of the rifles identity, that changed with new laws in the 1920's.
Finished action bodies might not be assembled as rifles till decades after manufacture. Whether these spares were proofed in some way before being set aside as spares I couldn't say. The NOS BSA replacement bolt body I obtained has a proof mark though never before having been part of a finished rifle. 
 
Heres a bit of info on the Army-Navy stores.
Quote

The store began as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-operative_society" rel="nofollow - co-operative society , The Army & Navy Co-operative Society, formed in 1871 by a group of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army" rel="nofollow - army and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy" rel="nofollow - navy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_%28armed_forces%29" rel="nofollow - officers . The intention was to supply 'articles of domestic consumption and general use to its members at the lowest remunerative rates'. The store opened on its present site on 15 February 1872 for the sale of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groceries" rel="nofollow - groceries and expanded to include goods as diverse as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapery" rel="nofollow - drapery , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug" rel="nofollow - drugs , fancy goods and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun" rel="nofollow - guns . The store was completely rebuilt and opened in 1977 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_%26_Navy_Stores_%28United_Kingdom%29#cite_note-0" rel="nofollow - [1] , designed by London architects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_Architects" rel="nofollow - Elsom Pack & Roberts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_%26_Navy_Stores_%28United_Kingdom%29#cite_note-1" rel="nofollow - [2] .

Based on the model of other middle-class co-operatives, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Civil_Service_Supply_Association&action=edit&redlink=1" rel="nofollow - Civil Service Supply Association ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strand,_London" rel="nofollow - Strand, London , 1864), the society issued tickets to its members in exchange for annual subscription. Membership of 'The Stores' as it became known was open only to those in the higher ranks of the armed forces and the widows of officers as well as the representatives of regimental messes and canteens. In later years membership was expanded to a wider audience and tickets were issued free of charge after 1922. The benefits of membership included a dividend from the profits of the business and the free delivery of goods



Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 17 2011 at 2:29am
A bit off topic, but co-ops were & still are popular in the UK for many things. Some were for specialized groups, but some were for everyone.
I remember going to the local Co-Op (never known as anything else) in Bristol with my mother. As you say there were tickets, bonus drawings & pay outs & other little "perks" like double green shield stamps as well.

Apparently they are still going strong from this article:Big smile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_co-operative_movement" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_co-operative_movement



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: September 17 2011 at 8:51am

The extra actions would not have been put into stores as spares as the action was not replaced. If a rifle came in with a damaged/worn action, it was scrapped.

BSA may well have made extras and kept them for the trade.


Posted By: Fred
Date Posted: September 17 2011 at 11:33am
Yes, this rifle is certainly a Magazine Lee Enfield Mk I* that was made after may of 1899 and probably before 1903. The butt stock is ruined and so you can get an original butt stock for it on eBay which  has one now for sale. It will be under Long Lee Enfield and they're often there for sale as well as fore stocks. Your rifle needs a sighting stud for the front Volley firing sighting arm. This was used as a front sight while viewing through the peep/eyepiece of the rear Volley Sight flip up arm when the rifle's were all fired together at massed formations of troops in the open out to 2800 yards away. The brass oiler for it was the Mk III oiler ( not the same thing as the No 1 Mk III rifle )which had the convex or rounded bottom. The Mk IV oiler of WW I and WW II had a flat botom that allowed it to stand on a table. These earlier Mk III oilers can also be located on eBay. They were issued with rifles from 1899 to 1906 and would've been the one issued with your rifle. A Brass pull through & cord was also stored in the butt under the plate. It went into the small hole next to the oiler hole. Your rifle is certainly NOT a Metford and never was. You can also obtain a Bolt Dust Guard for your rifle on eBay as well. Restore the rifle back with the replacement wood while you can still get it on eBay. You can fire it with Mk VII ammo just fine. have the head space checked since the bolt is a replacement from another rifle as the serial number shows. Not unusual.           Fred G.


Posted By: Fred
Date Posted: September 17 2011 at 12:03pm
The butt stock on eBay has just three hours to go before it's gone. It is item 320755591551.


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: September 17 2011 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Lithgow Lithgow wrote:

The extra actions would not have been put into stores as spares as the action was not replaced. If a rifle came in with a damaged/worn action, it was scrapped.

BSA may well have made extras and kept them for the trade.
 
Not according to the source I read.
If an action body cracked or warped and all other parts of the rifle were still in good shape they stripped the rifles and reassembled on a spare parts action body numbering the body to match the serial number of the barrel. That was the practice into the 1920's at least.
Until the 1920's the British held to the muzzle loader era practice of the serial number on the barrel being the definitive ID number of the rifle. So rather than renumber all parts to match a new action body the action body would be numbered to match the barrel.
The article was explaining why rifles in a certain serial number range might have an action body of a type discontinued many years earlier.
When action bodies were forged they always did this in "runs" that being the most cost efficient method. Gearing up to fill a limited order might cost more than the expected price per unit would warant. 
Also another source I found, a journal of technological advances in the 1890's told of action bodies of civilian or privately owned Lee Enfield target and sporting rifles being replaced after the British government released defective lots of .303 ammunition to the NRA at a Bisley Match. Action bodies of rifles cracked clean through due to this defective ammo.
 
