Weird question-.303" black powder.
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Topic: Weird question-.303" black powder.
Posted By: TomcatPC
Subject: Weird question-.303" black powder.
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 1:36pm
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This is something I have wondered about so I just had to ask. Has anyone ever tried or heard of toading .303" with black powder? Not that I have a desire to fire black powder in any of my Lee-Enfield Rifles, just courious if anyone has tried a black powder load for the Lee-Metford Rifle? I might be optomisitc and plan ahead to the year 2525 when I get a Lee-Metford...LOL. Everyone can stop rolling their eyes and quit laughing now...LOL.
Mark ------------- The .303" Cartridge, Helping Englishmen express their emotions since 1888. |
Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 25 2007 at 2:34pm
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I know the Mk1 Round for the Lee Mteford used 70gns of black powder behind a 215gn bullet but that's about as far as I've ever deweled on the subject Dave |
Posted By: TomcatPC
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 11:57am
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Thank you Dave, not only for responding, but for not laughing me out of here...LOL. I can't imagine many people asking about re-loading .303" in black powder. Maybe somewhere out there there is a multi-millionaire who has several Lee-Metfords in his vast collection that pays someone to load rounds for him, but for the time being, that is not me...LOL.
I don't recall where I heard this from, but I heard that the black powder charge in the .303" was compressed real tightly in the casing. I imagine that might be difficult to replicate. Mark ------------- The .303" Cartridge, Helping Englishmen express their emotions since 1888. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 27 2007 at 12:16pm
Look I would never laugh at a reasonable request ! Martini Henrys converted to .303 would shoot well with Black Powder . They say the charge of 70gns was compressed into the case . I would assume that you'd need the longest drop tube you could find & then apply the powder slowly ,followed by seating the bullet gently ,as Black powder unlike Smokeless will explode under impact or force ! I've often wondered if they had many accidents when they loaded the original ammo in the factories ! I know that Alfred Noble's factory was built of wood & even the carts to carry the chemicals & the finished product were made of wood to avoid sparks ! His own Brother was Blown up working in the Nitro Glycirene factory Dave |
Tomcatrc wrote:Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 8:31am
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I've NEVER had a cae of black powder exploding on impact(Not to say it wont happen)Remember this,Mark..black powder burns SLOWER than smokeless, & is courser(I use FFF in my Enfield - the 1812 guys use FF in they're Brown Bess).It is also VERY DIRTY.Martini-Henry was black powder & made the conversion -relativly easy I'm told-to .303.When we use black powder in handguns, Navy & Army Colt - we put black powder in each chamber, then compress it - then insert the ball, & lube it.
Why anyone would want to go thru the rigors -I have NO idea.It alot of fun with a weapon DESIGNED for Black powder..a real pain in the ass, otherwise (& thats all I have to say about that) Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Ed Hill
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 9:49am
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Remember that is very important not have any gap in the bp cartridge. The bullet should be sitting right on the powder, or right on a wad sitting on the powder. Air gaps can cause excessive pressure. Remember the stuff is corrosive, and you'll have to clean carefully after firing. ED |
Posted By: TomcatPC
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 11:16am
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Thank you all for the responces. This was just one of those things I had always wondered about, I don't plan on reloading any rounds with black powder anytime soon. Just wanted to know if anyone here has ever done it before. It would be nice to have a Lee-Metford to find black powder rounds for though, but I'm not holding my breath...LOL. I have never seen a Lee-Metford for sale in "real life", but I can't imagine getting one for under at least $1500 (US).
