Need help with all the markings and yr of No4 Mk1
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Topic: Need help with all the markings and yr of No4 Mk1
Posted By: ShotsPB
Subject: Need help with all the markings and yr of No4 Mk1
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 6:32am
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so this is my lee enfield no4 mk1. i know it was sporterized, but i did some research and from the looks, it looks exactly like the Maltby no4 mk1 sporter, which all they did to that was cut the forend part of the stock and put on a different front sight. It said it still had the bayonet slugs still on it, but looking at it, it looks like the person who got it sporterized cut that off. But im not too sure if it is a Maltby sporter because i couldnt find any FTR markings on it. The markings on it are really wierd. i was doing alot of research on markings and mine isnt like any that ive seen, it has markings that others dont, and it dosnt have markings that others do. Im wondering it was like how germany was, to where towards the end of the world war they were just cranking out as many firearms as they could and were no longer taking as much time as they were putting as many markings on it. so here are the pictures- oh and it has a sante fe 5 round mag. Oh and what i did figure out from the serial number is that it was made in Maltby, and i just read that Maltby was sloppy with their markings, and you guys will see. Its a puzzle. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/807/212ck.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/213ut.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/214fp.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/215kw.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us says Parker Hale, then underneath it says ENGLAND http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/39/216w.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This is on the lower half of the middle, and its like in a row, this is pt 1 of 4 total its like B B 7 1 5 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/217z.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/218z.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/219bn.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/220hq.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This one is like on the chamber on top. And what i got from my research is that the arrow means it was a Government acceptance mark. What im wondering is what is that wierd thing below it? http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/221lw.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us More pics to come. it will be posted below |
Replies:
Posted By: ShotsPB
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 6:42am
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I have no clue what this mark is, and that ugly thing-thats from some idiot welding a bar ontop of it trying to make a scope mount. i removed the bar, now im working on cleaning it up and re-bluing that area. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/222xba.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us To me, this 1 looks like it says MBJ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/223fn.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/224jut.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This 1 is on the underside of the barrel, looks like an N or a Z http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/225qj.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us Still on the underside of the barrel http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/226ep.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us the BNP is Birmingham Nitro Proof Marks. i dont know what the crown is above iit means or the crossed swords or the R with the 2 fadded letters underneath it and the 1 fadded letter beside it. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/227vm.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  better look at the crossed swords and the R http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/806/228na.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us Wth is the BY mean? and underneath the BY is the serial number. just please tell me what ALL of those markings mean. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/440/229og.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us What is that H or I and that sloppy thing underneath it? http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/230ym.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us Its another crown with the numbers 52 underneath it http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/231iz.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/232zz.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us
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Posted By: ShotsPB
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 6:50am
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Yet ANOTHER BNP(Birmingham Nitro Proof). my quesstion is, what on earth is that wierd marking right above it? Looks like a T or a seriously effed up D http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/234jk.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This is on the reciever and has a B with a 49 underneath it http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/235pnv.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us Dont ask me on this one... lol http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/236l.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us this one is a fadded N, which i read that that its World War II codes consisted of a letter followed by a
number. "N" stands for "North", "M" for "Midlands", and "S" for "South". And the REALLY wierd thing is that i have acouple of N's on this thing and i also have acouple of M's on it as well http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/237es.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/238mt.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This is on the thing you push down to let the bolt out. it has an F on it, and on the back side of it, it has another arrow http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/239y.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This is again, another N, or a Z i think its an N though http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/240u.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us i think thats another arrow, for the government acceptance mark, and dunno if u can see it, but on the right there is an M on it as well. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/241wg.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This is on the magazine ejector BE, what is that?!?! oh and on the opposite side of it, theres another M http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/242un.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us
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Posted By: ShotsPB
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 6:59am
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On the left is another crown. which what does that mean? and on the right is and F with another arrow?, i dont know. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/243jw.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/440/244eh.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us another arrow http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/245sf.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This is underneath the safty. its a circle with an N inside http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/246in.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us no clue. looks like a palm tree to me http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/247yn.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us Here are the M's i was telling you about, for Midlands, accrding to what i read. now my thing is why would it be northern and midland? oh and this is where that whole trigger and trigger guard and magazine assemble thing is http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/249m.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us This is where it starts to get really weird. im sure you know what this is, but there is no date. all the enfields ive seen dont have markings like this http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/250ap.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us I dont know if you can see it, but i can, i spent a total of atleast 2 hours staring at it, but there is something REALLY REALLY fadded in between the ENGLAND and they BY and what it says is M / 45 http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/251dl.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us what does that BY mean, and what does the M/45 mean? http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/209/252uo.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us |
Posted By: ShotsPB
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 7:08am
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http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/253l.jpg/" rel="nofollow"> Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/543/254u.jpg/" rel="nofollow"> Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us The bolt head. theres the M and some wierd thing http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/255yp.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us Im guessin a 0? lol http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/257u.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us more BNP on the bolt http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/258x.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us this is on the underside of the bolt handle, its like an N or a Z http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/259uw.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us a B and an I or a B and 2 L's http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/261hl.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us a 3 and then some other weird thing, the more i look at it, it looks like another N inside a circle. lol i think thats the only thing best to describe these markings-weird. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/262zp.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us heres the serial number again. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/811/263lr.jpg/" rel="nofollow">  Uploaded with http://imageshack.us" rel="nofollow - ImageShack.us Are you guys able to tell the Year of the gun with the serial number? Basically i would like you guys to tell me EVERY single thing about these markings. Keep in mind im 18 and just getting into this stuff. so i know NOTHING about markings. Well, i know some stuff, but not alot. |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 11:47am
| thats mighty crude machining for PH but its their sight , lots of marks thatare common here |
Posted By: ShotsPB
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 2:14pm
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lol, yea im slowly starting to be able to read what it says.so far ive identified the B-Birmingham i believe the arrow-military proof marks M-midland N(on the left side or reciever)- that means it was Naval Service. BNP-Birmingham Nitro Proof I know the crossed swords with 3 letters around them is some sort of british proof marking, i just dont know which one!!! Also i know there is some sort of inspection mark(thats the deal with allthe crowns). But again, i dont know what inspection mark it is! the M/45 is a production code, HOWEVER i dont know which one, the only closest one i could find was M46, and thats not it. I know the serial number makes it from Maltby, which explains the sloppy markings and crude maching, and theyre also the one who sporterized this thing, after the war im assuming. So is there anything you guys can help me with?