I'm sure that in later years rifles with damaged action bodies would be routinely scrapped or marked as DP Drill Purpose only. After WW1 the British had millions of SMLE rifles that hadn't been issued yet.
The way they had geared up to increase mass production, performing serious repairs might take more man hours than were used in producing a new rifles, so scrapping a rifle or breaking it up for spares would be more cost effective.
 
Back in the 90's I found an add for unissued SMLE barreled action bodies intended as replacement parts. The U S Army had at one time delivered barreled receivers as replacements for rifles with damaged bores. The rifle would be stripped and all still good parts transfered, the old barreled receiver was then sent to the arsenal for rebarreling or disposal.


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 18 2011 at 3:30am
Originally posted by Fred Fred wrote:

Yes, this rifle is certainly a Magazine Lee Enfield Mk I* that was made after may of 1899 and probably before 1903.

Why do you say this Fred? Have you read the entire thread?


Posted By: Fred
Date Posted: September 18 2011 at 6:54am
I'll have to yield to your in depth knowledge, especialy of the Commercial vs Gvt. contract rifles. I didn't know that the  MLE Mk I* pattern rifles were made after the introduction of the shorter No 1 Mk I, Mk II and Mk III rifles. I figured that they might've been made in Pakistan or India for some time though.
 Thanks,  Fred


Posted By: Jc5
Date Posted: September 18 2011 at 3:15pm
Fred, the way to tell that the original poster's rifle was made after 1903 is the commercial proof marks on its action and barrel. That set of proofs was introduced in 1904. (See "British Gunmakers" vols 1 & 2 by Nigel Brown). When you look at proofs on commercial rifles you can see that the dates of service of the government/military rifles do not exactly resemble commercial production. 

Matt, it's been fun examining and discussing your rifle on this forum. I'll send you a PM if I can locate another rifle with a nearby serial number (with a known date) that will give us a more precise date than 1904-1914.

Cheers,
JC




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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have a question or data to share, please send me a PM.


Posted By: mrdibbles
Date Posted: September 18 2011 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by Jc5 Jc5 wrote:

Matt, it's been fun examining and discussing your rifle on this forum. I'll send you a PM if I can locate another rifle with a nearby serial number (with a known date) that will give us a more precise date than 1904-1914.
 
JC that would be great.  Thank you and thank you to everyone else for contributing!  This has been very interesting to say the least.


Posted By: DRC
Date Posted: September 19 2011 at 3:21am
'Tom Gresham said once that every gun owner should take a few minutes to sit down and write the story of each gun: where you got it, what you did with it, anything you changed, fixed or replaced...and then you pass along this written paper with the gun when you sell it or give it to your kids.'
I like the idea, and the Lee Enfield has just the place to store it's own history.  I shall be writing what history I know about my rifle and placing it in the oil bottle and then into the butt.

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We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go. Always a little further: it may be beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow. Across that angry or that glimmering sea


Posted By: fross
Date Posted: March 16 2017 at 2:00am
Hi forum, excuse me for my bad english...

I dig out this very interesting post because I recently bought the same rifle than Matt (mrdibbles)

It's a "long-Lee" commercial BSA&C°. # 17739
The main differences is the lack of the volley-sights (probably deleted on the customer order) and the charging bridge. 
The magazine is a commercial one with absolutely no marking.




Same BSA & C° marking on the right side :


Another difference on the barrel knox : instead of the "E" of Enfield, my rifle has the BSA three crossed rifles marking.


A PH5A diopter rear sight, but probably added later on the rifle.


According to JC5, it's a purely commercial Long-Lee made between 1904 and 1914. Based on the MkI* military model - no provision for a cleaning rod.

I've read somewhere (maybe on gunboards.com) that the rifles with only "BSA&C°" marking, without any private patent as i.e."Lee-Speed Patent", were made in 1914 and after.

Francois


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 16 2017 at 2:21am
very nice (Tres bonne)

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: judee83
Date Posted: March 16 2017 at 3:17pm
I probably can't offer anything anyone else hasn't already said.

As far as restoration, I would take care of the metal first. That will continue to corrode if not remedied.

The wood can come later after an expert can tell you if restoration will diminish value.

Other than that, that is one beautiful and rare find. Congratulations on a great and valuable project!


Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: March 17 2017 at 1:11am
There is an old saying.. 'You can always restore it tomorrow...BUT you will never be able to make it original again.'

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Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: March 17 2017 at 4:57pm
what a great thread , so much information , as ive often proclaimed im not in any way proficient in commercial rifles and only barly so in military but i love seeing these threads get wings and so much great discussion/infotrmation exchanged , its what we are here for , fanytastic response - thank you all , 

i for one would be hanging that on my wall to be sure as a long lee that we dont often see for sale on the market these days it represents an era many of us would love to add to our collection/accumulations , all too many of these have been lost through the years , congrats on your inheritance - treasure it , 



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