Mark ------------- The .303" Cartridge, Helping Englishmen express their emotions since 1888. |
Posted By: Ed Hill
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 12:44pm
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I load BP in my 45-70 on occasion. The powder is difficult to find here in the PRK, and $19 a can if I'm lucky. The straight wall case is easy to load, and the gun is an H&R buffalo Classic break open so the cleaning is very straight forward. No bolt or nooks and crannies to clean. It is fun to make big clouds of smoke and have the other shooters stare in awe and admiration. ( I can't figure out why they shake their fists and swear loudly while staring at me with awe and admiration??) Ed |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 5:41pm
I Know where you comming from there Ed ! My Brother in law was a big Bp shooter & he & his Mates were the Brunt of all of my Jokes ! I was invited to join them one day for a shot .....So I turned up wearing a Old WW2 Gas mask that I found in a Army surplus store ! Yeah it was like serving a Pork roast at a Jewish wedding ! There was that deathly silence ! Revenge was achived some months latter when my B/L suggested he'd found a "Gun" that I would'nt be game to fire! Of course this was a Red rag to a Bull ! It turned out to be a 4 Bore Punt gun  ! Yes I went through with it ! They stood on a chair to load the bloody thing ! I ended up with a bruise on my shoulder that went from Black in the centre to a light shade of yellow !!!!!! Dave |
Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: February 28 2007 at 7:28pm
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Cowboy action shooters shoot black powder in even modern guns for some of their stages. Its a lot of fun but you have to clean thoroughly. Heads still turn when I shoot my Ruger Old Army at the range and quite a few folks want to try a shot.
Raider
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Posted By: Ed Hill
Date Posted: March 01 2007 at 10:04am
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I think we also called the Punt guns "market guns" over here as they were used by market hunters shooting the entire flock of ducks! Ed |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: March 01 2007 at 10:13am
Yes they go by several differant Names . They were origanaly used in a long narrow boat ,where the shooter lay down & paddled within range of duck sitting on the water & then let loose ! apparently bags of several hundred were'nt uncommon ! But a lot of these wild Fowlers came to sticky endings ! I remember reading of one such hunter whose Flint lock Punt gun let go ! It blew the Poor Devils hand off ,then he capsized & drowned ! Dave |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: March 02 2007 at 1:11am
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Punt Guns were used quite a bit over here. Providing table game for the Upper Crust . 1 I saw looked like and artillery piece with a cord to the trigger release. They recon the recoil sent the punt backwards at a fair rate. Personally I'd rather use a claymore and a decoy duck sod paddling around in a boat with a cannon on the sharp end. ------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 25 2008 at 1:39pm
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71.5 grains of RFG2 Black powder. The original loading of the 303 using a 215gn projectile Dave |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: February 25 2008 at 5:30pm
YOU CAN TAKE THE GAS MASK OFF NOW DAVE!  LETS SEE YOUR FACE!!!------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 25 2008 at 6:02pm
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YOU CAN TAKE THE GAS MASK OFF NOW DAVE! LETS SEE YOUR FACE!!! Not until the Stature of limitations runs out !!!!!!  Dave |
Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: February 25 2008 at 6:07pm
How did you get the mask to seal around all that hair??????? 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 25 2008 at 6:22pm
A determined Man can achieve wonders with a Roll of Duct Tape  |
Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: February 25 2008 at 7:24pm
Guess you know how them wimmin feel when they wax their legs then eh dave? 
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Posted By: Smokey
Date Posted: February 26 2008 at 8:30am
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Dave,
"71.5 grains of RFG2 Black powder."
I never heard of that type. Is it "Real Fine Grain 2"
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 26 2008 at 12:55pm
Can't say that I know for sure ! apparently though they use to roll it (the charge) into a cylinder shape that was tappered at each end with a hole through the middle. This would have given a greater area of mass there by making it a Fast burning charge . Dave |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 26 2008 at 9:54pm
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Is that the kind of charge they ORIGINALLY used in the Snider "Rolling Block"?
Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: February 27 2008 at 10:16am
It would seem .That it was the 'Standard' Powder Type right through from the Sniders & 577-450s to the .303 . I Damned if I can find a comparison to ,todays types of Black powder though so far as burning rates ! Can you though some light on the Subject Hoadie ??? Dave |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 27 2008 at 10:22am
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No clue Dave. I use FFF @ 80 grains (average) in my Enfield .577. I know the guys using Brown Bess use FF & I have a friend that has an original Potsdam(1795-I beleive) Belgan..he's 69 Cal. & he uses FF.
