Wandering zero in the No. 5 Mk. 1
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Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7122
Printed Date: March 26 2026 at 4:31pm
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Topic: Wandering zero in the No. 5 Mk. 1
Posted By: rico567
Subject: Wandering zero in the No. 5 Mk. 1
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:46am
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Page 112 in this month's American Rifleman has a rather nice piece on the "Jungle Carbine." In it, it is stated as fact that this rifle suffers from a "wandering zero" due to metal removed in the manufacturing process to lighten the piece. I would like input from the expert opinion on this board as to some idea of the accuracy I might expect from my No. 5 Mk. 1. The best I've ever seen is about 8" at 100 yards, whether I'm firing military surplus or reloads.
------------- "Arms and the man I sing." -Virgil, The Æneid |
Replies:
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 7:20am
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I'm getting about 5" @ 100yds. Incidentally the whole "wandering zero" thing is pretty undefined at best. I recently went checking on exactly what the symptoms of a No5 with a "wandering zero" were. No one knew. There was no definitive answer to what exactly comprised the problem & very few had even experienced something they could attribute to "wandering zero", so I'm inclined to think its more urban myth than reality. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: rico567
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 8:03am
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This is good to hear. I'm going to proceed on the basis that it's an urban myth, and try some things that have worked for me in the past. In particular, since this rifle has an aftermarket stock, I'm going to relieve the barrel channel in the stock back to where it widens out into the chamber so that the barrel will free-float. I've done glass bedding, but from the looks of the SMLE action, this will prove sketchy at best. ------------- "Arms and the man I sing." -Virgil, The Æneid |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 8:44am
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I just went through this myself. http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7044" rel="nofollow - http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7044
http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7027&KW=No5&PID=68227#68227" rel="nofollow - http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7027&KW=No5&PID=68227#68227
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 9:00am
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What I found was that its a 3 stage process to get the best from a No5. Stage one: Fix what "Bubba did before you got it". In my case it was trying to not have the barrel bedded fore, aft & middle. & absolutely not glass bedding off center & canted!  I ended up having to replace the wood & start over with a sporter stock. Stage two: find out where its not bedding "right". In my case there wasn't enough tension at the rear of the action to pull the metal up into the wood to lock it in place. That was a combination of adding a little depth to the rear upper part of the stock where it bears on the bottom of the action & adding a couple of fillets to the front bedding face of the area to push back into the butt socket. This changed the angle of the front of the bedding so I added a shim to the lower area where the trigger guard mounts to the "King" screw & reworking so the sleeve applied a limited crush to the fit. Step 3: The front of the receiver & the breech of the barrel. That took 3 shims to get "right" one for the lower front wood-to metal fit & 2 more to bed the first 1" of the barrel at the bottom center ONLY. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: sells101
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 1:22pm
| I read an article awhile back by an actual ww2 british armour , if I can find it again I will post the website, in short he said some had it and they never did find a fix for the problem. |
Posted By: sells101
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 1:38pm
| The sporter I have will shoot about 3in at 100yd but only if I let the barrel get completely cold between shots. That's with a 2x7 scope on it. That's the only way I can any consistency, even if I take 5 minutes between shots they will spread out to atleast a 6in pattern. Does that sound like the stock might need to be reworked. |
Posted By: Homer
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 2:56pm
Peter Laidler on milsurps was a commonwealth armorer during these times and has written some interesting articles on the matter. Might be worth logging in over there and checking it out. |
Shamu wrote:Posted By: zonda
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 9:42pm
| Its really a load of rubbish-i have been using my No. 5 with a scope for hunting here in New Zealand for more than 40 years and have never had any sign of a "wandering zero". Why a No. 5? Never felt the need to change and its always a good debating point on a rainy day in the hut. :) |
Posted By: Bear43
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 6:02am
| It did happen. Go over to Milsurps.com and talk to the armorer's that dealt with the No 5 in Malaya and such. In particular read Peter Laidler's article on the subject. From what I have gathered on the topic is that it was seen in a relatively small number of rifles, but it was seen. There were a multitude of reasons but they would fix the weapon and then put them back into service or if the issue could not be rectified the rifle was stripped for parts. It seems that anytime the wandering zero was noted there was something wrong with the weapon causing it. The reason we don't see it today is because the rifles that showed signs of the wandering zero were either fixed or stripped for parts. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 9:20am
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Makes perfect sense to me. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 2:30pm
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i trust peters comments here , but ill be honest , ive always suspected the same kind of troop rejection that we experienced switching from the M1903 to the garand and carbine , then again when the m14 was replaced by the m16 , not to belittle a real problem ....would love to see more proof before actually joining in on the bash
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Posted By: gilgsn
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 6:31am
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he!!o. I've had two No5s, the last one bought a week ago, the first one around 2011, sold since. Since I shot my new one only once, I can't tell if it has the wandering zero yet. The old one did not exhibit any zeroing problem, but it was hard to tell since my groups were around ten inches at 100yrds, not good. Even if the zero had moved a couple inches between sessions, I probably would not have been able to tell, but although large, the groups were always well centered, so probably not. My new No5 seems to group within two to three inches at 100m, much better. Time will tell if the zero will wander, but somehow I doubt it. I suspect few surviving No5s have that problem. Wandering zero, mind you, has nothing to do with group size. It is about whether the point of impact shifts between uses or not. As a side note, I found some old fired brass from my first rifle, on which I could not close the bolt of my new one, which makes me think that it had way more shots fired through... In any case I am very happy about my latest acquisition, and still wish I hadn't sold the first one. I certainly wouldn't consider the wandering zero in deciding whether I would buy a No5 or not... Gil.
