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Snider left hand 8 guage

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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8121
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Topic: Snider left hand 8 guage
Posted By: 8bore
Subject: Snider left hand 8 guage
Date Posted: July 05 2016 at 5:36am
Hi there, we are new to this forum and are wanting to find out any information about a Snider with a left hand action in 8 gauge. It has British Ordanance mark along with HMS stamp behind the tang, Sold out of Service mark and anchor stamps on barrel, action, lock and stock. If there is anyone who can help identify it, that would be great. The only anchor mark we can find on the internet pertains to the Civil War America, and that is a different anchor to the one on this gun.
Thanks ahead, I cannot seem to find where to add photos, but they are available.



Replies:
Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 09 2016 at 5:52am
he!!o and welcome  8-bore. 
 
We do need pictures of this!
If you PM me, I will send you my email and you can send pics  for me to post if you can't get it sorted.
Cheers,
 
Richard.


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: July 09 2016 at 6:52am
It SOUNDS like it was used as an Breeches rope t**ser for the Royal Navy.

(2 Ships side by each. To transfer goods & people you would have to tether together. The initial ball of rope being shot over by large bore gun. Ropes then pulled across.)

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: July 09 2016 at 6:53am
Ok..censored..how bout THROWER?

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 09 2016 at 10:58am
or To$$erEvil Smile


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: 8bore
Date Posted: July 09 2016 at 1:16pm
Hi all, we had looked at it being a line throwing gun, we discussed that with the people in England at the National Museum Royal Navy, but they still could not figure out why it would be left handed and also why they would use a massive 8 gauge for it, there is also no rope 'holding ring' on the side of the stock for the purpose of throwing the rope. They also have all the records for their rope throwers.


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 10 2016 at 7:23am
Here is the Snider,  Very clean and a bit of a mystery at present!


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 10 2016 at 7:33am
What we need Lou, are clearer photos of the proofs.
I can't tell for sure if the one mark is the Birmingham provisional proof or the earlier definitive proof.
BO marks are a bit suspect in my view!
 
 
More pictures;
 


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 10 2016 at 7:39am
Last ones;
 


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 10 2016 at 2:55pm
What I don't understand with this one, is the apparent crowned BP which is the Birmingham Provincial Proof under the 1954 Rules of Proof, along with the post 1813 and up to 1904 Birmingham view mark.
 
If you can supply us with close ups of all these marks Lou, it would help a lot.
 
It appears a very well made piece.
The B of O stamp has to be spurious, as the Board of Ordnance ceased to exist in 1855.
 
Can you show us the buttplate tang as well please, Lou?
 
It Is a mystery at present!
 
Richard.


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: July 10 2016 at 3:14pm
Converted military rifle?

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 10 2016 at 5:43pm
Too big and left-handed Paddy.
 
Some Alexander Henry military arms came out with left -hand locks, but don't know of any Sniders.  Commercial proofs as well, but one proof we need to see clearer.
 
 


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: July 10 2016 at 6:47pm
Just sayin..I've seen pics of LEE ENFIELDS with left hand ops.(combat/dessert).
I found that odd..folks said I had looked at a reversal.
The late Bob Camp (BME, R/SgtM Red Devils) told me there was a few lads he knew that were left hand equipped.
I have never seen in person an actual left hand action L/E.
So..That leads me to believe that there may have been an "specialty shop" operation in the L/E world

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: 8bore
Date Posted: July 10 2016 at 10:44pm
With the demise of the Board in 1855, the War Department and today's Ministry of Defence continued to use the mark.

This is what we found out about for the BO marks, so yes the Board ceased in 1855 but the mark continued with the War Department.

We will use chalk to highlight them better in the photos for you.


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 6:44am
8 Bore,
 
Thanks for that, re. the B of O mark!
 
Here are close-ups of the proofs etc.
I think the '6' is a '9', as a 9-bore barrel will be an 8-bore chamber if you know what I mean!
(Like many 12 -bores are actually 13-bore barrels.)
 


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 6:51am
Has the 1813 -1904 Birmingham commercial proofs, but also the "BP" which I believe was used from 1925 to 1981, and why is a bit unclear at present.
No inspection marks on the metalwork, only some on the wood.  Lock seems commercial as well.  Seems a gun made by the trade for whatever purpose.
Very well made, but the wood has me foxed!
How long is the barrel, Lou?


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 8:00am
I have an off-the-wall idea, but before I make a twit of myself a question, is it rifled or smooth-bore?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 8:24am
Line throwing rifle?

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 9:22am
Odder than that if I'm right.
Much odder.
Evil Smile


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 11:48am
They don't come much odder than you.

Paddy - I already suggested that.