When I took my Blk pwdr artillery training, we used F.But this was/is all modern stuff.I know the old stuff burnt slower..& COOLER Hoadie Hmm-maybe its sumthin I shud research  ...naw-it'd keep me up!  ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Smokey
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 7:31am
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"I use FFF @ 80 grains (average) in my Enfield .577"
What weight bullet do you use?
I load my .58 Colt with 65gr FFG under a 500gr Minie Bullet. That actually is a pretty potent load. Shoots pretty well too.
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Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 11:32am
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According to the info that I have it was a 71.5 grn compressed black powder pellet. Not sure what they mean by "pellet". Ill have to see how much black powder a case will hold, that is assuming that they used one of the grades that we use now.
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Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 12:59pm
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Well -I can tell you that from my black powder artillery school(a lifetime ago) there was mention of "pellet". Now-w/reference to my artillery book,it says:Aside from gradual improvement in the formula,no grt change in pwdr making came till 1860, when Gen.Thom.J Rodman(hoadie note-the Rodman gun)of the U.S.ordanace dept. began 2 tailor powder to the calibre of the gun.Action of ordinary cannon pwdr was too sudden.Whole charge was consumed before the projectile had fairly started on itsway-& strain on the gun was terrific.Rodman compressed pwdr into disks that fit the bore of the gun.Disks were an inch or 2 thick,& pierced w/holes.this arrangement a minimum of powder surface was exposed @ beginning of combustion,but as fire ate holeslarger,burning area actually increased-producing greater volume of gas as the projectile moved forward.Rodman thus laid the foundationfor the "progressive burning"pellets of modern powders.
Hmmm... Help any? 
Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 2:25pm
| Like model rocket engines then with the hole up the middle |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: March 08 2008 at 5:07pm
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Any idea what they used to bind the powder to make the disks? Gelatine or a chemical binder to hold them in shape? ------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: Smokey
Date Posted: March 08 2008 at 8:20pm
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I believe black powder can be formed into various shapes while damp. If I remember correctly, the ingredients were mixed with ammonia and dried into sheets. The sheets would then be broken up into granules when almost completely dry.
Trying to press dry powder into some other form could have unexpected pyrotechnic effects!
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Posted By: RamblerReb
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 4:41am
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I used to go to a range out in the PRK to shoot my replica Spiller & Burr and Griswold & Gunnison .36s. They won't hit crap, but a guy used to come out with a Ruger Old Army and "ring the bell" (hit a school bus brake drum down at the end of the rifle range) 385 yards away with startling regularity.
------------- Authority is the aqua regia of golden character. |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 1:59pm
getting back to punt guns...a little while ago I was talkin bout them & No-one believed me bout 4 guage.Here they used to mount them on a punt to hit GEESE.firing straight up wud damn near put her under!!(but U got the geese!! 
Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 2:00pm
Just gimme aliitle more time-or remind me-they talk about that in my artillery handbook Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 7:39pm
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Blimey Hoadie lad it'd be like using a borfors gun in a canoe! What goes up must come down too! I can just imagine them ducking as the lead, nails and kitchen sink dropped back on them. ------------- Rottie (PitBulls dad.) “If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons Born free taxed to death!!! |
Posted By: Lithgow
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 8:49pm
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Hoadie is correct. The 4 Gauge punt gun was common I believe.
My dad knew an old bloke who was a poacher. He spoke of 4G guns and I think the muzzle loaders were even bigger.
They did not aim the gun they aimed the punt and fired the gun. Killed whole flocks of birds in one shot.
I think they then sunk the punt,grabbed the dead birds and cleared off.
They sold the birds at a market the next day.
Then when things had settled they went back and salvaged the punt.
I am not sure of the exact details but it is along those lines.
Flare pistols were also 4G. I have a 4G flare cartridge.
I seem to recall the black powder was tumbled in a wooden keg. I am sure I have this written somewhere, Ill try to dig it out.