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Posted By: Alan de Enfield
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 3:54pm
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England = US Import marking
M45 = Maltby and year of production
BY = the prefix letters to the serial number. (full serial number is BY14143)
BNP = Birmingham Nitro Proof marks to show that it was in the civilian gun trade (which is probably when it was sporterised and the PH front site fitted)
2.222" = proof mark for cartridge length
18.5 tons per square inch = proof pressure.
The majority of the other marks (letters in circles, numbers over letters in circles) are just inspectors markings as it went thru' the manufacturing process.
If you plan to restore it then you will need to re-barrel it. ------------- Its not what you've got thats important, its what you hav'nt got, but still want, thats important. |
Posted By: Alan de Enfield
Date Posted: January 11 2012 at 3:58pm
No - the ROF's did not sporterise their rifles. They were Military establishments and would not be allowed to undertake any non-military work.
It would have been sporterised in civilian hands - possibly by Parker Hale. ------------- Its not what you've got thats important, its what you hav'nt got, but still want, thats important. |
ShotsPB wrote:Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: January 12 2012 at 4:21am
| i agree parker hale could be possible [the front sight ] |
Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: January 12 2012 at 5:31am
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My first thought was Parker Hale too. They did sporterise rifles and did several different types ranging from a simple cut off forend up to the high end models which were restocked with sporting stocks, highly polished etc. I believe yours is a budget model. They also did 5 round mags from memory.
I would be concerned about the welding on the action as it is a big no no to weld any rifle action.
I think you need to take it to a COMPETENT gunsmith for his opinion before firing.
Plenty of rifles have been welded on and used with no ill effects, but, I wouldnt trust an action that has benn welded.
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Posted By: ShotsPB
Date Posted: January 12 2012 at 6:20am
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the weld was done MANY years ago. before i was even born. Probably about 45-50 years ago. My grandpa bought it from some guy. My grandpa didnt do anything to it, thats pretty much how he bought it. And it was used lots of times, up until around 1999. Then i finally picked it back up did a first cleaning and cut the weld off, and shot 60 shots through it at the range on December 19th or 20th, i cant remember. So i mean i understand your concern, trust me, that whole week before i shot it, me and a friend were talking about that weld, and how it could have ruined the heat treatment, even though my grandpa fired it for like 40 years with no problems. i mean shoot when we went to shoot it(which i shot the "first" shot) it was like playing russian rollette, didnt know if it was gunna blow up ornot. So i mean for now, its fine, its been working for a while and the barrel is going to need to be replaced anyways sometime soon, within the next 6monthsto 1 year at the LATEST. So i was just going to wait till then. the only reason why i dont want to replace the barrel now, is simply for sentimental reasons. Right now my concerns are getting some of the rust out of the barrel. put some of that rust and bluing remover on it, get the rust off of other spots, sand off the pitting, re-blue it. once i do that, ill most likely replace the barrel.
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Posted By: Ed Hill
Date Posted: January 12 2012 at 7:01am
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We need to get a couple of the UK folk on here for their opinion. Although it's a Parker Hale sight, I have never seen a Parker Hale with work that looked like the end of that barrel. The "funny" script and the thing that might be a crescent moon make me think it visited Turkey. Ed |
Posted By: Beerhunter
Date Posted: January 16 2012 at 8:03pm
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Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: January 17 2012 at 2:13pm
| Replacing the barrel is no easy feat, do you have a source already? I've searched and searched, I found 3 new barrels after an exhaustive search and was offered used barrels but didn't purchase them. What I am saying is replacement barrels are not an easy thing to find.Please enlighten me, thanks! |
Posted By: ShotsPB
Date Posted: January 17 2012 at 9:57pm
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pretty sure SIA has some barrels, not too sure though. but yea barrels for an enfield arnt too easy to find. Mainnly, you have to know where to look. but the barrel i have is actually in decent condition. Ive cleaned up that disgusting barrel tip, it looks nice now, as does most of this rifle now. Ill post pictures of it after im done restoring it. -edit- ive also cleaned up the weld marks. Im not too worried about it, the weld was done very sloppy and not well done i.e the tourch wasnt on it too long. |
Posted By: maxwell smart
Date Posted: July 16 2014 at 3:34pm
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The Parker Hale sporting models of this type ( the "Supreme" and the "De Luxe") were drilled-and-tapped for scope mounts. Yours appears to be of the same configuration as the the "De Luxe" model as far as stock work is concerned, but with the 5 round magazine from the "Supreme" model.
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