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Savage No. 4 Mk 1/3

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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 6:45am
I stripped the Savage down.  The forend muzzle bearing pressure was down to 2 lbs.  Also, the trigger guard was set far too deep in the forend at the main screw causing it to bend significantly when the main screw was tightened.  

I temporarily fitted a 0.016 thick shim on each side between the receiver and rear horizontal bearing surfaces on the forend, a 0.062 thick shim under the front of the trigger guard and fitted a longer main screw collar. 

Now measure 7 lbs pressure at the muzzle to lift the barrel off the forend bearing.  Time to go test fire.  If all is well, I will make the permanent adjustments to the forend bearing surfaces. 

This is the stand I made to measure barrel pressure from the forend.  Very simple to make. A .003 thick aluminum shim stock inserted between barrel and forend bearing and a trigger scale in the muzzle.  Pull down on the trigger scale and note weight when the shim begins to slide with light pulling pressure. 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 10:32am
Good job! Nicely executed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 11:13am
You can also hang water bottles of the required weight at the end of the barrel. Same technique basically but removes the need for reading the spring balance as you pull the shim.
This thread reminds me that I need to check my rifles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

At the range today to shoot the Savage.  I’ve got some work to do.  It’s stringing shots vertically, 4 to 6 Minutes,  very ugly. 
Something must have gone wrong with the forend fit.  Something else to fiddle with over the winter.  It had shot so well before, at least I know it’s not me! 😳

 
I have run the gambit of various stocksets for the No4 Enfield. Be it a full military furniture set or the aftermarket sporterized stockset like the ones produced by Sile. I have followed the stocking up procedures by Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Laidler as well. What I have not figured out yet is, did it accomplish anything as far as accuracy goes. The rifles shot fine prior to the refit and stocking up and they shot fine after. I currently have one Enfield rifle with a fully floated barrel. "Totally unintentional. It just worked out that way." And I have one other Enfield in full military dress complete with the muzzle bearing stocking up procedure. Side by side comparisons between the two with both rifles on the bench using bipods for front support and a sandbag for rear support and shooting 25 rounds a piece, my end results were inconclusive being that both both rifles performed identically. The one constant between the two is the reciever bedding, the fit of the king screw collar and, pressure of the trigger guard against the furniture with a constant 18 inch pounds of torque on the King Screw. I set that up no different than the pillar bedding on my M700P. Using my daughter as my extra set of eyes, we also learned that the vertical/horizontal spread can be minimalized by adjusting the range to target beyond the given 100 yards. Due to the harmonics of the Faux L8A5T barrel, the best MOA group is achieved right at 526.5 feet. The 303B shoots best at 515 feet, with an almost Sub MOA grouping. Anything beyond 250 yards and both rifles comparatively shoot identical to one another. It was noted however that, at the beginning of the tests, the muzzle of the 303B needed to be cleaned up a bit where the end of the rifling was rounded out. It was recrowned with about .005" of metal removed to bring back the crispness of the rifling and bringing back the accuracy mentioned earlier...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2021 at 3:02pm
Something definitely went wrong with this rifle since I had shot it last, perhaps the forend drying out in the lower humidity.  The receiver had to be moving within the forend.  I do believe a tight fit of the forend on the receiver is probably the most critical factor, the receiver must not rock in the forend.

I also added some card stock to shim up the rear of the trigger guard at the forend bearing surfaces, as the gap here was increased by shimming up the rear of the receiver.  Hopefully these adjustments will do the trick, I’m hoping to go test fire it next week. 

I epoxy bedding the forend on my Mk 1/2 Long Branch at the receiver bearing surfaces including the draws and rear of the forend where it contacts the wrist of the receiver and the front and rear of the trigger guard bearing on the forend.  This rifle shoots nearly as good as my Foulton No. 4 which is center bedded (barrel free floats from the bearing at about 5 inches forward of the chamber reinforce).   I shot 100-7x prone rapid fire on Friday at 200 yards (service aperture sight, with sling). I’m sure with a scope and off the bench it’s a 1 MOA rifle.  

Shooting prone with a sling puts additional forces into the forend, so if the fit isn’t perfect, it really shows up on the target. One of the reasons that center bedded rifles do well is that pressure on the barrel from the forend bearing is not as variable as it is with the standard muzzle bearing setup when sling tension changes (or humidity, temperature, etc.).




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2021 at 5:09am
Originally posted by Goosic Goosic wrote:



Due to the harmonics of the Faux L8A5T barrel, the best MOA group is achieved right at 526.5 feet. The 303B shoots best at 515 feet, with an almost Sub MOA grouping. Anything beyond 250 yards and both rifles comparatively shoot identical to one another. 

Goosic, I’ve not heard this before, this is new to me.  What is happening at exactly 526.5 feet with the 7.62, what happens at 515 feet for the .303?   I’d like to experiment with this, but the range I shoot at only has four distances to the targets: 100, 200, 300 and 600 yds. 

