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303 Machine gun belt

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Topic: 303 Machine gun belt
Posted By: 303Guy
Subject: 303 Machine gun belt
Date Posted: April 19 2013 at 6:46pm
Can anyone identify this machine gun belt.  I got it today with a sporter SMLE I bought.  The ammo is 1942 Mk VII.




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303Guy



Replies:
Posted By: flanker
Date Posted: April 19 2013 at 7:26pm
Interesting, I have a couple of hundred PPU 303 cases which have marks showing they clearly were held in a disintegrating belt. I'd like to know what your belt is too. I think that 303 disintegrating link belts may have been used in Browning aircraft machineguns: http://www.rjmilitaria.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=207.

Unfortunately I didn't check the seller claim that my cases were boxer primed - they're berdan. Luckily I've located a hydro-punch decapper.


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Life is full of possibilities, 50% of them are likely to good....


Posted By: ArcherSix
Date Posted: April 19 2013 at 11:09pm
I'm not 100% on this, but that looks like someone stuck .303 rounds into Soviet pattern links. They look likt the non-disintegrating belt that goes with the RPD LMG. The 'finger' coming out of the individual link it supposed to snap into the 7.62x39 rounds extraction groove.
Like I said, I'm not 100% but I think that's what you have.


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 10:08am
These aren't disintegrating links, there are linked with spiral spring wire like some MG34 or MG42 belts.
 
Its possible that these might still work through a Vickers or Browning that normally used cloth belts, though not made for that purpose.


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 10:23am
Could this be a PK belt when the PK was still in 7.62 x 54?  I think the PKM is in 7.62 x 39?




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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 5:10pm
The 7.62x54 does not fit and I can't find my 7.62x39 cases.  The latter does seem plausible. 

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303Guy


Posted By: flanker
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 5:52pm
 Is the ammunition unfired? Are you going to try it?
I have a few of those cases in my kit somewhere.


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Life is full of possibilities, 50% of them are likely to good....


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 20 2013 at 8:12pm
It has been thirty plus years since I have "played" with Russian ammo so it is only a guess.


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 2:22am
They are good rounds, unfired and no, I won't be firing them.  Apart from being old and cordite, they have a novelty collectors value to me, even if they don't belong in the belt.

I never knew or dreamed that the 7.62x39 would have been used in a belt fed machine gun.


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303Guy


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 4:36am
The 7.62 x 39 is an interesting round.

The first time I saw it was in 1966 when my brother showed me an SKS and ammo.




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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 4:38am
The 7.62X39 beltfed guns are not used by major militaries near as much these days. Effective body armor has greatly reduced the viability of such a cartridge at the range where a beltfed squad auto would be best employed. Now days its greatest effect would be at close range where a AK would work just as well.
Even terrorist prefer the main battle cartridge chambered LMGs these days, using Iranian copies of old Soviet 7.62X54 guns and refurbished WW2 LMGS like the Bren and MG42, sometimes rebarreled to 7.62 NATO. They've even found 1919A6 and BAR in terrorist weapons caches in Afghanistan and Iraq. 
 
There are plenty of these still 7.62 beltfeds still available in the third world, and I've heard of some contractors using these for close range vehicle defense and to engage crowds of rioters who aren't well equiped or armored.
 
The 7.62X39 cartridge case has similar shape and dimensions to the front half of the .303 case. Some Enfields have been converted to 7.62X39 by simly setting the barrel shank back and using the remaining portion of the .303 chamber.


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: April 21 2013 at 5:14pm
Interesting!  Well, I haven't looked for those case but I'm sorta thinking it is a 7.62x39 belt in which case I can get some milsurps to populate that belt with.  I'd still like a piece of 303 belt for those rounds.  Maybe I'll just leave it as it is to hang up in my loading cabinet.

