Irish Contract Enfield
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Topic: Irish Contract Enfield
Posted By: sjuhockey10
Subject: Irish Contract Enfield
Date Posted: December 11 2012 at 8:26am
This is getting to be an expensive undertaking   12/53 production No. 4 Mk 2.
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Replies:
Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: December 11 2012 at 8:53am
| SUPER!!! |
Posted By: ArcherSix
Date Posted: December 11 2012 at 11:08am
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Very Nice, looks really clean. And now I'm curious. What makes this an 'Irish Contract' rifle, and what's the significance of that?
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Posted By: sjuhockey10
Date Posted: December 11 2012 at 12:32pm
| Certain serial number blocks of No. 4 Mk 2s produced at Fazakerly in 1953/54 were allocated to various parts of the Empire. 50,000 of them were slated to go to Ireland, but due to the political climate tree rifles were never delivered. This rifle is within that serial number block. |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: December 11 2012 at 12:40pm
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Many 1950s production rifles are called Irish Contract particularly the one that came unissued in the mummy wrap but as the proud owner above said the Irish contract had a specific serial number range: PF309348-PF359747 ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 11 2012 at 10:15pm
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There is a lot of debate about the "Irish Contract Rifles"to say the least. Some swear they were at least partially delivered & so on. Here's the quick 'n dirty summary of the saga from various websites. ==================================== http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=34901" rel="nofollow - The so called "Irish Contract" rifles are in the
serial range PF309348 to PF 359347.Most were never delivered and put in storage
until sold as surplus. http://www.arrse.co.uk/shooting-hunting-fishing/96133-questions-about-lee-enfield-mk4-no-2-a.html" rel="nofollow - The changeover from Mk1 to Mk2 production is believed to
have occurred at rifle number "PF 100000". Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley Did I just find something interesting? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61726606" rel="nofollow - In relation to Lee Enfield No.4s
'Irish Contract'. I've seen this mentioned in other, often American forums and
invariably they quote some guy called Stratton who said "...The rifle was
manufactured for the Irish Republic, but because of political problems (duh)
the rifle was never delivered and was kept in storage. Well (duh) I don't recall any
political problems in 1953 that would have stopped the delivery of those
rifles. I can't help but think it's one of those myths that grew legs. So does anyone here know the
truth? Was there an Irish contract that was never delivered or were they in
fact war surplus British stocks as suggested by some. Or are they in fact
actually surplus ex Irish army never issued and sold on to America? AFAIK what are referred to as
"Irish Contract" are the ones sold by the Irish Government after the
FCA were given the FN http://www.vcrai.com/phpBB/phpBB3/index.php" rel="nofollow -
(The Irish Classic rifle forum) and you will get more info Pedroibar, I can safely that I
never saw a .303 dated earlier than the 1950s when I was in the FCA. Some were
actually 'new' out of the wrapping and dated 1953. They were all No.4 rifles.
The ones you refer to must be No.IIIs and were probably issued to the army in
the 1940s until replaced by the No.4s probably in the 50s. In reality the "Irish
contract" rifles were nothing more than rifles that had the FF Oglich
na Eireinn stamp on them. They ran a specific serial number.[Cant remember
what it is] Irish Contract "Blondes"
dated 1950 - 1955 with the PF serial number where sold to Century Arms in the
U.S. for £10 punts a rifle I believe. These where the ones stored in Ireland.
There was I believe a consignment of Irish Contract Rifles held in the UK that
where manufactured in the Fazerkly plant but the consignment never left the UK ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: sjuhockey10
Date Posted: December 11 2012 at 11:49pm
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Thanks for all the info, Shamu. I've read some of that here and there, but some new info in there as well. This rifle looks like it may have been delivered or issued at some point, as there are a few dings here and there that appear to be fairly old, but who knows. Here's this mark on the forward part of the receiver, which I've seen on other Irish Contract rifles. No one seems to know what it is, though I've seen speculation of it being the Irish "harp" emblem.  |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 12:18am
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nice grab , you are on a role , and congrats thats a really nice example , i see you have been adequately informed on the "irish" thing so ill not add to the above ,
i never got any excitement from the "irish" thing , but i appreciate that many have and its fun when i see someone get one , my mk2 is of the burma contract , i did pick up a nice FTR mkI/2 and am looking for the mkI*/3 , and yes this is an addiction that can get a bit costly if indulged to its fullest ,
one thing i found that helps control that urge to buy every one you lay eyes on is to lay out your theme early on , some like the idea of collecting every year of production of a certain model , others one of every manufacturer , i like geting a nice example of each model/mark that i can find without regard to mfgr or year produced ,
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Posted By: sjuhockey10
Date Posted: December 12 2012 at 6:24am