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 1:50pm
Not me, the gun!
Oi!
Confused


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: 8bore
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 1:57pm
The anchor marks that are on the wood is also on the barrel, see the earlier photos, can chalk that one too. The barrel is 32.5 inches long. We can not find that anchor mark anywhere on the internet, even Belgium, if it were manufactured in Belgium, it would have to have their proof marks for it, even before being reproofed in England.

It is a smoothbore.



Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 11 2016 at 8:35pm
Lou,
 
I am sure by now that you will be thinking we are bashing this gun.
I am sorry if that is how it comes over!
My questions are that if it saw service in British hands, it would have to have British inspection marks.  These are not Brit. marks on the metal, only British proofs.
The other marks on the wood don't stack up in my mind, and again, if they were kosha, the metal should be stamped accordingly.
I do not know how long the War Dep't used the B of O stamps for, but think it likely for only a few years, and this gun is likely from the 1870's at any rate.
Also, if it were made for use by the Royal Navy, it would be  to a sealed pattern. (not left-handed and a sporting style lock)
Now, in my mind, it Could be an arm pressed into service, and marked as such, but his would be  irregular.
Only thing that comes to mind where non-standard and cut -downs were used , was in the Newfoundland sealing ships.  Quite a lot of cut -down Sniders were used in that industry.
Maybe this one was for gathering Eider -ducks!.....wildfowling guns could come in 10, 8  5 & 4 -bore plus 2 -bore on occasion, as you know.
It isn't a wildfowling gun for a gentleman, but would do the job for market or commercial gunning.
 
Actually, the Belgian rules of proof were not as fixed at British ones, and I do believe that guns were imported and proofed in the UK, so bear just one set of proofs at times.
I am fuzzy on this though, and need to check.
 
Best,
Richard.


Posted By: 8bore
Date Posted: July 12 2016 at 3:09am
Hi All, We appreciate all and any information we can find out about with this gun, The guys at the NMRN in England had no problem with the BO marking, but interesting you say that. We thought it may of been a food gathering gun, either whale/elephant? Whatever it is, its a mystery and an interesting one, its in fantastic condition and we love it,the pictures really don't do it justice, we may never find out what or where it came from. But if anyone ever does find out anything, please let us know, whatever it is. Thanks.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: July 12 2016 at 5:11am
"It is a smoothbore."
OK, I'm wondering if it might be a "kiln gun"
Shocked
They used to use large bore shotguns (all the way up to 2 bore) to clear dried clay mastic from kiln mouths, wild guess but it might also explain the need for a left hand action?



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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: July 12 2016 at 11:36am
I rang a guy who was a professional wildfowler years ago asked him if he knew anything about the Snider. He does and I asked him to join the forum and give us all the lowdown. So watch this space.


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Rottie (PitBulls dad.)


“If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons

Born free taxed to death!!!



Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 12 2016 at 11:52am
Originally posted by 8bore 8bore wrote:

With the demise of the Board in 1855, the War Department and today's Ministry of Defence continued to use the mark.

This is what we found out about for the BO marks, so yes the Board ceased in 1855 but the mark continued with the War Department.

We will use chalk to highlight them better in the photos for you.
 
8 bore,
 
I think that passage you quote has caused a bit of confusion..
 
I found said quote on Wiki, and the subject is "The Broad Arrow."
 
Yes indeed, the broad arrow was used by the War Department but with "WD"  Not with "BO"
So yes, as we know the broad arrow was used on everything just about, but not after 1855 with the Board of Ordnance stamp,  "B O"...........after 1855 it was used along with "W-D".
This gun would have to have been made a good long time after the B of O ceased to exist.
 
Hope this helps.  This mark isn't kosha on the gun in question.
As for wildfowling guns, yes, Sniders were used but not that widely.
I would have expected a longer barrel though.  Maybe close -range African game?  Plenty of smooth -bores were used at this time, with shorter barrels.


Posted By: 8bore
Date Posted: July 20 2016 at 1:28am
Hi everyone, Thanks to you all for your input on this gun, we can see how you may think the broad arrow mark is not genuine, its not what we agree with, but can see how it looks like that, the British were very careful with their markings, it may of been the angle it was struck when hammered onto the stock (maybe?),

With the quote from wiki, we were thinking the gun may of been made around the time the the BO was changing over to the WD, of course we don't know for sure.

We did think it may of been a food gathering gun perhaps either at sea or land, to see this gun in real life is quite different to the photos, the size of it is to be admired :)

On another note, we did pick up an even older gun on the weekend, a beautifully cased Thomas Manton muzzle loading shotgun and have been able to date it between 1817-1825, fantastic bores, its the new addition to the family :)) Just lovely!


Posted By: Pukka Bundook
Date Posted: July 22 2016 at 11:55am
he!!o again  8-bore.
 
I'd love to see some photos of the Thos Manton if available.
 
What bore is it?
 
I'm sorry if the "B-O" bit came over negative. Can only go with what I saw, but grated it is a grand gun!
 
Best,
Richard.



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