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Sight Adjustment Tool

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Category: Enfields
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Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
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Topic: Sight Adjustment Tool
Posted By: Homer
Subject: Sight Adjustment Tool
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 4:36am
There always seems to be discussion on front sight adjustment but I've never seen one posted like that on the right. Anyone else got one?
 



Replies:
Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 7:32am
Where did you find this one?

Never see one like this one before.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 8:56am
Never seen one like it.
It might be a good basis for the "unhiversal" one I'm dreaming of though.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 12:04pm
That one on the right looks like it might be good for the SMLE's with the full ears on the nose cap; what a great idea. I've been thinking about how to make one for my No1 rifle, that looks just the ticket!

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Homer
Date Posted: October 14 2014 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by paddyofurniture paddyofurniture wrote:

Where did you find this one?

Never see one like this one before.


At a gun shop about four years back but I'd never seen one before that and havent seen another since. It works very well, not quite as positive as the other one pictured, but certainly 100 times better than a hammer and punch and you don't have to remove the nose cap. If I was making sight tools, this is the one I'd be making.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 15 2014 at 4:22am
Once you've measured how far the tip moves for one turn of the screw then your good to go. Definately need to see about making something like this.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 25 2014 at 11:26am
Or you could buy one of these.
 
Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: MaxP
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 2:28am
It strikes me as strange that of all the Lee Enfields I have owned and fired, including rifles I have re barrelled.... I have only once had to adjust a foresight... And I have NEVER had to change a sight blade height!

Is it possible that only the rifles in the US have sighting problems, and the possible reason for this is the almost exclusive use of 'factory' ammunition as opposed the MkVII ball the rifles were designed and sighted for. Maybe it has come about from too many home gunsmiths messing with them when they didn't perform with ammo they were never intended to use?

Not wanting to derail your thread, Homer, but is there any market for a home designed sight tool anywhere but the US?


Posted By: Homer
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 3:19am
MaxP
Interesting you posted that, because it was only last weekend I was at Belmont range having a chat with three older gents shooting enfields out to 200 metres. I asked them how they adjusted the sights and if they used a tool and not one of them had had to make adjustments or owned a tool. I didn't ask what type of ammo they were using.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 4:49am
I had to replace the wood on my NO5. The factory wood had been sanded to the point it no longer fit & "glass bedded" so poorly it shot 18" patterns, not groups.
When the new stock was fitted it shot (probably like the original before it was messed up) to a different point of aim.

The No4 Mk2 still shoots dead on to point of aim as it left the factory though.

AS for shooting "factory" instead of "Surplus" that's a myth. If we can find or store surplus we shoot it. Unfortunately its hard to find find the last few years so we shoot what we can get. The alternative would be to gloat over unused rifles or shoot factory.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 7:28am
Agreed that once it's set properly, the front blade should not need adjusting; however in reality it may have been adjusted by someone to correct another fault. 
For example; my No1MkIII* was consistently shooting to the left and the front blade was already adjusted to the left by the previous owner. The actual fault was the rear sight blade was moving sideways due to wear on the fulcrum.
 With the new rear sight the rifle shot right of centre (due to the front blade being set too far left) now the front blade is centered and it's spot on. Both my No8's required very minor adjustments to get the centre line. Once set though, no need to touch it again.
I don't think the type of ammunition would have any effect apart from elevation change; which can be easily compensated for on the rear sight.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: SW28fan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 9:47am
Part of reason for folks in the U.S. needing to adjust front sights is that most of the ex Military rifles imported here for the last few decades have come from Countries that got them as aid after WWII. They often show signs of abuse or neglect.

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Have a Nice Day
If already having a nice day please disregard


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 9:49am
Guys: Zed is right on the type of ammo not affecting windage to any large degree.  But only shooting surplus ammo must greatly restrict your shooting.  Don't any of you guys Reload?
If your front sight is off then it needs to be adjusted.  Many won't need any adjustment, and especially if they weren't banged around or messed with. However if it is off, it needs to be set correctly.  This was obviously an Armorers job, and they had the tool to do it predictably so they didn't waste ammunition chasing the sight around.
 
I had to adjust my gun to the right 3.5" when I first shot it and I originally attributed this to the fact the gun came with a Mk2 rear sight and I installed a Mk1 sight.  However my Front sight is so cockeyed that it needs the blade off to the left in order to be aligned with the centerline of the barrel. See Pic  This is actually why it needed to be moved. Funny as I completely disassembled this gun and didn't notice the front sight until I started messing with it.
 
