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New Member with MLE to ID

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URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9542
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 3:21am
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Topic: New Member with MLE to ID
Posted By: Thudclang
Subject: New Member with MLE to ID
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:36am
Thank-you for adding me to your membership. I need help identifyi this rifle. 
Like so many before me I have aquired an old Enfield needing identification and would love to figure this old warrior out. I have no experience and have succeeded in only confusing myself with all the varying opinions online. Its an đź‘‘ VR/1P sporterized with a 24.5” barrel and an overall length of 44.5”. Lots of stamps and numbers on it so I’m sure will make it easy for the trained eye to id. I’m not sure how to post all my photos. Hopefully this post won’t get me punted. 



Replies:
Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 2:50pm
Some kind of sported "Long Lee" (No1 mk1 in its various incarnations.)
It seems to still have the sheet metal bolt cover? (very nice)
But no magazine? (spendy)Confused


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Honkytonk
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 2:59pm
Word of warning!! Don't call it a gun!!! Hoadie will have your guts for garters!!


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 4:05pm
Thudclang: First of all - welcome to the forum. Don't worry about being "punted"...UNLESS YOU CALL IT A GUN!! It's a RIFLE but we can't tell you much without more information...like good quality photos.

Englishman - on this forum - seems to be our resident Guru on the old / obscure Enfields. Although he can usually tell you alot from a quick glance, he too will
request some photos. (I don't wear garters! )

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 4:12pm
Thank-you for that heads up hoagie. I didn’t think you were the type to wear garters. I’ve got a pile of photos to post but I’m not sure where. Should I just add them all to my first posting?


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 4:17pm
nice looking sporter , perhaps terry lee will add a little here 

WELCOME 


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 4:25pm
Thudclang: I cant tell you how to post the pics (I'm somwhat of a "technosaur"..But Shamu & A Square can (methinks)...Oh, & heads-up, its a "Magazine" - not a clip, & its a "Charger" - not a stripper...& its "HOADIE" - not Hoagie

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 4:59pm
My apologies Hoadie, my iphone made the auto correction and I didnt see it. My next question was actually giong to be where do I find a magazine and chargers? Trying a different angle on uploading...stand by.


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 7:19pm
sometimes those spell correction things can mess a guy up - i have to over-ride at work often as construction terms often are not normal , but here at home i just have spell check - it can be very helpful unless what you typed is correct and what you meant looks wrong , 

posting photos from your computer - 
i am not as good at giving instructions as shamu but i followed his and got to this ;

first you need to select "post reply" in lower left corner of the page [assuming it appears the same in your program as mine] do not use the quick reply box at the bottom - this goes into advanced or enhanced mode 

second you click on the tree icon on top of the message box , a pop up appears that has a "choose file" button , this gives you access to your photo files stored on your computer , 

third use your top bar to select where it comes from if you have multiple files as i do , click on the file you want then click on the photo you want - it highlights , then click on the "open" button , 

fourth that takes you back to the pop up , click upload - it will show up in the preview box after a moment or two , if its what you want , click on the OK button and it posts to the thread 

this feature is so nice - you do not need a photo host and do not risk loosing your photos , your photos do not suddenly go away or get blocked , 
i have taken to linking this sites threads to other sites ---thinking we can get new members---as a way to post photos there in a couple cases , 

hope that helped , im as much a dinosaur on computers as hoadie is , but i have stumbled through this so anyone can with practice , 




Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 8:54pm
Here’s a shot of the hole and inclusion where the front Volley Sight was. This is what made me think it was a Metford until I saw the Enfield stamps. (Ive been trying to upload photos all afternoon and this one finally worked. I’ve used uploaders like this in other forums years ago and am surprised this outdated format still exists. Still, not here to criticize, I just want to post these photos) 


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 8:57pm
Another mystery: What is this Andrews stamp? EFD is the Birmingham factory? 


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 8:59pm
Help from the Englishman please! This photo is interesting to me. The farthest left is the crown B/01 or 81. Then there are the Crown VR crossed keys or flags? 2P stamp. This is the 4th Victoria Rex stamp. BNP (British Nitro Proof) testing numbers, meaning it was decommissioned for Army Surplus  sporterizing? 


