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My first No. 4 Mk 1/2 What is it?

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Topic: My first No. 4 Mk 1/2 What is it?
Posted By: KC9AOP
Subject: My first No. 4 Mk 1/2 What is it?
Date Posted: November 15 2013 at 1:34pm
he!!o,

I've just bought my first No. 4 Mk. 1/2 and could use your help identifying it.  I can easily see it is a No. 4 Mk.1/2 made in 1942.  It went for FTR in 1951.  The Armorer stamped it with an "A" so it has some non-interchangeable parts.  Past that I am unsure of anything else.  I've attached photos of what looks like the significant markings.  Since this was a FTR it was repainted.  I suspect most of the barrel markings are under the new coat of paint but I really don't know.



















Hopefully this will be something to go on.  Anything you can tell me would be appreciated.



Replies:
Posted By: MaxP
Date Posted: November 15 2013 at 2:29pm
The No4 isn't an SMLE, common misconception ....
I can't help much on the specific markings as the No4 is not my field.... The first pic shows import markings, not military.


Posted By: KC9AOP
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 1:41am
Thanks for the correction.  I changed the post title.

Jim


Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 7:41am
The No4 Mk1/2 is a No4 Mk1 that was upgraded during the FTR with the No4 Mk2 trigger. The new trigger assembly was brazed on the receiver. Depending on the need  the upgraded No4s may have gotten a new barrel and/or wood as well.  A No4 Mk 1/3 is an upgraded No4 Mk1* btw. These upgrades tend to be in good condition, or atleast the ones I have come accross.  I have a Faz No4 1/2 that is one of my best shooters.

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Have a Nice Day
If already having a nice day please disregard


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 8:51am
a FTR was done in the 51 date , not certain if that was the change to mk2 or if it had another after that , the mk2 FTRs were done by FAZ , your rifle was built in a british factory but im not at all certain by whats posted which one , some markings may have been done by the point of use country , 


Posted By: KC9AOP
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 1:58pm
Is there something else that will help identify this rifle? I have more photos but did not want to flood the thread with useless pics.

The photos I have are kind of hard to see. There are marks that I can't decypher. I think the 51 is a makers mark along with the C on the plate where the butt stock attaches. There are more marks on the wood. The one in the photo may mean the stock was in South Africa at some point. There is clearly an arrow right below the trigger guard and I believe that means it was sold out of the military.

There is nothing on the barrel near the bayonet lug. The front site has numbers on it. The micrometer has a few marks as well. The bolt has a bunch of marks but if the rifle was refurbished I don't know if it has the original bolt anyway.

I'll be happy to post pics of whatever helps. Just let me know.

Jim


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 10:46pm
It was imported By Century after 1968. That's the "CAI ST a VT" stamp, before '68 it would just have had "ENGLAND' stamped.
Might the "F51" be a 1951 Fazakerly barrel?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: KC9AOP
Date Posted: December 29 2013 at 9:47am
I just discovered that the cocking piece is stamped "DP".  That's the only DP I can find on entire gun.  I've ordered a replacement piece but is it really necessary?  I know the DP is not necessarily a sign of a defective part (I know DP = Drill Purposes not defective part) but I want to be careful.  This is a full FTR so I'm a bit confused  Would an armorer use a DP part in an FTR? 


Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: December 29 2013 at 12:33pm
It may not have been a armorer or atleast a British Military armorer. Someone somewhere in the rifle's history may have swapped out the original which may have had some surface defects with one from a DP rifle or a pile of parts that looked better.  I used a "DP" marked band on a sporterised  rifle I restored a few years ago.

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Have a Nice Day
If already having a nice day please disregard


Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: December 29 2013 at 8:30pm
Does the bolt and action serial numbers match? Make sure it's not a DP bolt.


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: December 29 2013 at 10:39pm
You did the right thing to replace the cocking piece. When a part is marked DP you have no idea why it was marked such and parts that are pressure bearing or make it go boom cannot be trusted. Bands and wood are fine to use, but I too would replace that cocking piece with a good one. And no, no armourer would have replaced a defective part with a DP part. Once a part was DP'd it was essentially a death sentence for said part as far as the military was concerned.