 
I was able to make that adjustment in just one move because I had made a tool that allowed a precise adjustment. I am a machinist and I can do this.  I'm sure others could to.  The idea of using a drift punch and hammer to do this is what a Bubba would do and would probably require divine intervention or blind luck to extract any degree of success in a reasonable amount of time.
 
Now that I have installed the Redfield Olympic rear sight I will probably won't have to move it again as that sight has a windage adjustment and that was the reason why I installed it in the first place.
 
There should be very little if any windage correction necessary between Ammo types.  Differences in ammunition generally result in elevation changes due to differences in Velocity, but that doesn't affect windage. Granted,,, sometimes it does make small changes however we are talking less than .5" at 100 yards.  With these rifles and their sighting systems it would be hard to detect what caused a 1/2" deflection in the shot.
 
I have a friend in NZ who has done extensive accuracy testing with Enfield rifles of all series, and all available ammo types. He has concluded that a really good Enfield is a 2-3MOA gun, and that was the benchmark for selecting guns to be raised to the "T" level at the factory.  Most are 3-4MOA and some are considerably worse than that. 4 MOA is 12" at 300 yards and still a viable Battle Weapon.
 
Even today most Military AR's (M4) shoot no better than 3 MOA. Sure they can be made to shoot well but with Iron sights or even Red Dot sights this is about as good as it gets. With Red Dot sights the average guy will never get a group smaller than the diameter of the dot.
 
With accuracy in this regime it would be hard to detect the need for minor windage changes. But I would be willing to bet that a WWII British Armorer who did nothing all day but sight in rifles, would have shot a 3 shot group and made a windage correction with his tool and then not even check it. 
 
After doing a few hundred rifles I think you'd get the hang of it.
 
With the #4 rifles 29" sight radius,,, .008 = 1 MOA.
 
My tool has 1/4-28 threads which result in .036 movement per revolution.  Since I use bolts with either Hex heads or Allen heads it is easy to move the sight one "flat," which is .006" or 3/4 MOA .
 
Another consideration that will help you guys extract a little more accuracy is the type of target you shoot at.  The front sight blade of a #4 is .050 wide.  That is 6MOA with this sight radius.  if you use a target spot that is a 6" square for 100 yards or 3" for 50,  it makes it much easier to index your front sight on the target by lining the blade up with the sides of the square and the top of the sight to the bottom of the square.  Obviously this must be done off a solid rest with a bag under the buttstock as well.  When you are cutting your sights to this degree no movement of the gun is acceptable.
 
Hope some of this helps you achieve greatness or at least have more fun.
 
Randy
 
 


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:02am
Probably 1/2 the members on here reload.
Many are happy with S&B, PPU or other commercial makers. My point originally was that the myth of who shoots what was just that, a myth.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Long branch
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:10am
PRVI Partizan 174gr FMJBT shoots exactly 10" high and 6" left from both my 1950 longbranch and 1948 Fazakerly no4s. They clock at about 2300 fps. My handloads with 174gr BTHPs shoot 3" high and dead center. I don't know the muzzle velocity, but I bet it's in the 2450 range. It never fails that a slower load with the same weight bullet will shoot high (counter-intuitive. I know) and off center.


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:19am
It was starting to sound like most guys were only shooting "Surplus Ammo."  That would surely limit the fun here in the US.
 
Friday Afternoon I made 480 of these,,,  Which will keep me shooting for another couple of months after which I should have a good Cast Boolit Load sussed out. Got a few things to try on that one.  These will be used primarily for shooting Short Range Silhouette Matches.  50,100,150,and 200 Meters.
 
 
I am still waiting for someone to get the Hornady 174 gr RN's in stock so I can get that load finalized and by then the 215 gr Woodleigh's should be here.
 
That would conclude load development for this gun and I would then just shoot the he!! out of it.
 
Glad to hear there are reloaders here.  1/2 the fun.
 
Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:28am
LongBranch:  In Pistols,,, Slower loads always shoot high.  Reason being, that they spend more time in the barrel during Recoil, and thus the muzzle is pointing higher by the time the boolit exits.
 
A similar point could be made for shooting from an unsupported position with a rifle where the gun is rocking you back during recoil thus making the muzzle rise and thus the shot with it. 
 
It would take a movement of about .050 or slightly less than 1/16th " to make a 6" change in the shot at 100 yards.
 
This same phenomenon could be extended to the windage offset.  A rifle with a left hand twist will move the buttstock away from your cheek in recoil which would push the muzzle to the left.
 
This is entirely in the realm of believability.
 