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:01pm
N for Navy perhaps? 


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:04pm
The lower stamp is another crown B (Birmingham?) 01?
It’s difficult to see but the top stamp is the Victoria Regina/1P


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:06pm
(Broadhead) Arrow above B/84E


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:08pm
Rear volley sight holes


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:11pm
Unit numbers?


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:25pm


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:26pm
Is this front sight an original MLE or was it upgraded to an SMLE before it was sporterized? The overall length is 44.5” but the barrel length is 24.5 with Enfield 5 groove rifling. Same as an SMLE. This is what confuses me. Help please!


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:28pm
Crown /upside down keys or flags?


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:35pm
Two sets of numbers: one 5 digit number on the receiver and one 4 digit number  ahead of it. 


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:40pm
Crown/E
Bottom side stamps (behind rear ladder sight) wood cover


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:44pm

R22?


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 09 2019 at 9:49pm


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 10 2019 at 2:53am


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 10 2019 at 2:55am


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 10 2019 at 3:05am
Monarch/Victoria Regina 1P


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: February 10 2019 at 6:39am
The "ANDREWS" stamp is interesting. A commercial custom long lee of some kind?


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: February 10 2019 at 10:55am

Pisss me off. I just typed a bunch of stuff and I somehow pressed the wrong button and it is gone. Gahhhh! I retype.


Ok. Here we go…

 

Reading the rifle.

First blush at a distance is that she is a long Lee that has been sportered in the shed by a previous civilian owner. Yours has caught my interest as I have its twin on my rack (1896 Enfield made MLM Mk.II*)




A couple of pics of its twin.


Your non serial matching bolt is a replacement and has the safety catch on the cocking piece, which would have been from either a MLM (Magazine Lee metford) Mk.II* or from a MLE (Magazine Lee Enfield) Mk.I or Mk.I*.

A quick look at the flat on the nocks form shows a capital E which denotes Enfield form rifling in the barrel. Thus she is a Lee Enfield.

 

The next place that I would look is on the right hand butt socket band for the year and maker. I dont see that pic. All military rifles had the Monarch, date, Model and Mark information. I do see military proofs on the barrel so I do know that it was at some time a service rifle.

 

The left butt socket shows a N marking, which tells me that this is an ex-Naval service rifle. The left hand side of the barrel reinforce shows naval workshop markings. P/N/1 which would be Naval Workshop number One in Portsmouth. There appears to be an over strike of a 3 which would be for Naval Workshop number Three at Chatham.


A bit of a back grounder is that your rifle was likely a first line weapon with the British Regular Army, and then when the new Sht.LE rifle was issued to land troops starting in 1903, the long Lees that were replaced were returned to stores and some were passed along to the Royal Navy. Before re-issue, the rifles went through a full refurbishment. Some of them were actually Mk.II Lee Metfords which were upgraded to Lee Enfield specs with a replacement Enfield barrel. This one got its turn through the Naval workshop in October 1905. Again in May 1911 (probably for resighting to the new Mk.VII cartridge). Then it went back to the workshop one more time for repair or update in December 1914.

 

Underneath that is a Victorian 1st proof mark and a Sparkbrook factory inspector’s view mark. Crown/B/31. The block capital B is the Sparkbrook factory, 31 is the inspector’s unique number.

 

The serial numbers are oriented vertical. This is a feature unique to Sparkbrook due to the roll die machine that they used to mark the numbers on barrel and receiver. The same die was used for both numbers, so  the missing number is an interesting mistake? Either that or perhaps the barrel has been replaced and renumbered. Rear sight is numbered to the barrel so is likely original.

 

There are other parts with the Sparkbrook B view markings. Eg bolt dust cover (Crown/B/22).

 

The top of the receiver ring is marked Andrews.

T. Andrews, Gun and Rifle Manufacturer 25 New Road, Woolwich. London.

The rifle was probably purchased surplus by Andrews who regulated it for competition use. I have seen more than one ex naval long Lee with the Andrews marking. The front sight ramp might have been modified by Andrews to accept the insert. But I doubt that Andrews shortened the barrel, (now i'm not so sure).