To be honest, I don't really get a huge thrill out of the Irish bit either. I was looking for a No. 4 Mk 2 in general when I stumbled across this one, and since other people do value the (potentially non-existant) Irish connection, it seemed like a worthwhile piece to pick up. If nothing else, I won't be losing money on the deal. I'm still working on adding some sort of perspective to my collection. My initial intent was leaning towards the earlier models, since the No. 1 is what I really fell in love with originally, but I seem to be gathering up No. 4s -- what a horrid fate
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A square 10 wrote:Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 13 2012 at 1:36am
| i suspect that had you taken the no1 angle you would still have gone to the no4 & 5 eventually anyway so its good that you are open to the idea when these nice examples are presenting themselves , one must jump on them when they are found or we miss out |
Posted By: cruisedub
Date Posted: February 24 2015 at 9:50pm
| All Irish contract Lee Enfield's were sold as surplus by the Irish Government to Interarms of Canada . They were disposed of in several batches , the myth that they not delivered due to political troubles is just that , a myth . |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 25 2015 at 2:31pm
| thats an interesting spin on the theme i had not heard , what did interarms do with them and how did so many end up here in the states ? |
Posted By: cruisedub
Date Posted: February 25 2015 at 6:22pm
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The Irish Department of Defense sold the rifles to interarms in the following order 1991___ 5,889 1993___ 20,000 1994___ 8,000 1996/97___ 16,000 How they were distributed by Interarms I don't know . Also it's probable that some Mk4T are still held in storage in Ireland , at least there were up until about eight years ago . They were held in a armoury just south of the border with the six counties .My source for this information is someone who saw them in storage . Just as an aside Lee Enfield No1 mark 3 were still in service with the Irish Army reserve up until 1973 and maybe beyond . They were equipped with a Energa grenade launcher and used solely for that purpose .There were also .22 No1 mk3 used as trainers at that time . |
Posted By: mike16
Date Posted: February 25 2015 at 11:30pm
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Has anybody ever asked the Irish themselves if they received any rifles. There was no "political Troubles" with the republic itself. The troubles themselves refer to the north....the occupied north what does Skennerton say? I too have an Irish contract No.4 Mk2. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 5:24am
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This should be easy enough to prove or disprove. When did the sale take place, more importantly when were they imported into the U.S? "The Irish Department of Defense sold the rifles to interarms in the following order 1991___ 5,889
1993___ 20,000 1994___ 8,000 1996/97___ 16,000" If there's an "Irish Contract" Enfield without an Interarms import mark then its suspect, particularly as we know the serial numbers. Has anyone a record of one purchased before these import dates?  ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 9:05am
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would like to point out that i was not questioning the posters truethfulness , my questions were meant to expand the conversation for the edification of all , i do appreciate hearing of the source tho as it adds to the info , i would love to hear from those that have an irish contract who the import marking is on their individual rifles to expand the conversation further , with the posted dates i think all will be marked , in tiurn just for chits and giggles im going to check out my burma contract rifle ....if i can get to it ,
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 1:33pm
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I wasn't thinking you were bashing the OP either. Its just that there is much contradictory information on not just the "Irish Contract" but all the contract rifles! It might be nice to find something definitive. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: mike16
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 4:05pm
So we've established that its not a myth. and now to narrow down the actual serial number range of those rifles actually in the inventory based upon which batch was sold when and by which importer. and then to actually verify the accuracy of the source relied upon. so there is no longer any need to adversely harm the value of any given rifle by insisting that the irish contract thing is a myth. It is indeed a fact.
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Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 26 2015 at 6:13pm
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i do not believe the 'favct' of the irish contract rifles has ever been questiond , nor the serial range , i think the question was always whether or not the were actually delivered to ireland or retained in stores , and then there is the question , which would help resolve the first question , of who released them to surplus and where they went - and my question was if they went where its suggested they did , how did they get here , inquiring minds want to know
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 27 2015 at 5:14am
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Agreed. No-one is disputing the range or existence. Everything was a "contract" for some entity at that point so to dispute it would be crazy. The quantity, range of numbers & contractee is well documented & no-one is disputing it. "PF 100000 PF 120000 South Africa? The question is the delivery, non-delivery, or partial delivery to Ireland of the rifles. If you look back a few posts I copy/pasted several differing views on the shipment, or not, of those rifles. Doing the math we're missing 100 rifle for sure as the quantity shipped adds up to less than the contract volume! ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Tweets
Date Posted: March 31 2016 at 10:56am
Thanks for letting me join this forum. I recently purchased an Irish Contract rifle PF 316642 including the matching serial numbered No 9 bayonet and scabbard. 