Typically off a rest the slower rounds will shoot lower simply because of the trajectory's decay. 
 
Sounds like Rocket Science, huh?
 
Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 10:56am
It have read (book not internet) that flexing of the Enfield barrel's is what makes the slow shots impact high and the higher velocity low at shorter distances. It was apparently well known amongst shooters when these rifles were used in long range competitions and the effect was that at longer distances the path's would cross, making the rifle more "accurate at 600 yards than at 200 yards.
 I have seen this personally when chronometering hand loads against the PRVI factory rounds in my No1MkIII*, although I have not seen any lateral deviation caused by the velocity.
If the rifle throw's certain velocities to one side I would first off, get someone else to shoot it and see if they have the same results, then I would be checking out the fit of the fore arm around the barrel and also the contact at the draws etc. 


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Long branch
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 11:23am
All rifles do this. The reason being that the bullet has to rise up into the line of sight. The slower bullet has more time to rise before it impacts. This has held true for every surplus rifle I've loaded for. A friend of mine brought me some ammunition he was loading for the wounded warriors project. He didn't have a 303 and wanted me to test it. It was loaded with BLc(2). It was hot stuff (BLc(2) generates higher velocities without overpressure). It shot very low and far right. Now, if you load two different weights and/or types of bullets for the rifle, all that goes out the window. This effect is magnified in pistols because of the recoil characteristics, and so it shows up at shorter ranges.


Posted By: MaxP
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 12:09pm
Hmmmm... seems I will have to set some time aside later to address some facts that are either missing or totally wrong here...
Will get back in the next day or two.


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 12:30pm
Max:  it does take a while for responses from DU to get here from there. Clown  Randy

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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 1:24pm
Its one of those oft quoted & even more frequently misunderstood myths.

I does NOT mean the rifle shoots tighter groups at longer ranges. Just that it disperses less than you'd expect as range increases.

For a long time expert shooter kept the .303 for 1,000 yd shots, but shot the 7.62 out to 650 Yds.

Why?

Well, because the .303 out-shot the 7.62 at that distance. I've heard many theories why  but it just did in My Opinion, I neither know, nor care why if it could get me a higher score "out there" (where matches are won, or lost), then I'll do it.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Long branch
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 1:42pm
That's more a confusion about the term "Minute of angle". If someone says their rifle shoots 2MOA at 100 yards and 1.5MOA at 600 yards, the average person thinks that means 2" @100 and 1.5"@600.

There's also some confusion about the term "accuracy". I was zeroing a rifle at the local range once. Someone watched as I shot a 1" group 4" away from the dot at 100 yards. He said "that rifle don't shoot good. You need ta let somebody look at that."


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:35am
They always used to differentiate shooting for group & shooting for score back when i shot with the RAF.
Trying to put them all in the bull was "scoring", but shooting for a group (wherever) was "application". The goal was to be aware of the different way to use sights for the different purposes.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: MaxP
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:59am
Ok, got a few minutes, thought I'd start with this old chestnut... as it leads to the rest of the story, probably a good place to start....

quotes from somewhere above....

1. I don't think the type of ammunition would have any effect apart from elevation change; which can be easily compensated for on the rear sight.
2. .... is right on the type of ammo not affecting windage to any large degree.
3. There should be very little if any windage correction necessary between Ammo types.  Differences in ammunition generally result in elevation changes due to differences in Velocity, but that doesn't affect windage
4. My point originally was that the myth of who shoots what was just that, a myth.
5. It never fails that a slower load with the same weight bullet will shoot high (counter-intuitive. I know) and off center.
6. Typically off a rest the slower rounds will shoot lower simply because of the trajectory's decay.


Ok, please take a minute to absorb this... It is probably the simplest explanation I can find... I will expand on it...