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Posted By: pathdoc
Date Posted: October 08 2009 at 10:01pm
| IIRC not only did they press the BP into a very tight pellet to get the whole charge in, they had to put it into the straight-walled, primed case and form the case around the charge then seat the bullet. Textbook of Small Arms 1929 implies the same thing happened for the cordite charge in later marks of ammo. |
Posted By: Smokey
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 9:07pm
| It being that I think "out of the box" I've tried black powder in bottlenecked cases with jacketed bullets. It shoots OK. Velocity is fairly consistent and ignition is good even at subzero temperatures. The jacketed bullets seem to scrape out the worst of the fouling so the bore does not "fill up" in the manner we see with muzzle-loaders. You will NOT get the kind of velocity that smokeless gives. I read somewhere that some of the Finnish troops made their own ammo, and use black powder during the "Winter War". It worked better in the extreme cold. |
Posted By: pathdoc
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 9:17pm
| When you say black, do you mean true black powder, pyrodex or both (not at once obviously)? |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 10 2009 at 9:48pm
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I have a Kropatschek rifle(in various states of disassembly) that I am trying to restore.As I understand it,they were made by Steyr for the Portugese.
This rifle has a sharply bottle-necked cartridge(8mm) & is powered by Fg black powder. The maximum range for these thing is 2,200 meters Original loads were 70 grains of Fg & pushed a 247 grain/.326 dia jacketed bullet @1,706 fps. I know alot of them-somehow -ended up being used by the French in the 1st war. So-I guess you could say,"Black powder lives!" Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: Smokey
Date Posted: October 11 2009 at 5:35am
| pathdoc Yes, I was talking about "true" black powder. You also need to de-prime and rinse the empty cartridges with hot water or they will corrode pretty nicely. Cleaning the rifle is no different than with regular corrosive ammo. Run plenty of hot (boiling) water down the barrel to dissolve out the fouling and corrosive salts. Dry it, oil it and you're done. If nothing else is available, black powder and jacketed or cast bullets work well enough out to a couple hundred yards. |
Posted By: mauser98nut
Date Posted: October 11 2009 at 6:43am
| Was actually considering loading Bp for the Martini -Enfield in my other post.Doesn't strike me as odd just something for the most part forgotten over time. |
Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: October 11 2009 at 12:18pm
When I had my Martini..I searched hi & low for someone producing loads for them...to no avail.Shortly after my buddy bought(stole?) it from me-I find out that there was 2 producers for it!!  Anyway-one was in Texas(I think)cant remember the other's locale tho.
But someone is makin .577/450(bloody expensive-too.If I recal it was like-$8.00 per round!)
Hoadie ------------- Loose wimmen tightened here |
Posted By: RamblerReb
Date Posted: October 11 2009 at 12:59pm
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The cheapest I found is $113 for 20, or $5.65 per round. Hey, Rhino, when you get that Martini fixed, it's on the Buffalo Arms site. Let me know if you buy some and I'll pay for however many rounds I shoot out the window! ZULUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!
------------- Authority is the aqua regia of golden character. |
Posted By: LE Owner
Date Posted: December 04 2009 at 5:01am
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If the compressed cylinder or pellet of BP was damaged in the loading process or in transport the charge would burn much too quickly and generate excessive pressures.
The BP loading was at best a stop gap till a useful reliable Smokeless propellant was developed.
I have seen photos of a WW2 ammunion factory showing women priming cartridges which were already loaded. They used a priming booth with blast resistent glass shield.
A cartridge igniting in the open would be much like to old cherry bomb firework. The main danger would be from being struck by the casing.
Not sure if the bullet had been seated or just the charge inserted and necking operations done.
One of the girls might loose a finger now and then, but they took care to avoid setting off anything else.
I suspect this was a bottle neck in production and resulted in britian ordering more conventionally assembled ammo from the US and Canada during wartime.
The long shelf life of Cordite allowed the British to stockpile huge amounts of ammo between wars, but attempts to change the formula to reduce the need for acetone as a solvent had also resulted in huge batches of Cordite that went bad in less than ten years, leaving the British short on ammo.
A description of a fire at an ammo storage facility stated that casings of cooked off .330 SAA shot into the sky like small skyrockets. The Cordite burning like a small rocket motor rather than detonating.
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