I don't plan on re-chambering a 303 to 7.62x39 but I do plan on joining a 22lr barrel to a 303 chamber to form a 22/303 wildcat for cast bullets.  A 16 twist can stabilize a 60gr bullet with a low muzzle blast cartridge.  The 22/303 is very close to a rimmed 220 Swift but a 22lr barrel won't last with full power jacketed loads.  I do have a 14 twist barrel steel 22lr barrel from a Toz but I want that one for a 22 hornet or 222 Remington.


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303Guy


Posted By: flanker
Date Posted: April 22 2013 at 2:00am
Originally posted by 303Guy 303Guy wrote:


I don't plan on re-chambering a 303 to 7.62x39 but I do plan on joining a 22lr barrel to a 303 chamber to form a 22/303 wildcat for cast bullets. 



Pig Erm.... is that not potentially catastrophic? Would a 223 barrel not be a wee bit stronger?


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Life is full of possibilities, 50% of them are likely to good....


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: April 22 2013 at 3:47am
Yes it would be but the barrel itself will take a lot of pressure before it bulges and I plan on only shooting low pressure loads with cast.  I suspect the steel I have is actually barrel steel - not 4140 like the Toz barrel is supposed to be - as used on early rifle barrels.  I'm concerned about bore wear, not steel strength.  If I can determine what steel is used I might be able to shoot jacketed bullets and that would be great.  Those wee 22's are hard to cast!

The barrel I have is a Cooey Model 75 which I think is the Canadian military 22 training rifle.  Anyway, it has a sharp high pitched ring to it when flicked with a finger.  I also have a Gecardo barrel which sounds like the Toz and a 303 barrel - a dull thud with no ring.

The advantage of a large case with such a small bore for cast bullets is the case volume keeps the pressure down by virtue of its size and still produce decent velocities, up in the mid 2000's.



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303Guy


Posted By: flanker
Date Posted: April 22 2013 at 5:48am
You need help mate LOL
But I can't criticize too much, I compress the loads in my 223 deer rounds. 1.9cc of H4895 will fit in at a squeeze and it is VERY flat shooting.
Good luck, It would be interesting to see pics of the loaded round and the rifle.Thumbs Up


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Life is full of possibilities, 50% of them are likely to good....


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: April 22 2013 at 6:30am
Might be a good idea to use a shortened case or a chamber with shoulder set back to avoid some heir in the future running a full power 22/303 through it.
If left full length with shoulder set back you would have a longer neck which would cover the lube grooves of cast bullets avoiding contamination by grit, and be sure of the gas check being held by the case neck so no gas checks come off prematurely.


Posted By: muffett.2008
Date Posted: April 22 2013 at 6:52am
...........and update your life insurance.Wink


Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: April 22 2013 at 4:05pm
This reminds me of a .303 based wildcat with very long neck and reduced capacity I saw images of months ago.
I think it kept the .303, or possibly a .308 bore, and was specifically for use with long heavy cast boolits.
The lube grooves were completely covered by the case neck and the gas check solidly supported by the neck. I think it was mentioned that the long neck improved reliability of paper patching.
 
While a small charge in a large case reduces chamber pressure it also makes burning of the charge less consistent unless a filler is used.


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: April 22 2013 at 5:33pm
There is the 303 Pygmy which is a 303 shortened to shoulder start length.  In Canada there is the 22-303 Varmint R which has a slightly shortened case.  Setting the shoulder back and increasing neck length would be my preference.  I'll stamp or engrave the load pressure or something on the barrel.  

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303Guy


Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: April 23 2013 at 7:20am
"I don't plan on re-chambering a 303 to 7.62x39 but I do plan on joining a 22lr barrel to a 303 chamber to form a 22/303 wildcat for cast bullets.  A 16 twist can stabilize a 60gr bullet with a low muzzle blast cartridge.  The 22/303 is very close to a rimmed 220 Swift but a 22lr barrel won't last with full power jacketed loads.  I do have a 14 twist barrel steel 22lr barrel from a Toz but I want that one for a 22 hornet or 222 Remington."

 Have they done any"fracking" ( extraction of shale gas ) in your area 303?


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Rottie (PitBulls dad.)


