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New member/owner with questions

Printed From: Enfield-Rifles.com
Category: Enfields
Forum Name: Enfield Rifles
Forum Description: Anything that has to do with the great Enfield rifles!
URL: http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9979
Printed Date: July 14 2020 at 6:04pm
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Topic: New member/owner with questions
Posted By: pkocke
Subject: New member/owner with questions
Date Posted: September 02 2019 at 7:37pm
he!!o everyone. I've inherited a few guns recently, one of which is this British 303 that I'm looking to learn more about. Can anyone here take a look and give me their thoughts on what they see? Model? Date of manufacture? Any and all help is appreciated. Thank you!
Paul



Replies:
Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: September 05 2019 at 7:38am
It is a Lee Enfield, model : "Rifle No4 Mk1"

Manufactured (probably) 1943 / 44

Manufactured in the UK by BSA

Does the serial number on the rear of the bolt handle match that on the butt-socket ?


Posted By: pkocke
Date Posted: September 05 2019 at 5:56pm
Thank you for the response. I've looked all over and I don't see markings on the bolt handle. Do you have any websites you can refer me to for gun history?


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 05 2019 at 9:55pm
i thought i had posted the same response last evening - nice to know someone saw it the same as i did , there are many questions to be answered but based on what we can see here that is all we might offer i think , 

it has a war expedient flip rear peep site , could have been changed but we dont know that at this point , BSA had multiple contracts and we might give more if we could see the serial number better or had the back of the bolt handle number , 


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: September 05 2019 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by pkocke pkocke wrote:

Thank you for the response. I've looked all over and I don't see markings on the bolt handle. Do you have any websites you can refer me to for gun history?



If there is no matching serial number on the bolt handle then it is mismatched.

You should ensure that BOTH locking lugs make 100% contact. Each rifle has to have the bolt CORRECTLY fitted (fitted as in needing work done to it, not just 'slid into place')

It is not a difficult procedure to check, but becomes a bit more complicated it there is not full engagement.

During use a rifle bolt, due to recoil, will impact back onto the locking lugs and will start to distort & wear thru the heat treatment, after a few rounds the bolt lugs and the action lugs become a 'perfect pair'. Sliding in a new bolt, or a bolt from a different rifle means that the lugs are no longer 'paired.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 06 2019 at 6:51am
A small correction if I may.
100% is NOT the goal. Its also damn near impossible.
Equal contact on both is the goal.


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: pkocke
Date Posted: September 06 2019 at 7:58pm
Thanks to everyone who has responded. I've attached pictures of the back of the bolt handle, which sounds like it is a mismatch. I always thought the model number was M194. The pictures show all of the gun markings.    My next question is how do I assure the locking lugs have equal contact?




Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: September 06 2019 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by pkocke pkocke wrote:

   My next question is how do I assure the locking lugs have equal contact?



Remove bolt
Add 'Engineers blue' to the bolt lugs
Reassemble bolt into rifle
Cycle bolt
Remove bolt (gently)
Inspect bolt.

Wherever there is 'engineers blue' there is no contact between the bolt lugs and the action lugs.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stuart-Engineers-Micrometer-Blue-Marking-38-gram-Tin-FROM-CHRONOS/371553549413?epid=1888958634&hash=item5682513c65:g:YEAAAOSwJ59Z1R82" rel="nofollow - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stuart-Engineers-Micrometer-Blue-Marking-38-gram-Tin-FROM-CHRONOS/371553549413?epid=1888958634&hash=item5682513c65:g:YEAAAOSwJ59Z1R82

Your 'local' ebay, Amazon or Engineering store should have it readily available.


If you 'come back' with the results, we can advise on the next stage (if needed)


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 6:57am
You can also use a "sharpie" to add ink the the lugs if you cant get Blue.

The bolts definitely been ground both the serial number & the proof mark are gone.
Confused




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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 6:58am
I use a big fat industrial black magic marker in place of engineers' blue, it shows up the contact points like a charm.

I don't get hung up on the 'even' bearing. The very configuration of the two lugs is quite different. The small lug does the camming for initial extraction on opening. Their cam tracks are not the same.

As long as i get contact on both lugs I am happy. 'Good contact' being the judgement call.


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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: englishman_ca
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 6:59am
Great idea Shamu. You beat me to it by 43 seconds!

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Look to your front, mark your target when it comes!


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 7:02am
Great minds . . .
Star


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: MJ11
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 7:47am
Hmmm?

Early cocking piece knob on the replaced bolt.

Welcome aboard.




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The Spartans do not ask how many the enemies are but where they are


Posted By: pkocke
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 10:37am
Thanks again! I held a flashlight to the bolt handle and there is a serial number: 85L6655>. I don't know if this helps any. I'll try the sharpie method and let you know


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 4:16pm
Don't forget to pull back on the bolt handle while doing it, it simulates a loaded round's resistance.
Wink

https://pics.me.me/halt-or-i-shall-simulate-gunfire-meanwhile-in-england-lol-6881769.png


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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: Goosic
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by pkocke pkocke wrote:

Thanks again! I held a flashlight to the bolt handle and there is a serial number: 85L6655>. I don't know if this helps any. I'll try the sharpie method and let you know
The L in the serial number is indicative of it being made at the Canadian  Long Branch facility...


Posted By: Stanforth
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 5:06am
https://pics.me.me/halt-or-i-shall-simulate-gunfire-meanwhile-in-england-lol-6881769.png

He wouldn't be allowed to posses the knife in public.  Shocked


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Life.. a sexually transmitted condition that is invariably fatal.


Posted By: Shamu
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 9:54am
Cry





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Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)


Posted By: A square 10
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 8:29pm
nothing like shinny pointy bits to get their attention at close quarters , if your a ways out im aiming center mass - just so you know , im not out of bullets yet , 


Posted By: 303carbine
Date Posted: September 09 2019 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

It is a Lee Enfield, model : "Rifle No4 Mk1"

Manufactured (probably) 1943 / 44

Manufactured in the UK by BSA

Does the serial number on the rear of the bolt handle match that on the butt-socket ?

BSA marks their 303 rifles with M47C, this one only has the M


Posted By: The Armourer
Date Posted: September 09 2019 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by 303carbine 303carbine wrote:

Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

It is a Lee Enfield, model : "Rifle No4 Mk1"

Manufactured (probably) 1943 / 44

Manufactured in the UK by BSA

Does the serial number on the rear of the bolt handle match that on the butt-socket ?


BSA marks their 303 rifles with M47C, this one only has the M


Not quite correct as they were marked for the factory of production.

I think if you look closely at the markings on the Butt-Socket of the OP's rifle there is the "M" and signs of part of a "4" and some grind marks - I would suggest that this rifle was marked M47? but has been 'scrubbed'.

All factories in the North were prefixed with a "N", those in the Midlands were prefixed by "M" and those in the South prefixed by "S"

M47A     -     B.S.A. Guns, Small Heath, Birmingham     UK
M47B     -     B.S.A. Guns, Redditch, Hereford & Worcester     UK
M47C     -     B.S.A. Guns, Shirley, Birmingham     UK

You may not be aware of the relevance of the 'later' dispersal rifles :

With the invasion scare, the Ministry of Supply ordered BSA to make rifles out of whatever parts it could get together. Hence the rifles were made of mixtures of commercial and military parts, mixed walnut and beech wood (or all-beech), later on No4 butts and firing pin/cocking pieces. A second wave of production in 1945 even used recycled and re-dated receivers.
About the same time the emergency rifle production was started, BSA was ordered to disperse its many Birmingham factories away from the bomb-target central area, and also to increase war production by diluting experienced staff with war staff. BSA was a huge engineering group, and this "Dispersal" programme led to 70 separate factories being set up, moved and/or expanded. Rifle production involved several of these factories (both No1s and No4s), and this type of "all available parts" No1 has become known as a "Dispersal rifle". Technically, even the No4s were Dispersals, as well as motorbikes, bicycles, aircraft parts, machine guns and heavy weaponry...
BSA marked these rifles with just the first "B" of BSA & Co. Presumably this was to dissociate the company from these slightly less-than top quality peacetime rifles!





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