From the moment that trigger is pressed and the firing pin strikes the primer until the bullet leaves the muzzle, a series of many vibrational impulses begin in the rifle, all of which are transmitted to the barrel in various magnitudes. These include such minor things as; the trigger sear releasing the firing pin, the firing pin moving forward, striking the primer, and the cartridge being moved forward. The powder then begins to ignite, and the bullet starts moving forward and engages the rifling. Because of the twist of the rifling, the bullet while it is being propelled forward, begins to spin imparting a small but measurable torque, but more importantly as it traverses the barrel it also sets up a circular vibrational pattern, or arc. The heat of the burning powder along with the pressure wave generated by the expanding gasses start another vibrational pattern that is induced into the barrel. All of these movements cause the barrel to stress and vibrate with a number of different harmonic patterns which if not controlled by some means cause each projectile to leave the muzzle at a slightly different point in the vibrational arc. Some people speak about the "whip" of the barrel, which would imply to some, that the barrel simply vibrates up and down like a buggy whip. Although there are some of the vibrations that are traveling in this direction, the main vibrations are circular. If this were not true, then a 3 shot group from a rifle would always be in a vertical string. This would be because, one would leave at the bottom of the "whipping action", one would leave from the center and one from the upper travel of the "whip". As we all know this seldom occurs, and if it does, it is usually caused by the barrel being under a heavy stress, such as way to much pressure exerted against it, caused by improper bedding, usually of the barrel. Most 3 shot groups you will see will be virtually triangular in shape, this is caused because as the barrel vibrates through its "circular arc" one bullet leaves the muzzle at say 12 o’clock, another at say 4 o’clock and the third at maybe 8 o’clock. The larger the arc of the barrel, the less accurate the rifle will be, and the larger the triangle. As a rule the less mass a barrel has, (the thinner) the more it is affected by the vibrations, this is the reason that a "heavy" barrel seems to shoot more consistently than a sporter barrel, and is also easier to tune.

Ok, so now barrel whip is actually circular in motion. The art (yes, ART) of accurising a rifle is in taming those vibrations. Tame the circular motion. As said above, the tighter the circle the smaller the group. The circular motion varies during each shot. The aim is to have the projectile exiting the barrel during the period where it's motion is at it's smallest arc
You have possibly heard or seen written that the Lee Enfield barrel is tuned for MkVII ammunition, that is a 174gn spitzer projectile exiting the muzzle at 2440 fps. The correct bedding combination of well fitted factory woodwork will dampen the vibrations to the point that the MkVII ammunition is departing the barrel at the point where the muzzle is in it's smallest arc. (they worked all this out over a hundred years ago)

If your ammunition is very accurately hand loaded, then it can improve the results even further because it will be exiting at near the same point of the arc every time so less dependent on having a small arc for accuracy.

Now... add some other ammunition, say a 150gn pill doing 2600fps.
The likelihood that it will cause the exact same vibration pattern and exit at the exact same point in the muzzle's circular motion is not good. In fact it might even be exiting the barrel while it is at it's most violent motion. With ammunition that isn't finely measured, the result will be a noticeably larger group (hey, there's something we've all probably seen in a rimfiree with different ammo, now we know what heavily contributed to it) But if you are using good quality handloads, then you might see it group reasonably well, but print a few inches off to the side because they have all departed the barrel during the time it was at it's furthest off to that side.

If you want proof of all this, just ask any benchrest shooter for a look at his load development targets. He might be shooting for tight group size primarily, but the groups will all be centered on different parts of the target. Once he confirms his tightest group, the sights can be adjusted to bring that load on centre.
If barrel whip were up and down, they would be in line above one another.

To touch on the light load shooting high... There are a couple of possibilities. The pills are exiting at the extreme top of a violent muzzle arc.
The load is so light the powder is spread along the case exposing a large surface on top, and giving a flash over ignition. The pressures that can be produced by such a change to the burn pattern could change the barrel whip and the POI quite drastically.

Now, back to something I have said... these rifles are tuned for MkVII ammunition. If the rifle is in good nic and has not been messed with in the bedding, it should shoot to the sights both windage and elevation with MkVII.
If you or anyone else before you used any other ammo and adjusted the sights because it was way off, it was because the rifle was not tuned for the ammo you used. If it appears to be in good nic but you cannot get it to group (not centre, group) no matter what you use including MkVII, then it's possible the bedding is out as well.

One more favourite of mine...

Sure they can be made to shoot well but with Iron sights or even Red Dot sights this is about as good as it gets

Could not be further from the truth. The sights have nothing to do with the accuracy (as long as they work) You can stick a rifle in an Enfield Rest and fire ten shot groups all day and get the best accuracy possible without even looking along the barrel. It's only when you add the human element that the rifle is not capable of it's best.