I have seen some evidence that the .303 and other service rifles will group (in MOA) comparatively better at 200 yards than it does at 100.  I did an experiment some time back by simultaneously shooting thru three targets aligned at 100, 200 and 300 yards.  The 300 yard target had the smallest group in MOA (larger in actual diameter of course).  In other words, the center to center spacing was not simply a constant linear factor of the distance to target.  The theory is that the bullet doesn’t stabilize fully until past 200 yards, it follows a slight corkscrew path around the trajectory that dampens out beyond 200 yds.  

I’ve read articles by E.B.G Reynolds on the compensation feature of the Lee Enfield action that indicates that slow and fast bullets converge at around 900 yards, a slow bullet leaving the muzzle at a higher angle of departure. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scottz63 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2021 at 8:43am
Love that range cart! Looks like it means business. Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2021 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by scottz63 scottz63 wrote:

Love that range cart! Looks like it means business. Lol

Kinda pricy, but it’s a necessity for shooting in matches where you need to haul your gear to different firing lines and from your car to the firing line.  This is a Creedmoor range cart, very well made and easily collapses.  I can put three rifles on the cart, the third goes in a rifle case and straps to the back of the cart.  Shelf on the top is for holding the ammo when shooting in the standing position. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2021 at 4:27pm
I am zuch an antique! Clap
Don't shoot till you see the whites of their thighs. (Unofficial motto of the Royal Air Force)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2021 at 4:36pm
i liked the cart as well , my old 3-gun converted to cowboy cart holds them muzzle up but my sporting clays stroller carries them muzzle down , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2021 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

I am zuch an antique! Clap

Me too Sham, but I do love the “wood guns”.  Orrible term, but it’s a way to differentiate them from the black plastic.  I really do connect with these old steel and wood stocked military service rifles.    Some of these modern range conveniences do make it easier on us.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2021 at 2:47pm
Well, I’ve got more work to do on the Savage.  Test fired it today at 100 yards, shooting prone with sling on the NRA MR 31 Target (600 yard Mid Range Target reduced to 100 yards).  

I had shimmed up the rear of the reciever in the forend with 0.015 thick brass shims to raise the forend pressure on the muzzle from 2 to 7 lbs.  

My first two shots were as expected, 8 inches high, about an inch apart.  I had the rear sight all the way down.  


 

I exchanged the +0.015 front sight with a +0.075 front sight which brought the elevation of the hits right at center.  Shot #3 and #4 were less than an inch apart, but two inches right of center.




For the next 6 shots I fiddled with the front sight windage adjustment, over compensated a bit, but got the last three shots into the 10 ring, which is only 1.7 inches in diameter on this target (X ring is 0.7 inches in diameter).  The elevation spread of the 8 shots is under 2 inches.



Quite happy with this, I proceeded to shoot a 10 round string.  Then it got ugly. Stringing vertically again.  Nice tight windage spread but a 6 MOA elevation spread!  Totally unacceptable.  I may have to epoxy bed this forend.  I will first see if the shims shifted.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shamu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2021 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Originally posted by Shamu Shamu wrote:

I am zuch an antique! Clap

Me too Sham, but I do love the “wood guns”.  Orrible term, but it’s a way to differentiate them from the black plastic.  I really do connect with these old steel and wood stocked military service rifles.    Some of these modern range conveniences do make it easier on us.


Oh so am I, but my FAL just "looks better" with synthetic furniture.
My issue ones (L1A1 Ess Ell Arrs) with wood, or wood/plastic, always looked "off" to me.
Maybe its a generational thing? The FN 49 looks awesome with wood!
The opposite is true too, a plastic stocked SMLE would look as 'orribule to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2021 at 1:45am
Britrifles, vertical string like that; according to what I have read; is caused by the rear of the fore end. So possible issue, the rear of the trigger guard not holding the wood tight enough up to the receiver. Or the main screw area. With the sling in use it may have caused something to slip. You could check the up pressure at the muzzle when in prone position with the sling. (Obviously a friend needed). See if it's different.
I'll be interested to know what you find.
How tight is the wood at the wrist? I used thin brass shims at the recoil lug's to get the fore end snug on my No1mkIII*. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2021 at 5:12am
Zed, I had packed the rear beading surfaces of the trigger guard and also shimmed up the front trigger guard bedding surface with an aluminum shim and fitting a longer main screw collar. 

Either the action is rocking in the forend or sling tension is affecting the muzzle pressure inconsistently as you suggested.

I did not glue the shims into the upper rear receiver bearing points, so they may have slipped.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shiloh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2021 at 10:23am
I miss my FN C1, the Canadian service rifle. They went from restriced then Prohib in 1998. I sold it as my range no longer allows prohib rifles on the range, saw no point in keeping it. Safe queens just take up space. All the fun up here is now banned.
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