Usually, Andrews did some careful bedding to full length rifles, but this fore end has been cut back to just ahead of the barrel band. This one aint an Andrews modification for sure. (now i'm not so sure). No idea if this is the original fore end or a replacement. The handguard has an Enfield view mark (E), so has been switched out. As previously mentioned, the bolt is a replacement too. EFD marked on the bolt head is an RSAF Enfield marking used 1897 onwards.

 

The trigger guard has an RSAF Enfield inspector view mark along with a broad arrow Brit acceptance mark, which is from a later date than usually seen on the long Lee trig guard. I would guess that it isn’t a long Lee trigger guard, but one from a Sht.LE. Does it have a lightening slot at the very top rear on the outside of the finger loop?

So what you have is a long Lee Enfield Naval service rifle. It was sold surplus to Andrews of London. What I find interesting is that I dont see any commercial proof markings as this time, so dont know if this was sold through the British Gun Trade or exported overseas directly through a dealer.

It has since been modified into sporter form by a previous owner. I was initially thinking Bubba did it, but now am not sure. 

The twins have exactly the same modifications to the fore arm, barrel and sight ramp. even has the same style bead sight insert. Did Andrews buy a batch of these surplus rifles and made some econo hunting rifles, as did several other gun makers at one time (Parker Hale, Churchill)?


Just to help confuse with the model nomenclature...

There is a rifle designated Magazine Lee Enfield Mk.I (MLE Mk.I), and there is a Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mk.I (SMLE Mk.I), but there is no such an official designation as a No.1 Mk.I. 

In 1925 rifle designations were simplified. eg no.1 rifle, No.2 rifle, No.3 etc.

The Sht.LE Mk.III was the current model of SMLE and was redesignated as the No.1 Mk.III. 

However, all the earlier obscolete models did not get the new designation. 


So a No.1 rifle could be a SMLE Mk.III, or IV, or V or VI, 

but never the earlier Mk.I or Mk.II Cond.

Clear as mud, aint it?



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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: hoadie
Date Posted: February 10 2019 at 11:09am
Yeah!! Wot he said!! That bout sums it up!

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Loose wimmen tightened here


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 11 2019 at 5:09am
Just a quick reply, as I’ve been on call at work and barely had time to reply: A look at the “blank” right side. Not sure what that means. Thank-you for that reading! Highly entertaining and much appreciated! Truley amazing historical journey. More replies coming. 


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: February 11 2019 at 8:09am

I downloaded your pics and enlarged them to see details. I am fairly certain that both yours and mine were modified by the same gunsmith. Both have the barrel cut to the same approximate length. I cant actually measure mine as the rifle was stripped and put into the bins for parts. The receiver was used back and is going through a build back to mil spec with a replacement full length barrel. The take off barrel from my Andrews one has been turned down for use on a cavalry carbine.
The thing that caught my attention was the front sight ramp modification and the fitting of exactly the same style of bead sight insert.
Both have the woodwork cut back and the end finished at the same angle of dangle.

Both have the Andrews stamp in the same place.

Your right butt socket band has been scrubbed of markings, but mine has not. Quite common for this to be done, either by whoever converted the rifle or by a previous owner. I can understand why an owner of a sporting rifle would want the government marking removed to spiff things up. Too bad for us a hundred years later trying to figure out the rifle. Difficult to figure out as to what model and mark of rifle it is as both Lee Metford and Lee Enfields used exactly the same forging for the receiver. The only difference is the markings. I'll dig in my notes and review the Sparkbrook serial number.
My money is on this being a Lee Enfield Mk.I due to the serial number matching barrel.

As we all know, sportered military rifles were very popular and affordable, and still are. If I was a subsistence hunter and needed to put meat on the table to feed the family, a sportered Lee Enfield would be just the ticket! There were several businesses and even local gun smiths converting the long barrelled army rifles to lighter handier sporting arms.
As I understand, the naval marked long Lees were sold off when the ships on which they were stored were decommissioned. This would be after the first world war in the 20's. There was a great purge of obscolete military arms from British stores and sold off surplus in 1925. Time frame fits. Literally tons of surplus rifles available for civilian purchase. Naval marked long Lees are common to see.
The 30s brought the great depression and for many money was tight. I can see a market for a decent sporter with a brand name that was ready to use.
This is all guess work on my part of course, but I base things on my observations and have confirmed many little details to myself over the years. That is one reason why I will never turn down the opportunity to examine any old Lee, Mil spec, commercial sporter or Bubba special.