“If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons

Born free taxed to death!!!



Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: April 23 2013 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Tony Tony wrote:

Have they done any"fracking" ( extraction of shale gas ) in your area 303? 
I have no idea.  Well, I didn't until now when I looked on the web and would you believe it - yes they are doing in Taranaki (western most part of North Island).  Holy cow.  And they're debating doing it in Southland (South Island)

"Turn on a tap, strike a match, and hold the flame to the water. You would expect the flame to go out, but in parts of the United States water can be set on fire."

Is that true?


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303Guy


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 23 2013 at 8:02pm
That is a good one. I have never heard that one before. Did not work in my house. If the water does catch on fire how do you put out the fire?








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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: April 23 2013 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by 303Guy 303Guy wrote:

Originally posted by Tony Tony wrote:

Have they done any"fracking" ( extraction of shale gas ) in your area 303? 
I have no idea.  Well, I didn't until now when I looked on the web and would you believe it - yes they are doing in Taranaki (western most part of North Island).  Holy cow.  And they're debating doing it in Southland (South Island)

"Turn on a tap, strike a match, and hold the flame to the water. You would expect the flame to go out, but in parts of the United States water can be set on fire."

Is that true?
Closer to truth than you'd think!Confused
 
 
 
"The Cuyahoga River in the United States. Outside of Cleveland, Ohio the river is most famous for being "the river that caught fire", in the late 1960s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River
 
I remember the highway which runs alongside it being closed because there was so much industrial waste the wind was blowing 25' diameter foam balls onto the blacktop & totally blocking visibility on the six-lane!
 


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 23 2013 at 11:42pm
I have herd in the 30's and 40's the Potomac river would catch fire from all the pollution in it.

That can not happen to today thanks to all the efforts of the US Government. In other words it is just full of "brown trout"

In this case "brown trout" are just sh!!.




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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 7:49am
Well, we are the 'clean green' capitol of the world and our gubbamint is trying it's dambdest to undo that (not to mention hiding all the past sins.  Did you know we used to spray dioxin all over the country?  We made the stuff for use in Vietnam!  Yup, we're 'clean green'.Clown

Anyway, I've found my AK cases and although they fit, they don't belong there.  What does fit and appear to belong in the belt are 8x57 Mauser cartridges.  That would make more sense since we were involved in the conflict with the Nazis.  It could also be Japanese.




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303Guy


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 8:19am
A Nazis belt, that make more sense than a Russian belt.




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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 2:23pm
Now we know why you got the insane idea of slapping a 22 barrel on a 303.Evil Smile


-------------
Rottie (PitBulls dad.)


“If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons

Born free taxed to death!!!



Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by 303Guy 303Guy wrote:

Well, we are the 'clean green' capitol of the world and our gubbamint is trying it's dambdest to undo that (not to mention hiding all the past sins.  Did you know we used to spray dioxin all over the country?  We made the stuff for use in Vietnam!  Yup, we're 'clean green'.Clown

Anyway, I've found my AK cases and although they fit, they don't belong there.  What does fit and appear to belong in the belt are 8x57 Mauser cartridges.  That would make more sense since we were involved in the conflict with the Nazis.  It could also be Japanese.


 
I thought the Dioxin was made in Canada rather than Australia. Canada produced most of the Napalm use there.
Suprisingly Canada manufactures much of the munnitions used by the U S Army even today.
 
I would guess that the Soviet steel link belts were copied from the German belts used by the MG34 and MG42.
There were some German ground LMGs that used disintegrating belts, These were Luftwaffe aerial guns modified for ground use, and required the belt designed for aerial guns. Those converted guns fired even faster than the MG42. Older aerial guns converted for ground use in WW2 were fed by saddle drums or box magazines.
 