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 9:05am
MaxP: Great research above and that is a very good description of what happens when a shot is fired.
In defense of my comment.
Sure they can be made to shoot well but with http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=5316&m=1665981347&q=n&rdgt=1414407057&it=1414839057&et=1415011857&priceret=20.49&pg=~~3&k=8ff605bd57c26593caa85dc7b7c79800&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB00N1SHVHS%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB00N1SHVHS3341556%3Fsmid%3DA1ZBC4ACE6HAEJ%26tag%3Dpgmp%2D1585%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Ddf0%26creative%3D395109%26creativeASIN%3DB00N1SHVHS&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~" rel="nofollow - Iron sights or even http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=402&m=1283071742&q=n&rdgt=1414406658&it=1414838658&et=1415011458&priceret=234.73&pg=~~3&k=f580278e5394cde141ba57fa7a62228a&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB00D4L4D0A%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB00D4L4D0A3347188%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dpg%2D1585%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Ddf0%26creative%3D395097%26creativeASIN%3DB00D4L4D0A&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~" rel="nofollow - Red Dot sights this is about as good as it gets.     
I was referring to AR's in that sentence, and with those sighting systems 3-4MOA IS about as good as it gets in the real world.  And that is good enough for the intended purpose of the weapon.

Could not be further from the truth. The sights have nothing to do with the accuracy (as long as they work) You can stick a rifle in an Enfield Rest and fire ten shot groups all day and get the best accuracy possible without even looking along the barrel. It's only when you add the human element that the rifle is not capable of it's best. 
 
I agree with most all of what you say, however you are talking about "mechanical accuracy" not "field accuracy."
 
Most of us shoot while actually holding the gun. (Bench rest shooters aside) Thus the Human Element always affects the guns accuracy. If you were able to shoot from an Enfield Rest all the time there would be no need for sights.
 
Being able to index the sights to the target the same way everytime is what defines Field Accuracy , and the sights are the interface between the person and the gun, However no matter how accurate the rifle is mechanically, the level of precision of the sighting system and your ability to use that system will limit that accuracy in the field. 
 
Certain types of sighting systems are simply more accurate than others, everybody can agree with this point I'm sure.
 
If you have a gun that shoots .5 MOA and you install a Red Dot Sight with a 3 MOA dot the best you will see is about 3 MOA, unless you figure out a way to index that dot on the target in the exact same place every time.  We usually do this by indexing the dot at the 9 O'clock position on the outside edge of the target spot using the edge of the dot.
 
If you try to center the dot on the target the best you will shoot is 3MOA. There is no specific indexing point.  A Red Dot sighting system is more about Speed of Target acquisition than High Precision Shot Placement.  Conversely a High Power Target Scope allows you to precisely index the crosshairs on a specific point on the target and better use the inherent accuracy of the gun..
 
If you don't include the man in the equation the rifles mechanical accuracy means nothing as a gun can't shoot itself.
 
Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 9:29am
Also true, My rifle shoots to POA & makes consistent 1 3/4" groups for 10 rounds at 100 yds. I wish I did!Cry


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 10:54am
Max P, thank you very much for taking the time to explain that. It does make sense and will probably help improve my understanding when trying different loads.  At present I have 2x.303's that I reload for. I have only been using 174gr Spitzer type Sierra orgives and in my No4 rifle I aimed to get the velocity as close to 2440 ft/sec. At this speed it seems to work very well; it requires 39,3 grains of Tubal3000 in this rifle.
 However with the No1 rifle which is a more recent purchase I've found that the same load is too fast and grouping much larger than the factory PRVI rounds that I bought to compare. (PRVI chrono at 2380 ft/sec in this rifle).
Obviously different powder in the PRVI so difficult to compare, but the bullet weight is the same.
I have more testing to do on this rifle; but have found that 37,4 grains of Tubal 3000 shoots similar groups to the PRVI at a speed of around 2415ft/sec. 
I am going to try a slightly slower powder in this rifle as I believe the Tubal 3000 is maybe a bit to hot for the thinner No1 barrel. I see were that experiment leads. 

Zed.



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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Long branch
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 2:20pm
Tubal3000. That's a Nobel Sport powder right? I hear good things about it.


Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 3:16pm
My Enfield Rifle No. 4 Mk2 is about 2.5 minutes to the right at 200 yards.  I found this on Ebay along with similar tools for other Enfields.  It's $25.00  What do you think?
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Enfield-No-4-sight-adjustment-tool-SMLE-British-/251637531219?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a96c40253" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Enfield-No-4-sight-adjustment-tool-SMLE-British-/251637531219?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a96c40253
 
I reloaded with .311 174 gr Sierra Match Kings HPBT and Hornady .3105 174 gr FMJBT.
Windage results were almost the same for both bullets.


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"a rumor is half way around the world before the truth gets it's boots on." (Mark Twain)


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 3:51pm
25-5 I saw that one before I made mine.  That one has to have the Sight Protector Removed to work.
 
It also needs to be Deburred.  Which one looks better?  Mine is $10 more but you'll save that much not having to buy band aids after you use it.
 
Also are you talking 2.5" or 2.5 MOA?   At 200 yards 2.5 MOA would be 5"
 
Randy
 
 
 
 


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:13pm
MOA.  Somehow I didn't realize you had them for sale.  I suppose I didn't read everything.  So much about the ammo etc.  At 100 yds I would just use a bit of left Kentucky windage and plunk em in, but at 200 it's more difficult.
Yes, I would like one of yours.  Let me know what you need.


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"a rumor is half way around the world before the truth gets it's boots on." (Mark Twain)


Posted By: White Rhino
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:27pm
I think Mine are waiting on me at the house right now!!! I have one more day and a wake up, then I get on that Yeller Bird and head to the beach !!!!!



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"White Rhino"

"Everybody's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer." --W. C. Fields


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: October 28 2014 at 3:51am
Originally posted by Long branch Long branch wrote:

Tubal3000. That's a Nobel Sport powder right? I hear good things about it.

Yes that is correct. I find it works well in my No4 rifle but people here keep telling me to use Vitha vouri powder, saying it's more consistent batch to batch than the Nobel Sport. Problem is no one has any in stock and I believe the factory closed.
I have also heard that the Reload Swiss powder is worth a look, but again finding it locally is a problem.
Also I don't want too many variables at one time, it's to easy to loose the plot. I've just switched to Federal Match primers and also have some Semllier Bellot 180 grain orgives to test; so that's enough to be going on with.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 8:31am
25-5:  just PM me and I'll get one coming to you.
 
Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: 25-5
Date Posted: November 08 2014 at 10:04am
For a couple years shooting my Enfield Rifle No.4 Mk2, I have been holding to the left a couple inches at 100 yards.  Not too much of a problem, except I like 200 yards better.  Now, I was shooting kinda sorta five inches to the right.  I was annoyed after spending so much time on reloads.
Anyway, I PM'd W.R. Buchanan and had his tool in two days.  A well made tool as his pics above show.  Machinists are a persnickety lot.  A good thing, as the tool fits over the foresight protector like a glove and aligns the adjusting screws.  I followed the directions and moved the sight 2.25 MOA.
I went to the range yesterday and took the tool.  I did not need any further adjustment.  That was just luck, but, the tool would be easy to use at the range for any finite adjustments. 


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"a rumor is half way around the world before the truth gets it's boots on." (Mark Twain)


Posted By: Stevejo
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 9:52am
posting on an ancient thread here, but one question I have about the issue of “US Enfields” shooting so far off is, would it be that so many were sold here when the British government started liquidating them and several US companies would “sporterize” them?
I have a #1 mk 3 SMLE and it shoots 2 ft high at 100 yards. 
Even the 060 replacement sight won’t correct for that, so I’ll have to weld some material to it and trim to zero. 
(It is just a sporterized rifle, not a collector. No feinting please)


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Stevejo Stevejo wrote:

posting on an ancient thread here, but one question I have about the issue of “US Enfields” shooting so far off is, would it be that so many were sold here when the British government started liquidating them and several US companies would “sporterize” them?
I have a #1 mk 3 SMLE and it shoots 2 ft high at 100 yards. 
Even the 060 replacement sight won’t correct for that, so I’ll have to weld some material to it and trim to zero. 
(It is just a sporterized rifle, not a collector. No feinting please)

Just a question as I'm a bit confused

You talk about the "US Enfield", which is the No3 Mk1* but then go onto say its a No1 Mk3.

Are you talking about two different rifles or have you got the numbers mixed up, or am I mistaking what you mean by US Enfield ?




Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 1:21pm
This is an interesting old thread, hadn’t see it before.

I think the discussion was about the apparent need for front sight adjustments for LEs that are in the US (not a “US Enfield”).  Presumably because US shooters have messed with the rifles, or not shooting the ammunition they were “designed” to shoot, the Mk VII cartridge.  Well, the Mk 1 SMLE predated the Mk VII Cartridge by about 6 years...  

These rifles can be made to shoot exceptionally well with bullets other than the Mk VII 174 gr flat based bullet.  And yes, that likely will require a sight adjustment.  No big deal, although it is easier to adjust the front sight on a No. 4 rifle than on a No. 1.

Cutting down the forend to make a sporter alters the pressure on the barrel from the forend, essentially remove it. The barrel needs the forend to dampen vibration to obtain good accuracy?  If the bullet leaves the barrel when the muzzle is at, or near, the top of the vibration cycle the shots will be high.










Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 19 2020 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by Stevejo Stevejo wrote:

posting on an ancient thread here, but one question I have about the issue of “US Enfields” shooting so far off is, would it be that so many were sold here when the British government started liquidating them and several US companies would “sporterize” them?
I have a #1 mk 3 SMLE and it shoots 2 ft high at 100 yards. 
Even the 060 replacement sight won’t correct for that, so I’ll have to weld some material to it and trim to zero. 
(It is just a sporterized rifle, not a collector. No feinting please)

Just a question as I'm a bit confused

You talk about the "US Enfield", which is the No3 Mk1* but then go onto say its a No1 Mk3.

Are you talking about two different rifles or have you got the numbers mixed up, or am I mistaking what you mean by US Enfield ?


I think he's referring to the P-14, M1917 series. Those are frequently mentioned as U.S. Enfields.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 12:13am
Well, thanks guys, that makes it clear as mud :


I think the discussion was about the apparent need for front sight adjustments for LEs that are in the US (not a “US Enfield”).


I think he's referring to the P-14, M1917 series. Those are frequently mentioned as U.S. Enfields.

Beer



Posted By: pisco
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 2:38am
a good starting load is 16gr 2400, 4227


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 4:45am
Originally posted by MaxP MaxP wrote:

It strikes me as strange that of all the Lee Enfields I have owned and fired, including rifles I have re barrelled.... I have only once had to adjust a foresight... And I have NEVER had to change a sight blade height!

Is it possible that only the rifles in the US have sighting problems, and the possible reason for this is the almost exclusive use of 'factory' ammunition as opposed the MkVII ball the rifles were designed and sighted for. Maybe it has come about from too many home gunsmiths messing with them when they didn't perform with ammo they were never intended to use?

Not wanting to derail your thread, Homer, but is there any market for a home designed sight tool anywhere but the US?

Here’s where I got my interpretation that “US Enfields” was in reference to LE’s that are in the US, not M1917 rifles. 


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 6:30am
It could be either, the description is ambiguous.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 11:45am
OK,,,  I think someone got their numbers mixed up. But what the hey.

To clarify, my tool fits over the Front Sight Protector on a #4 Mk1 Rifle, It won't work on an earlier #1 Mk3 as the Front Sights are completely different.


As far as this being a American Problem easily 50% of my sales go to Canada,Europe and Aus. So it's not just an American Problem. Also I am selling about 2-3 a month so there is a market for them.

If you have a stock rear sight on your gun the only way to correct windage is by moving the Front Sight,,, Period.

Since the 29" Sight Radius results in .008 = 1 MOA  Good luck drifting it, and I hope you have plenty of ammo so you can chase it all over the place, and then settle for "Close Enough?".

With my tool you can make precise movements of the sight and get it exactly right,,, easily.

Front Sights (9 ea.) are available in .015 increments or 2 MOA increments and the intention is to sight the gun in so that the POI is dead on when the rear sight is set at 200 yards which is considered the "Mechanical Zero" for the rifle..  

This is done using the known Trajectory of Standard Ball Ammunition 

The Rear Sight is calibrated to yield the proper "elevation offsets" for that Ammo/Trajectory out to 1200 yards.

Change the ammo and everything changes. 

However if the Windage is dead on at 200 yards it should not change any significant amount thruout the range of the weapon. At that point it is only affected by the Wind which is the most significant "External Factor" in long range shooting.

Trajectory is influenced "Primarily" by Velocity and Ballistic Coefficient. Other factors enter in and have been factored in for a long time. The Rear Sight on a 1873 Trapdoor Springfield had the vertical movement actually at a sight angle and not perfectly vertical. This Offset was there to correct for the Coriolis Effect of the earth turning. Unfortunately it only worked in the Northern Hemisphere and only if you were firing south to north. 



Point being they've had this stuff figured out for about 200 years now.

Hope this helps 

Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: July 20 2020 at 3:43pm
Yes, “spin drift” does deflect the bullet as range increases.  For the rifles and bullets I shoot, I don’t see it out to 600 yards.  But, you will see a difference in RH vs LH twist barrels at 1000 yards, assuming you zeroed for 100 yards and shooting in no cross wind component.  

That is a handy tool, most certainly for the version of front sight base that does not have the reverse screw to loosen the dovetail.  


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

That is a handy tool, most certainly for the version of front sight base that does not have the reverse screw to loosen the dovetail.  

britrifles:  it will work for them too, you just have to loosen the screw first.

Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by Stevejo Stevejo wrote:

posting on an ancient thread here, but one question I have about the issue of “US Enfields” shooting so far off is, would it be that so many were sold here when the British government started liquidating them and several US companies would “sporterize” them?
I have a #1 mk 3 SMLE and it shoots 2 ft high at 100 yards. 
Even the 060 replacement sight won’t correct for that, so I’ll have to weld some material to it and trim to zero. 
(It is just a sporterized rifle, not a collector. No feinting please)

Actually Parker Hale was the biggest Sporterizer of those guns. I have 2 #4Mk1's and one is a Mk1* Long Branch made in Canada that one had a 2 groove barrel. It now has been rebored to .35-303.

The Mk1 was made into a Parker Hale "Standard Sporter" IE: least modified.  They got the hand guards removed and the barrels left Full Length which usually meant the barrel had not been ruined by over cleaning. My other gun was a Long Branch #4 Mk1* and was converted to the "Deluxe Sporter" configuration. The barrel was cut back to 22", no doubt to get rid of the abused muzzle crown, a PH Front Sight added, and the fore end got cut back and reshaped. Sling Swivels were also added.


These guns were perfectly serviceable Sporting / Hunting Rifles and were a good value if you got a good one. They were very popular both here and in Canada in the 1950's and were priced at $65 and $75. This was during a pretty serous recession which always seems to follow in the wake of a big war, and people weren't rolling in dough and needed to hunt to put meat on the table. Especially in Canada!

Kind of like where we will be pretty soon if things don't get better.

Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.


Posted By: Stevejo
Date Posted: July 21 2020 at 5:45pm
thanks for the good info. 
Honestly not sure of the origin of my “sporter” except what it used to be. #1 mk MIII BSA made in 1919 that my grandfather owned and probably paid $11 for. Lol. 
All I know is that it shoots ridiculously high. 
Any chance that removing the wood would effect the point of impact in that manner?
I’ve had the same issue with mosins and Mausers. 
Supposedly either the shooting doctrine of the day to “aim at their feet or belt buckle” or the russia doctrine (supposedly) of having the bayonet affixed all the time and the thing being zeroed with it in place. 
Really not sure about any of that, but I do know the barrel isn’t bent or anything of that nature. 


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: July 22 2020 at 12:07am
Originally posted by Stevejo Stevejo wrote:

.............. of having the bayonet affixed all the time and the thing being zeroed with it in place. 


The ammunition you use has a big effect on POI, not having properly bedded (full length) woodwork, a loose front-trigger-guard screw and many other little features will all affect POI


Todays Interesting Facts – The Effect On POI When A Bayonet Is Fixed

 

Source :

“Musketry Regulations Part 1”

1909 (With Amendments 1914)

Issued by the General Staff – War Office.

 

Summary :

With a SMLE & with MkVI ammunition there is no effect to the POI when the bayonet is fixed.

With a SMLE & with MkVII ammunition there is a 4 feet Rise in POI at 600 yds when the bayonet is fixed.

With a Lee Metford, or CLLE there is a 6 feet drop, and 2 feet to the right change in the POI at 600 yds when using MkVI ammunition with the bayonet fixed.

With a Lee Metford, or CLLE there is a negligible effect in the POI when using MkVII ammunition with the bayonet fixed.

 

YES – that is correct – with the CLLE / Lee Metford the POI is NOT AFFECTED when using MkVII with the bayonet fixed, but with the SMLE the POI is  NOT AFFECTED when using MkVI with the bayonet fixed..









Posted By: W.R.Buchanan
Date Posted: July 22 2020 at 10:52am
Parker Hale also did the same things to #1 Mk3's



If that gun is shooting that goofy there has to be something wrong. Having the bayonet fixed will only mess with the barrel harmonics. You wouldn't sight the gun in with the bayonet fixed if you expected any normal accuracy from it.

I didn't get what ammo you are using but I would suggest a readily available Factory ammo like from SGA Ammo/Privi-Partisan 150 gr. Try for dead on at 200 yards which should be about 1-2" high at 100 yards.

If you reload,,, DO NOT Full length Size the cases or will will only get 1-2 reloads before they separate. Neck size only and preferably with a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die which works the brass least of anything out there.

The chambers in all Enfield's are "generous" and made that way so they would accept any ammo loaded thruout the Empire. If you full length size it reshaped s the case dramatically.

Here's a pic of an un-fired Factory Round and a Reloaded Once Fired Case from my gun.



Once you find a load that shoots decent stick with it.  Chasing loads around in a gun like this is pointless. It is what it is just go shoot something with it and have fun.

Randy


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It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do.



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