What puzzles me now is that neither rifle appears to have British commercial proof marks. This tells me that neither one of them was sold on the UK home market through the British Gun Trade. This suggests that they were built for export. This also jives as the market for a hunting rifle in England is quite limited. Those that had the means to go hunting would likely have more than a few shillings to spare and would likely buy a rifle such as a Lee Speed and not a cut down army rifle. This rifle would likely be pooh-poohed by the toffs going on safari.

So now the scenario in my mind that seems to fit is that our rifles were converted to sporter by Andrews in London for sale overseas, the big market being north America. No commercial proofs required. Probably not coincidence that both rifles have been found in Canada.

Is it valuable? No. Collector interest as a long Lee is long gone. Any value is now as a working sporter.
Sometimes they can shoot very well. They make a great bush gun, are robust, reliable and get the job done for any game in found north America. 

I thank you for sharing your rifle with us. I have certainly added to my notes. But just two rifles is too  small a sample to be conclusive. If I encounter another sportered Lee with the Andrews mark,  you betcha I will be all over it.


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: February 11 2019 at 8:58am
A couple of notes on the proof markings.

When the barrel was made, it went through a production line of many stages. Each stage was done on dedicated machinery and tooling doing just the one operation to the barrel. At each stage, dedicated gauges were used to check it. After inspection, and if the barrel passed, the underside of the barrel (below the wood line) was marked. Here you will find a dozen process markings or more.

The barrel was then sent off to the factory proof house for a first proofing. It was tested with a proof load, or 'blue pill' as it was called, in effect a 25% overloaded cartridge. After firing, the barrel was inspected and carefully measured to see if anything had moved, bulged, cracked etc. If it passed, it was marked with the 1P stamp along with a factory inspector's view mark. Good barrel.

The manufacturing process continued and the barrel was mounted onto its receiver, a bolt was fitted. The barrelled action then went off to the proof house again for a second proof. This time an oiled proof round was used to test. 

The oil prevented the brass casing from gripping the walls of the chamber, which greatly increased the amount of thrust that was taken by the bolt. Amongst other things, this thrust set the locking lugs of the bolt into their pockets. 
Inspection was carried out and if it passed, both barrel and receiver were marked with the 2P marking along with another inspector view marking.

The rifle at this stage got its serial numbers applied to the receiver, barrel, bolt and rear sight leaf. The rifle was assembled into its wood and off it went for accuracy testing against a target. If it passed it was ready to go.

Mil spec proofing is to a chamber pressure 18-1/2 tons per square inch. It never changed over the life of the Lee Metford/Enfield series. Only when later some models were chambered in 7.62 NATO, their  proof load spec was increased to 19-1/2 tons per square inch. 
So even the first Lee Metford in 1888 was proofed to the same specs as a WWII and later rifle firing cordite or nitrocellulose loaded rounds. The Lee was intended to shoot smokeless from day one.

If you see NITRO PROOF or NITRO PROVED on a Lee Enfield, that is a commercial marking, not military.





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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Zed
Date Posted: February 11 2019 at 12:08pm
Very interesting analysis. I think we all get pleasure from reading and learning from your experience englishman.
Thank you!

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It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: February 11 2019 at 6:28pm
that was a great summing up , it does tell us a lot of that rifle and its life , these are sometimes very interesting which is why i never stand on the traditionals and seek to learn from the nontraditionals as well , thank you simon for your superb input , 

FYI - when posting photos it is not necessary to make each a separate post , when you get your first in place , enter down and repeat the tree actions , you end up with multiple photos in a single post , 


Posted By: Thudclang
Date Posted: February 13 2019 at 4:52am
That’s was a pleasure. Thank-you again for that thorough analysis. When I get time to disassemble the old girl I’ll post more photos of her underbelly. In the meantime I look forward to reading everyone else’s discussions. Next step is to hunt down a magazine and some chargers and take it out to the back 100, for a mad minute...after it warms up 30 some degrees. It’s a bone chilling -30 C right now. Cheers! 



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