PS
A nearby creek caught fire years ago, but that was due to the rupture of a under ground fuel storage tank at a service station just uphill from the creek.
I've read of an incident where workmen at a gasoline storage tank farm tried raising the level of gasoline in a tank for some purpose by hooking up a hose to a fire hydrant. Only problem was the city water there worked at only 80 PSI so the gasoline ended up draining back into and through the fire hydrant putting tens of thousands of gallons of gasoline into the plumbing of nearby homes.
They first discovered it when a guy sitting on a toliet dropped his cigarette butt in the toliet. He got so burns in the most uncomfortable places.
In Knoxville TN a restaurant manager was looking for the source of an odd smell in the kitchen. He had no flashlight handy so he used a candle.
That restaurant did not use gas so a gas leak never entered his mind. Unfortunately a broken electrical conduit tube and a leaking gas main in the same underground tunnel resulted in gas coming up through the conduit into the kitchen.
No one was killed or seriously injured but the TV news showed dozens of patrons wandering around the parking lot with torn and scorched clothes and soot blackened faces. I doubt the crowd had a complete eyebrow between them.


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 8:00pm
Dioxin you say? I sprayed lots of dioxin in NJ when I was in the Army in the 70's. Maybe that is why my boots started to rot after only six months in the Army.

Ed


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: April 24 2013 at 11:17pm
It looks like a non disintegrating metal link belt for an MG34/MG42 in 8mm Mauser to me.
I have a couple of pics of such a linked belt with the "beak" from a re enactment, but cant get a really good image of the belt itself. Here's an image I lifted from a site with more info. Came as 5 X 50 round belts to a box, you could combine the 50-rounders to make longer ones if you wished.
 


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: April 25 2013 at 12:59am
Originally posted by paddyofurniture paddyofurniture wrote:

Dioxin you say? I sprayed lots of dioxin in NJ when I was in the Army in the 70's. Maybe that is why my boots started to rot after only six months in the Army.

Ed


Course-it wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with the 2,500 sweat glands in your feet, being a little overactive?
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: 303Guy
Date Posted: April 25 2013 at 2:27am

That's the one!  These are 8x57 empties I had picked up on a range.  I'll see if I can get some more from the range as well as some loaded rounds to populate the belt for a wall hanger.



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303Guy


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 25 2013 at 3:51am
Hoadie,

Are you saying that my feet stink?

You must have been talking to my ex-wife or the current wife. Yes my feet stink. I can take off my boots and the dogs howl from the smell.

Being such a "nice" person I will send you two (2) pairs of my used socks. You can use them to repel skunks, bears,coyotes, and other large mammals.


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: April 25 2013 at 4:05am
Theres laws..FEDERAL LAWS.. agin sending hazardous waste through the mail - or courier. So..you best keep 'em to yoself!
B'sides..the bears, coyotes & other large mammals aint done nothin to YOU so why would you do that to them? (Now-I DO have a problem with a pesky porcupine(but lead can fix him..less he eats the cottage first!)
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: April 25 2013 at 4:05am
Theres laws..FEDERAL LAWS.. agin sending hazardous waste through the mail - or courier. So..you best keep 'em to yoself!
B'sides..the bears, coyotes & other large mammals aint done nothin to YOU so why would you do that to them? (Now-I DO have a problem with a pesky porcupine(but lead can fix him..less he eats the cottage first!)
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 25 2013 at 4:11am
Wow Hoadie!

You must have gotten real upset over my socks "gift giving" and the system posted your reply twice!




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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: April 25 2013 at 4:43am
twerent me! The compuiker had a brain fart!
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: April 25 2013 at 5:58am
That was one heck of a blast.

Next time you feel the presure point it at the " pesky porcupine". That should wipe /crash his hard drive.


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Roestalker270
Date Posted: September 08 2016 at 2:11pm
I'm pretty sure that's a German belt:

http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/roestalker270/media/600409A3-F1BB-421A-A7F2-FE09999865E0.png_zpssr1hiy5n.jpeg.html" rel="nofollow">

I've got a belt of .303 empties that were put back in their disintegrating links by a guy that, as a kid, picked them up after a pair of Spitfires that were chasing down a 109 flew over him firing bursts. I'll try and dig it out and grab a few pics if anyone is interested to see them?

