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No.4 Mk1 Date and serial questions

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Topic: No.4 Mk1 Date and serial questions
Posted By: MustanGrande
Subject: No.4 Mk1 Date and serial questions
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 7:27am
Following my local gun show today, I am now a proud owner of a gorgeous No.4 Mk.1 rifle.  I am, however, having a bit of trouble working out the rifle's history.  The rifle only has 4 digits in the serial number, and a PF prefix.  The receiver markings have been painted-over at some point, and are difficult to read.  They appear to say
No.4 Mk.1 (F)
12/4 | PF1419

The rifle has the flip-up target-style sight, and a brass buttplate.  Due to the finish on the rifle, the pictures I took were either too dark or illegible, due to the glare from the flash. 

Are there any other markings I should look for?




Replies:
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 10:12am
Dude! Wheres the pics?
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 10:24am
Take it outside and turn the flash off to take the photos !


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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 10:34am
It was made in Fazakerley if my sources are correct pronounced fa-ZAK-erley

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Have a Nice Day
If already having a nice day please disregard


Posted By: MustanGrande
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 10:53am
I'll get some good pics tomorrow, once the sun comes out.  When I came in from the show, it was getting ready to rain.  Are there any areas specifically that should be photographed?

Until then, let's see..  more details...
The stock is dark, and appears to be some sort of walnut. 

The flip-up sight is labeled CR403,and has the click-adjustable worm gear for elevation. 

The rifle came with the issue "bore snake" inside the stock cavity. 

The cocking piece/striker is labeled N.67 Mk.2. 

The bolt is marked F.104 in multiple places, with an H 1 in the recess of the long lug. 

The bolt head is marked with a 2.

The magazine matches the rifle's PF1419 serial. 

There is a stamping near the muzzle with the BNP insignia and .303  2.222" 18.5 tons per (a picture of a square) "  (Which I recall thinking was a rather novel way of writing "per square inch")

Almost every part has some sort of stamping, which makes it hard to tell what is meaningful and what isn't.

Additionally, closer inspection of the main stamping on the left side of the receiver (which is extremely faint due to the tough black paint applied over it) revealed that the date stamp is 12/47.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 16 2013 at 10:48pm
Overall view, left side of stock socket & top plus right viev of action should give us a good kickstart.

It will photograph better not in sunlight BTW. a shady spot outdoors would be best.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: MustanGrande
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 5:12am
Here's the pics.








Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 6:10am
Its been re-stamped I think. The second digit of the year is missing it should read "12(month)/ 4x (the X being the second digit of the year.

The "ENGLAND" is a U.S. pre 1968 import stamp & so they re created a new serial number for it.
Before the change might it have looked like this:
No.4 Mk.1 (F)= No.4 Mk 1 (F)

12/4 | PF1419= 12/4x PF xxxxx

The "wire loop" in front of the magazine isn't a sling swivel BTW its an old attachment originally for magazine chains & later for a canvas cover to keep the bolt covered.



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: MustanGrande
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 8:25am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

Its been re-stamped I think. The second digit of the year is missing it should read "12(month)/ 4x (the X being the second digit of the year.

The "ENGLAND" is a U.S. pre 1968 import stamp & so they re created a new serial number for it.
Before the change might it have looked like this:
No.4 Mk.1 (F)= No.4 Mk 1 (F)

12/4 | PF1419= 12/4x PF xxxxx

The "wire loop" in front of the magazine isn't a sling swivel BTW its an old attachment originally for magazine chains & later for a canvas cover to keep the bolt covered.



It's difficult to see the receiver stampings, but I was able to find the last digit.  (Seems there was some sort of really tough black paint applied over the markings)  It reads
No.4 Ml.1 (F)
12/47 | PF 1419

The 4-digit serial appears on the receiver, the wrist, and the bottom of the magazine.  This seems very odd to me, as I had read that nearly all no.4s (And all Fazakerleys) had 5-digit serials.  Perhaps because the "PF" prefix and the (F) in the model name indicate Fazakerley manufacture, they did away with the 1st-digit manufacturer code?  PF xxxx instead of PF 2xxxx?


Also, I've been unable to locate a serial number on the bolt.  Where would I look to find one?  There is a stamping in the "hollow" on the underside of the bolt handle, that looks like this:
F
47
This would seem to indicate "Fazakerley, 1947.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 9:05am
oooh nice! I'd fancy that..Look- you better send it up here to me, so it doesn't get swallowed up by a Florida sinkhole. It will be safe with me, I promise.
Hoadie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: MustanGrande
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 10:04am
Thanks Hoadie, but I think I'll be able to keep it nice and safe for now.  LOL


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 17 2013 at 9:05pm
As far as I know all Fazakerly-made rifles were elecrtropenciled on the receiver left side, none were supposed to have been stamped on the butt socket ever.
'course with an Enfield anythings possible!


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: MustanGrande
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 6:18am
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

As far as I know all Fazakerly-made rifles were elecrtropenciled on the receiver left side, none were supposed to have been stamped on the butt socket ever.
'course with an Enfield anythings possible!
The marking on the socket is definitely stamped, and deep.  The receiver, however, appears to be electro-penciled.  If it is, the person doing the numbering had exceptionally good handwriting.  That would explain why it was filled in so easily by the paint.






Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 6:42am
number should be on the bolt handle , the early PF series of serials were post war and this is mkI [pre-mk2 changeover around PF8xxxxin '49 ] 
this is also pre-cxontract rifle production , thats when the PF rifles can be catagorized to countries like the irish rifles , 



Posted By: MustanGrande
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 9:10am
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

number should be on the bolt handle , the early PF series of serials were post war and this is mkI [pre-mk2 changeover around PF8xxxxin '49 ] 
this is also pre-cxontract rifle production , thats when the PF rifles can be catagorized to countries like the irish rifles , 


Unfortunately, there don't appear to be any corresponding serial numbers on the bolt handle.

The stamping F.104 can be seen on the bolt body and the flat at the top of the handle.  I'm not sure what this means.



In the hollow on the underside of the bolt handle is the F over 47 stamping.



And on the back, where one would normally find a serial number for the bolt, there are deep but incomplete markings.  It appears there was once a serial stamped here, but it was either mis-stamped, resulting in an incomplete mark, was filled in with paint, or was ground off for whatever reason.



The more I look at the marks on this rifle, the less sense they seem to make.



Posted By: MustanGrande
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 1:41pm
Found another mark that looks somewhat important.  On the top of the nose cap, there's a stamping that reads "SN."  On the underside of the nose cap, there is a marking that reads "N67"

Does that ring a bell for anyone?







Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: November 18 2013 at 9:16pm
The "F47" means it was made at Fazakerly in 1947. It may not have been fitted to a rifle immediately as several of us have bolts with similar stamps but the rifles are a different date & the bolts serial numbered to match them. My guess is that bolts were made, inspected & stamped. Then they were stored till a bolt was needed for a rifle at which point they were pulled from stores, fitted individually then serial numbered to that rifle.
Not just bolts, but all sorts of parts have stamps that differ from the date on the finished rifle.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)



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