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 12:21pm
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Those that "know" will tell you the wandering zero is mythical. Personally, I don't know what to believe. I have never been able to hit anything with mine - yet my late hunting pard would pick it up, fire it & pronounce it "spot on". He could hit stuff...I aint bin able. ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 1:58pm
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It is not a myth. E.G.B Reynolds wrote about it in his book “The Lee Enfield Rifle” and he was involved in trials at Enfield that attempted to find a solution. A reliable fix was not found, and not all No. 5 carbines exhibited the problem. A “wandering zero” is just what it sounds like, a change in the group mean point of impact over time, either as the barrel heats up or changing over a longer period of time.
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Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 17 2024 at 3:33pm
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Some showed this issue. Any that did were sent back for repair. If they both had it & it could be cured, then they were returned to service. If base workshops couldn't fix it that rifle was "condemned" & stripped for parts. Because of this there was a kind of "evolution" where only the good survived. There are some out there I agree, Hoadie's being one maybe, but most simply were discovered & eliminated.
------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 25 2024 at 6:21pm
| it was designed as minute of man and performs as that , i see the points on using it as a target rifle , these were meant to be war rifles not target rifles tho , mine worked fine at 50-100 yards , never used it past that so i am not a good judge of that , i had two - an early BSA that was less acurate and a late FAZ that was far better , i think results will vary |
Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 26 2024 at 8:59am
| Mine can consistently put 'em in a six inch paper plate @ 100 yds. Good enough for me! |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 26 2024 at 2:08pm
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Mine is sported but its on a par with my SMLE for accuracy. Not quite as good as the No4,but perfectly acceptable for me. ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 4:17am
 %#*K%!! Wandering zero my Haggis!!I'm convinced mine is possesed & doesn't like me! Ever since I'v e had it, it's made a better club than a rifle in my hands!! Yet others can pick it up - shoot & pronounce it "spot on".  Heathens! Makes me think it has to be me!  I don't have this problem with my other shootin irons!  (If I didn't know better I'd say Paddy put a curse on it...but it's bin goin on longer than I've been puttin up with paddy!) ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 1:35pm
My No5 is good for 3 or 4 shots then the barrel gets warm and it goes to he!! in a hand basket, It is more of a pattern than a group. ------------- Have a Nice Day If already having a nice day please disregard |
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 2:14pm
White Rhino did it as I paid him to. ------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts. |
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 2:19pm
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Maybe an exorcism (in French perhaps)? ------------- Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force) |
Posted By: Canuck
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 2:24pm
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Tabernak! ------------- Castles made of sand slip into the sea.....eventually |
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 2:42pm
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Only if she is a Virgin and never shot a gun. ------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts. |
Posted By: Mayhem
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 4:32pm
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You need a young priest and an old priest. ------------- .303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889 |
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 6:35pm
| huh , that was not where my head went |
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: September 27 2024 at 6:52pm
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To much information. ------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts. |
Posted By: shiloh
Date Posted: September 28 2024 at 2:53am
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My No5 with an M14 muzzle break retrofitted, shoots pretty consistent out to 100yrds with reduced loads. Though with full 174gr loads its opening up as the barrel warms, as with SW28fan 3-5 shots. Hopefully the fire fight dosn`t last longer than that....lols
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: September 28 2024 at 4:52am
Well, in my case - if a fire-fight breaks out, I'll hide until the enemy is good & close...then I'll HIT HIM with it.(It makes for a good club in my hands!  )------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Mayhem
Date Posted: September 28 2024 at 5:23pm
It was a quote from one of the Austin Powers movies, in which Dr. Evil's chair starts spinning out of control and he says "I need an old priest and a young priest. The power of Christ compels you!" This comment is a reference to "The Exorcist" in which an old priest and a young priest attempt to stop Linda Blair's head from spinning around.
------------- .303 - Helping Englishmen express their feelings since 1889 |
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: September 29 2024 at 6:23am
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Might need a bunch. ------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts. |
Posted By: 303carbine
Date Posted: September 30 2024 at 11:08am
I think the only wandering zero is the dude who thought that nonsense up.
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Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: September 30 2024 at 12:05pm
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Well, I wouldn’t call Maj EGB Reynolds a dude who made things up. But, not all rifles had the behavior either, which is why it remains a mystery with no known root cause. |
Posted By: Strangely Brown
Date Posted: September 30 2024 at 2:14pm
Nor would I Geoff; his contribution to the world of shooting in the UK is unmeasurable. An overly powerful cartridge in a "lightened" rifle is never a good recipe! ------------- Mick |
Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: September 30 2024 at 3:47pm
| That being said, for its time, the No.5 was pretty interesting. Probably did what it was designed to do. Shoot a round that was plentiful, most likely hit and immobilize anything out to 75 yards on a regular basis. If I was fighting in dense bush with a bolt rifle during this time period, this would be my weapon of choice. |
Posted By: Strangely Brown
Date Posted: September 30 2024 at 3:51pm
I've often wondered what it would shoot like re-chambered to .280 British had the EM2 been accepted by NATO in 1947. ------------- Mick |
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: September 30 2024 at 4:33pm
Interesting idea. ------------- Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts. |