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Posted By: Blueduke
Date Posted: October 15 2016 at 8:51pm
| Hi new here. I read the above posts concerning the irish contract rifles. I just purchased one serial #PF316xxx. The rifles is not pristine but good shape all matching. It has wear around the barrel from the bayonet being attached. It has no import markings. Not sure if this aids in the past discussion or not. Thanks have a good day. |
Posted By: huncut
Date Posted: February 20 2017 at 12:48pm
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I currently own two Irish Contract rifles and one No 9 bayonet. Rifle serial nos are: 331xxx and 337xxx. They appear to be in new unfired condition with no signs of any kind of wear. However, they may have been fired a few times because the magazine followers show a slight sign that cartridges were put in them. The bayonet serial no is 328xxx and is the same on the scabbard. It shows what appear to be minor handling marks. I would like to acquire bayonets with serial nos that match my rifles. I am also willing to sell the bayonet that I have if someone needs that no.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 5:31am
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"However, they may have been fired a few times because the magazine
followers show a slight sign that cartridges were put in them." I can't prove it 100% but I'm sure that they were fired at the factory, possibly for proofing or final function testing. I base this on my mummy which I personally unwrapped. When I cleaned out all the original factory cosmolene there were signs of a few rounds being fired. Even worse the lazy devils hadn't cleaned the barrel before dropping into the melted hot cosmo, back in '55! ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Pedro
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 8:35am
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I suspect (but, not based on any compelling evidence) that any Irish contract rifles that weren't sold to the Irish republic didn't go simply because the Irish didn't need them. Although Ireland didn't take part in WW2, even there I guess there were more than enough small arms floating about to take care of their needs, less than a decade after the war finished. So I imagine, rather than based on any perceived "troubles", of which there weren't really any at that time, I bet the Irish government simply said "Thanks, but we don't need any more". I probably think, circumstantially, that this theory of mine is supported by the fact that the ROF, Fazackerley, post war, was searching high and low for buyers for it's wares. I can well imagine them producing rifles on an expression of interest from a potential buyer, hoping that the order would be confirmed. At the same time, keeping the factory in production and it's workers in gainful employment. Something that only persisted until the factory did eventually close in, if I recall correctly, 1960. Just to reiterate, this is merely a theory. But I would suggest a viable explanation. But maybe we will never actually be sure.
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Posted By: Pedro
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 8:40am
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Not really relevant to this discussion, but perhaps of interest regarding the ROF Fazackerley is this extract from Hansard. Hansard (apologies if you know) is a UK Government publication that, in effect, records all that goes on in the Houses of Parliament. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1960/may/04/royal-ordnance-factory-fazakerley" rel="nofollow - http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1960/may/04/royal-ordnance-factory-fazakerley
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Posted By: huncut
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 9:15am
| Thanks for the very prompt replies to my posting. I found them very interesting as I am a big fan of British Enfield rifles. I acquired my first one in 1968. It is a 1942 Long Branch No 4 that was commercially sporterized with the bayonet lug and sight cut off, wood removed, and a Parker Hale front ramp sight installed. The rear sight is a dual peep, a two groove barrel, and original butt stock. I mounted a Bushnell 4x BDC scope in 1974 and have been hunting with it since then. With 180 gr handloads it shoots one inch groups at 100 yards. I have shot antelope at over 500 yards and most recently a moose at 350 yards. Although I mostly use new rifles such as 270 and 300 win mag, I take it along as backup because it always has 8 - 10 rounds in the magazine. And when I have had problems such as bad scope or forgot to bring extra ammo for the "new" guns, I resort to my trusty Enfield to get the job done. My friends are amazed that my 75 year old battle rifle (as ugly as it looks) will outshoot their high priced new guns. This rifle is so good that it could have made the grade as a sniper. You could not get me to trade it for any new gun. The British certainly had a winner with their Enfields. |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 21 2017 at 5:33pm
| i love when these old threads come back to life and even more when the discussions are fun |
Posted By: javlin
Date Posted: July 01 2017 at 2:21pm
So I just got one of these at auction but want to know what the silver tag on the trigger guard represents.Still got cosmo in the barrel and some around the front sight plan to keep it that way.I have never been a big fan of some of the earlier models of the Enfields as far as aesthetic go.The Mk4 No I with the fluted handguard is appealing but back to the original question the silver riveted ring? ------------- It is not ours to restore the power of the Constitution. It is ours to show them the wrath of America without the protections the Constitution offers them.” “Let them restore it to find refuge from us |
Posted By: huncut
Date Posted: July 12 2017 at 5:57pm
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Is the band metal or paper? Does it have any kind of markings on? It is possible that it was put on in the factory and used for some type of inventory control. You might want to completely clean the rifle so that you can inspect the bore and action. There is always the chance that there could be some corrosion under the wood.
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Posted By: javlin
Date Posted: July 14 2017 at 10:35am
Aluminum B63396 I was thinking maybe a crate number? ------------- It is not ours to restore the power of the Constitution. It is ours to show them the wrath of America without the protections the Constitution offers them.” “Let them restore it to find refuge from us |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: July 17 2017 at 8:15pm
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to pull a tony here - RIP , it is a no4 mkI rifle - nomenclature means everything here , that said , nice rifle , not all had the fluted handgards but i agree they add class , also some had the ZAMAK -MAZAK buttplates as opposed to the brass , that's an interesting alternative as well , one should have something of everything as long as the vintage is correct , so many backsights etc to look for ,
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 18 2017 at 5:31am
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I never saw a a service arm tagged that way. Based on that I assume a civilian dealer's inventory tag of some kind as I've seen several with one for commercial sale? ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |