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Ishapore 2A1 questions

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Ishapore Enfields
Forum Description: Let's see those Indian Enfields!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=8180
Printed Date: November 29 2020 at 2:22am
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Topic: Ishapore 2A1 questions
Posted By: 1187Shooter
Subject: Ishapore 2A1 questions
Date Posted: August 25 2016 at 7:49pm
I'm thinking about trading into a 1967 Ishapore 2A1... comes with sling,bayonet and a few rounds of ammo.
The bayonet does not match the rifle, he got it off of ebay after he got the rifle, I guess.
Are there any particulars to look out for in these rifles? Years to avoid, signs of abuse, excessive wear etc to watch for?
The markings on the bayonet are pretty worn, and it looks like it was painted green at one time. It doesn't have a scabbard.I don't know much about bayonets, I'm guessing this is a 1907 pattern? Other than that I haven't a clue what the few markings I can read mean...

The rifle looks to be in decent shape, a pretty typical specimen, I think. Numbers match, bore seems decent. Better than my No.4, anyway.

Another question I have is, what's the real scoop about shooting 308 Win out of one of these? I've seen/heard/read opinions on both sides of the fence... some folks say don't do it, never never,not ever, and others say that's all they've ever used in theirs, with no noticeable effects. I understand the fact that the chamber is a bit larger on the 7.62 military side, but what does that really mean to someone who doesn't shoot 100's of rounds in a session,and who is just getting into small scale reloading? (Lee hand press, etc.)
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Replies:
Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: August 28 2016 at 8:02pm
what i know is the 2A1 has the calibrated sights - for military 762x51 , as to shooting 308 you will need to wait for the educated to step in , 

i had this and a 2A as well as an indian 303 and the 410 conversions in a past life time period , all performed well , i had no complaints of any of them , 
the bayonets are a whole nuthr story that would take a good bit of research and time , they purpose made them , the converted others - shortened , scrubbed , remarked , refurbished , if your looking for collectibles thats one thing what you have is correct and adequate , 


Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: August 29 2016 at 1:28am
303 conversions to 308 are ok IF you use lower pressured homeloads. You'll find the factory ammo goes way over pressure for the enfield reciever to cope with by something like 5000psi and eventually there'll be an accident.  Bisley the mecca for enfield shooters over here in the UK (to my knowledge) have banned 308 comercial ammo in converted 303s. A few years ago we had a guy on here who insisted it was safe to use comercial 308 in 303 conversions, he got so stroppy, abusive and adamant he was right I eventually booted him for safeties sake before somebody who didn't know any better ended up in hospital or worse.


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Rottie (PitBulls dad.)


“If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons

Born free taxed to death!!!



Posted By: 1187Shooter
Date Posted: August 29 2016 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Tony Tony wrote:

303 conversions to 308 are ok IF you use lower pressured homeloads. You'll find the factory ammo goes way over pressure for the enfield reciever to cope with by something like 5000psi and eventually there'll be an accident.  Bisley the mecca for enfield shooters over here in the UK (to my knowledge) have banned 308 comercial ammo in converted 303s. A few years ago we had a guy on here who insisted it was safe to use comercial 308 in 303 conversions, he got so stroppy, abusive and adamant he was right I eventually booted him for safeties sake before somebody who didn't know any better ended up in hospital or worse.
 
This is the reason for my questions... as I understood it, the Ishapore rifles were redesigned for the 7.62 NATO cartridge, with better metallurgy etc. in order to withstand the higher pressure. I get that the converted .303 rifles would be less than ideal for running high volumes of .308 or 7.62 through, but then, on the other hand, a converted .308 would have a standard spec .308 chamber....
My question is concerning the difference between shooting standard 7.62x51 NATO ball ammo vs. commercial 308 Winchester hunting loads in the 7.62 military spec chambers. According to the SAAMI charts, from what I can tell, the actual pressures are pretty close if not the same, but the issue as I understand it is the larger chamber dimensions of the 7.62 Vs. standard 308 creates the hazard, not a difference in pressures between the two...
But I am unclear as to what that means to me, exactly. Would it matter so much to a shooter who is not reloading, and therefore only shooting any one particular cartridge a single time, never to be used again, as opposed to a reloader who is recycling brass over and over, eventually to fail due to excess stresses from constant resizing. I know brass doesn't last forever, but I'm guessing this would seriously reduce the life expectancy, depending on wall thickness etc. 
Is there really a physical difference in the case between .308 Win and 7.62 NATO?
Not sure if it really is going to matter this time around anyways, since I'm not sure I'm going to go through with this particular trade... still might pick one up later on though.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: August 30 2016 at 12:42pm
One of my Enfield's is also 7,62 NATO. 
When I bought it I tested some .308 rounds through a Chronograph to compare to 7,62 NATO spec.
Velocities of the .308 are well above the NATO rounds; in the region of 300 feet per second depending on the type. Obviously it's not a good idea in view of the extra pressure being created get those speeds. 

However for reloading, I use components for .308 win,(plenty of choice) but load for NATO speeds of around 2700 ft/sec with 155 grain Sierra's. The components load and shoot well
I also tried some Lithuanian surplus 7,62 recently and it was very good value.



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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: 1187Shooter
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 6:06am
How do your cases hold up after repeated use?
Is your Enfield a true (Ishapore etc.) 7.62 rifle or was it a converted .303?
 




Posted By: paddyofurniture
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 9:02am
My Ishapore is a true Ishapore and the case hold up very well as long as I trim the and only shoot them in that Ishapore.

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Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: August 31 2016 at 11:47am
My 7,62 is an L39a1, so I suspect the chamber is probably tighter than the Ishapore. But if you are using the brass in just one rifle, as Paddy has said. Should not be a problem.
I still have several rounds of the factory .308 ammo that I tested. Having seen the velocity of some of it; I will not be using it in my Lee Enfield. Despite the fact that some of the L39's in the UK have been re-proofed to 20 Tons per square inch, instead of the original 19 tons.


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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: 1187Shooter
Date Posted: September 01 2016 at 10:32am
That's good to know. I have a 30-06 for big game hunting, and I don't hunt at ranges much over 200 yards anyways, so keeping the loads down to 7.62 levels is no problem. I've got some other references concerning case sizing and trimming when reloading .303 British, and I would think that similar procedures would apply here. 
I also don't anticipate picking up more than one rifle in either chambering, so that would remove that particular part of the equation.
Thanks for the help... I'll always take any I can get.





Posted By: locosmith
Date Posted: October 28 2017 at 11:06am
It's not the chamber you have to worry about. The ishy 7.62 was a redesigned piece. the commercial 308 has higher pressures then the 7.62 or the 303. The 308 up to and a little over 50000 cup, the 7.62 around 44000, this is + or - so the true 7.62 will shoot 7.62 x 51 nato no problems. the metal was changed for the 7.62. a 308 is commercial ammo loaded for higher pressure, they tried to make it compete with the 30 06, so don't shoot 308 in it. Then for sure no problems. Load your own and look at a loading manual and look up 308, 7.62 nato and you can see the difference. there are several sites on the net to look at.

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LocoSmith


Posted By: Waldschrat
Date Posted: November 10 2019 at 3:16am
*cough* *cough*

.....a bit dusty in here! 

My question beeing new to this topic. What would happen if you shout 308 over a longer period from your ishapore 2A1? 
As I understand, the rifles get tested with higher pressure before beeing allowed to sell. So I dont think it will explode, right? 

So far i used surpluss ammo wich is stamped with 308 on the cartridge, but the plan is to try remington match ammo. 

Edit:
After another inspection of my rifle I found a stamp 308 on the chamber. So....how wrong can it be??


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: December 18 2019 at 1:39pm
I picked up a 2A a year ago.  Researching comments before shooting, there did not appear to be any issues with western 7.62 or .308 as the 2A was built for the higher pressures.  The one warning that was in several discussions was not to use steel cased ammo as the more generous dimensions of the 2A may lead to splits.


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 18 2019 at 7:22pm
I wonder if there are any recorded action failures from shooting .308 commercial ammunition in either converted No. 4 rifles or 2A rifles.  Think of the Bloke on the Range shooting oiled .300 Win Magnum in a reamed out chamber in a converted No. 4 rifle.  

If you have the ability to handload, I recommend using the minimum powder charge weights in published .308 load data.  Especially important keep the chamber degreased and dry if you choose to push velocities up.

I don’t intend on shooting any commercial .308 in either of my converted No. 4 rifles.  I have shot 7.62 NATO ammunition, the pressures and velocities seem to blow the groups out a bit, better accuracy can be had with reduced pressure loads more in line with the .303.  




Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: December 19 2019 at 10:35am
I have tested a few .308 factory rounds through the chronometer from my L39.
Comparing to the 7.62 NATO surplus spec; you can be running 300 feet per second faster with the .308
One of the Match rounds I tested was close to 3,000 ft/second. I reload using .308 components (155 grain SMK bullets) and look for around 2600 ft/second. It's easier on the shoulder as well as the rifle.

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 19 2019 at 11:33am
Some of the early Brit .308 match conversions had a problem. Never a rifle built as a .308 though just the converted .303's.
IIRC they were all cadet rifles & there were only 2 or 3 of them total, but it started off the scare & for a while they were even banned.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: britrifles
Date Posted: December 19 2019 at 2:53pm
Shamu, do you know if those cadet converted No 4's were firing .308 or 7.62? 
 
I agree with Zed, why take a risk with shooting .308; or 7.62 for that matter; especially if you reload.  These rifles are not getting younger, neither are we.  If you are just shooting for enjoyment or even for vintage matches, there is no downside to light loads.  But what ever you do, don't just guess on the powder charges, and don't go below minimum unless you really know what you are doing, that can cause a powder flashover and very high pressures for some powders (H4895 works well for "light" loads).   
 
My 7.62 load for my No. 4 conversion is a 168 gr HPBT bullet at about 2400 fps (40.0 gr. Varget).  Pressure should be under 45,000 psi.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: December 20 2019 at 7:34am
I believe it was standard 7.62 NATO, but the rumor, once started kept running for ever.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Arminius
Date Posted: December 30 2019 at 12:20pm
I do not want to answer the specific question asked, as I don´t know the answer, and I am reading all about that theme myself.
 
But as a shooter and reloader for long:
 
a larger chamber will slightly reduce pressure.
 
cases from a larger chamber will not last long on reloading. Except, when you are adjusting the dies for that condition.
 
What I am missing in all that discussions, is Case PUSH BACK.
 
Read your P. O. Ackley!
 
Chamber pressure is contained by the steel of the barrel, the chamber section to be specific.
 
What the ACTION has to deal with is back thrust.
 
Ackley shot .30-30 AI ( Ackley Improved ) loads in Win 94´s WITHOUT LOCKING BOLTS!
 
And it worked. I wouldn´t do that EVER in my LIfe!
 
Back to topic: the .303 is an EXTREMELY tapered cartridge. May be because of filling with Cordite, maybe for cartridge feeding and extraction. ( the 7.62 x 39 is extremely tapered because of feeding and extraction reliability ).
 
The .308 is rather straight.
 
I BET ( no, I do not KNOW ), that the .303 for a given power pushes MORE back, than the same load in a .308 case!
 
So, if the action is mechanically sound, I think 7.62 ammo with higher pressure than .303 will do no harm. MAYBE the even higher pressure .308 is over the top. ( one could ream the chamber to the AI form ;-) )
 
I doubt it, given case form.
 
But I do not KNOW it.
 
Just for discussion, have fun, stay safe, Hermann
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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Certified gun nut
Guns. Also classy Women, good beer and fine wines. Did I mention guns? Lots of guns.
A man can never have enough ammunition, books and booze.


Posted By: Chris D
Date Posted: January 07 2020 at 2:46pm
I am not a reloader but in addition to my 2A, I have a civilian M14.  Plenty of info on 7.62x51/.308 on the M14 forum.   The main point is that comparing the pressures given for 7.62 and .308 is confusing because the Military measured 7.62 pressures differently than the civilian .308.  Here is an excerpt from a long discussion string
"The psi figures "quoted" are apples and oranges. The 62,000 psi is the current figure for SAAMI based on piezo transducers pressures. The 50,000 psi quoted for the 7.62 NATO is based on the C.U.P. (Copper Unit Pressure) measuring systems. Those are total different and a comparison is totally meaningless.

The actual psi maximum average working pressures (MAPs or PMAPs) for both the 7.62 NATO and the .308W are pretty close to the same; 50,000 C.U.P. or 62,000 psi. The military is now also using a case mouth transducer to measure the psi of 7.62 NATO and 5.56 NATO BTW. I have been measuring the pressure of various lots of US and foreign 7.62 NATO and commercial .308W ammunition in 3 test rifles using an Oehler M43 for several years now. I can show you 7.62 NATO ammunition that is higher that .308W ammunition and visa versa all tested in the same test rifle on the same day under the same conditions. Point is both cartridges are close to the same and it just depends on the specific type and lot of ammunition as to which will have a higher psi. Also don't assume that because the MAP is listed at 62,000 psi that all such ammunition is loaded to that....it isn't. I've yet to find a commercial .308W or a 7.62 NATO MAP that hits that. A couple of each have hit 60,000 psi but most quality .308W/7.62 NATO that meets spec is in the 56 -58,000 psi range. The loading criteria is based on a velocity specification (+/- a lot more fps than you would believe) that stays within SAAMI psi specs (more than just the MAP BTW) and gives adequate "accuracy".

The measured "difference" between the two cartridges is most often in the velocity. The .308W many times will have a higher velocity for a given bullet weight (say 150 vs 147) than the 7.62 NATO. Many assume the higher velocity means a higher psi. That is not the case most often. It means a slower powder was used in the .308W as the time/pressure curves demonstrate. The cartridge case external specifications are the same also. Ever try to buy a set of "7.62 NATO" loading dies? No, probably because they are all .308W dies because the two cartridges are the same externally. Yes milsurp chambers are more generous (need to be to ensure reliable functioning) than commercial .308W but comparing chambers and concluding the cartridges are there for different is an erroneous conclusion.

With bullets of 150 - 165 gr in the .308W there isn't enough of a slower time pressure to harm the M1A/M14. There is just an increase of 75 -100 fps or so velocity. The gas port psi is about the same with those .308W loads as with M118SB or M118LR ammunition.

Newer .308W ammunition of "super performance" or "extended range" have specially blended and much slower powders and should not be used in gas guns. This because of a much slower time/pressure curve that puts too much psi at the gas port. It is not because of increased MAPs in the .308W. Those types of ammunition have MAPs that are like any other .308W commercial ammunition that are within SAAMI specs.

Bottom line is; before going to different sites and cross referencing the "data" one should be aware of how the "data" was obtained. Most often, in the case of .308W vs 7.62 NATO, the "data" was obtained by totally different methods and is meaningless in comparison."
 
the full link is at https://m14forum.com/ammunition/100445-7-62-x-51-cartridge-vs-308-winchester-differences.html" rel="nofollow - https://m14forum.com/ammunition/100445-7-62-x-51-cartridge-vs-308-winchester-differences.html



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