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Owning a gun or knife and not using it, is akin to not sleeping with your girlfriend to keep her neat and tidy for the next dude.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 08 2016 at 9:52pm
id like to see them , this is a fun thread i have no ability to contribute to otherwise 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 09 2016 at 5:19am
"I've got a belt of .303 empties that were put back in their disintegrating links by a guy that, as a kid, picked them up after a pair of Spitfires that were chasing down a 109 flew over him firing bursts."
You answered a long standing question for me. I always wondered what happened to the millions of empties & links that were dumped out the ejection ports during the Battle of Britain!
Thanks.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Roestalker270
Date Posted: September 09 2016 at 5:29am
Well mostly the BoB was fought over my county in Kent, though of course it did stray into neighbouring counties.

Kent is known as the garden of England, so you can guess at that time it was very rural. The BoB being fought in September would've meant that all those empties would've rained down on the fields that were about to have the crops cut, and then ploughed. So everything that wasn't picked up by kids for swapsies or lost over the channel would've been ploughed under fairly quickly after the BoB period.

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Owning a gun or knife and not using it, is akin to not sleeping with your girlfriend to keep her neat and tidy for the next dude.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 09 2016 at 8:28am
I wonder if there was ever anyone out in the country actually pelted with links & brass free falling from 15~20,000 FtShocked. That would leave a mark or two!

I imagine with the radar & air raid warning system most would have gone into shelters before the actual dogfights happened, but you know there must have been that one "bright Spark".


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Roestalker270
Date Posted: September 09 2016 at 8:34am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

I wonder if there was ever anyone out in the country actually pelted with links & brass free falling from 15~20,000 FtShocked. That would leave a mark or two!

I imagine with the radar & air raid warning system most would have gone into shelters before the actual dogfights happened, but you know there must have been that one "bright Spark".


Oh yes, there's always one!

They say that a penny dropped from the top of the Eiffel Tower would kill a man if it struck him on the head.....

I wonder if there were any actual fatalities from falling brass and spent projectiles?

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Owning a gun or knife and not using it, is akin to not sleeping with your girlfriend to keep her neat and tidy for the next dude.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 09 2016 at 12:47pm
Somehow I doubt it, that's actually an urban myth. The terminal velocity of a penny is very low because aerodynamically its terrible.
Embarrassed
When we were learning to fly gliders we'd drop the old British "Manhole cover" pennies to try to hit the winch housing (There was an operator inside the winch) from 800~1200 feet. If you hit the sheet metal cover it'd "DING" loudly, but not even chip the paint.

Yes, it was strictly prohibited, but so was "piss bombing" Russian "trawlers", you know, the ones with no fish but hundreds of antennas.
Clown


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: September 10 2016 at 6:48am
And some of the crews are not military, just KGB.

Better to drop full Beer cans as "gifts".

Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Somehow I doubt it, that's actually an urban myth. The terminal velocity of a penny is very low because aerodynamically its terrible.
Embarrassed
When we were learning to fly gliders we'd drop the old British "Manhole cover" pennies to try to hit the winch housing (There was an operator inside the winch) from 800~1200 feet. If you hit the sheet metal cover it'd "DING" loudly, but not even chip the paint.

Yes, it was strictly prohibited, but so was "piss bombing" Russian "trawlers", you know, the ones with no fish but hundreds of antennas.
Clown




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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: 42rocker
Date Posted: October 09 2018 at 7:47pm
An old interesting thread. May I confirm the belt is for MG34 or MG42. There are several machine guns that use 7.62x39.
One of the latest conversions that just came out converts the MG42 series into a 7.62x39 belted weapon. Normal MG42 belts are used as I understand it. There were some MG42's that were converted to use the 7.62x54r by the Germans during WW2 for use in another country. If I remember right there is only 1 left. Several folks over the last 10 years have worked on this conversion, I have been part of the talks on it. But that's all it has been to this point as I understand it, just talk, someday. 
 
Later 42rocker



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