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: December 29 2013 at 10:41pm
In my "stores box" I still have a few trigger guards left I think with the trigger still mounted.

What was a better trigger the original or the changed / up grade?


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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 12:12am
i did not think to check the serial number but ... the 10900 [if im reading it right] is the range assigned to maltby , assuming it was not changed , which is unlikely save the "A" sufix being added , 
they used the prefix A-Z and AA - BZ , 


Posted By: Jon287
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 12:35am
Originally posted by paddyofurniture paddyofurniture wrote:

In my "stores box" I still have a few trigger guards left I think with the trigger still mounted.

What was a better trigger the original or the changed / up grade?
I think the forearm stock is different between the No4 Mk1 and the No4 Mk2, as well as the way the trigger is mounted. They can't be swapped back and forth that easily.
Please be aware that I don't own a No.4 Mk2, it is just what I have gathered from reading. If I am wrong , someone correct me!


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Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their planet!!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 1:16am
Correct!
The Mk1 had the trigger attached to the actual guard. The change with the Mk2 was to braze a "hanger", (read piece of steel) to the front of the receiver ring & attach the trigger to that. There was no attachment for the trigger on the trigger guard of Mk2's.

This is the "hanger" & trigger of a Mk2.


The forend of the Mk2 has a cut for the "hanger" & a cross bolt fastening it to the "hanger" by screw tension/friction. Unlike the Mk1's metal riveted in strap.

Supposedly the change made an improvement to the consistency of trigger pull as the forend wood swelling & shrinking by moisture absorption effecting trigger feel was removed. Having had both I really can't tell the difference, but my wood is probably pampered compared to trench warfare life!


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: KC9AOP
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 1:49am
The cocking piece is the only thing marked DP on the bolt. Could the whole bolt be DP if just the cocking piece is marked?


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 3:26am
They marked individual parts, so if your bolt body was DP'd it would have been marked as such.


Posted By: KC9AOP
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 4:32am
Thanks for that info.  I'm still confused how a FTR rifle ended up with a bolt that has a DP mark on it anywhere.  I guess the bolt could have been mucked with but the fit and finish are consistent with the rest of the rifle.




Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 4:52am
It might have been TFRd at one point in its life then DP'd later. You have to remember that this was about the time when the Lee Enfields were "going away" to make room for the (then new) "Ess Ell Arr" that was being phased into service.

Part of it was the politics of the era. There's been more than one rumor that the only reason Faz stayed open was because they were doing FTR's & builds for overseas contract Lee Enfields because they didn't want the unemployment numbers to shoot up as would have happened if the factory was closed. AFAIK Faz never ever made L1A1's even though they couldn't crank em out fast enough.

I'd bet that if the timing had been different quite a lot of Enfields wouldn't have been DP'd.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 5:00am
I also wanted to point out that the cocking piece could have been put on there at any time after that rifle was sold out of service too. Many people have replaced pieces post service not knowing that a DP mark was not a good thing.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 5:14am
dittos what bear said , the parts are interchangeable within tolerances but many after users switched bits to fit their fancy [make them more correct] and make them more sale-able , 


Posted By: KC9AOP
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 6:54am
Well my order from Numrich will set things straight!  Ordered the cocking piece and the screw.  Have their firing pin tool already and it works great so far.

Thanks to everyone for their input.  I'm going to go over the barrel and action with a fine toothed comb to make sure there are no other DP marks on it.  I did scour it once but I'll do it again to be sure.

Jim


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: December 30 2013 at 1:42pm
OK , now you have altered it so , now the next owner has a whole new dilemma , not sayin its bad ...just sayin , it is what all of us deal with every day , my personal experience aside , you now have altered it again , if you intend to keep it ...i understand , if your looking to sell it - reveal it , 

these days i do not buy without asking , but im not altogether sure the sellers fully reveal , 



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