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Savage No. 4 Mk 1/3

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paddyofurniture View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddyofurniture Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2021 at 10:54am
I tried the FN C1 once or twice and was very impressed by it.

Never see them in the States or as kits.

All gone I guess.
Always looking for military manuals, Dodge M37 items,books on Berlin Germany, old atlases ( before 1946) , military maps of Scotland. English and Canadian gun parts.
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britrifles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2021 at 12:54pm
The FN C1 was the first high power rifle I shot, many years ago. I shot the C1 at Connaught Ranges, west of Ottawa, with the Army Cadets, and later with the Reserves.  Also in Chilliwack, BC during basic officer training.  Unfortunately, we really did not get any marksmanship training. 

I took the Savage barreled action out of the forend.  One of the brass shims had slid back, got hammered down around the aft radius of the receiver bedding surface.  I also found that the front trigger guard screw collar needed some filing, a bit too long and was not pulling the forward part of the receiver and barrel reinforce firmly on the forend bedding. 

By filing the front screw collar, I was able to get 5 lbs muzzle pressure without the rear receiver bedding shims, so I removed them.  I did leave in the card packing under the rear trigger guard bedding surface on the forend.  Hopefully this will do the trick and restore the good accuracy I had previously. 

 

Hoping to get to the range this week to retest, but rain in the forecat until next week.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2022 at 2:14pm
Shot the Savage today, disappointing results.

I had removed the brass shims under the rear of the action body in the forend and installed a longer main screw collar.  I left the card packing under the rear of the trigger guard.  Pressure on the barrel at the muzzle from the forend was 4 -5 lbs.  

I shot 6 groups of 10 shots each (total of 60 rounds) at 200 yards.  It’s still stringing vertically.  The pic below was the best group.  The others ranged from 6 to 8 MOA vertical, very poor.  The last shot was the  high 7, otherwise would have been a 2 MOA group.  Lateral spread was typically less than 2 MOA for all six groups.

What was so frustrating is I could tell that the rifle “wanted to group”.  I would get a small cluster of 5 or 6 shots out of the 10 that were all close together, then 3 or four vertical fliers, high and low. There were 6 shots in the group below that were less than one MOA apart. 

I’m at a loss with his rifle now.  It has me stumped.  I’ve checked everything I know to check.  The last resort is to epoxy bed the action, I don’t really want to do that as I want to use this rifle in CMP matches.  I’ll pull it apart again and give the forend a very careful inspection.  Something is moving.  I thought maybe the butt stock bolt was loose, but nope, I could barely turn the bolt any tighter with my T handle 1/4 inch hex bit driver. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2022 at 5:43pm
I think I’ve found the problem.  

The stock bolt was very tight in the butt stock, had to drive it out with a rod.  It was hard to turn even once backed off from the action body threads.  The threads were gummed up such that I could not fully tighten the bolt.  With the bolt removed, the forward face of the butt stock was rocking on the inner bottom vertical surface of the action body wrist, it rocked vertically quite a bit.  

I took a bit of material off the front face of the butt stock with a large flat sanding block and relieved the bolt hole with a round file. The butt stock now seems good and tight.  

Now to reload and back to the range to test. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2022 at 12:48pm
Did a few more things to the Savage today: 

1. Wrapped the butt stock tapered forward end with masking tape to make it a tight fit into the action body butt socket. 
2. Inserted a .014 thick card between front of butt stock face and action body butt socket. This will help prevent recoil forces from damaging the edges of the butt stock at the back end of the tapered section. 
3. Relieved the forend barrel channel, the barrel was touching (or nearly touching) in areas around the sling swivel band and between the bottom milled lightening pockets aft of the sling swivel band. 
4. Removed the shim under the front of the trigger guard, installed the shorter main screw collar. 
5. Set trigger pull weight to 4.5 lbs. 

So far, all my changes keep the rifle “legal” for CMP matches. 

David Watson states in his book “The Lee Enfield Performance Tuning Manual” that the front trigger guard screw should be torqued to 45 inlbs.  I have not set a specific torque, probably tighten it to 25 to 35 inlbs.  He also suggests removing the screw collar, and that’s how my Fulton Regulated rifle was set up.  I have made sure that the trigger guard front screw does not bottom on the collar before it’s fully tight. I always back the main screw off 1/4 to 1/2 turn when not using the rifle.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2022 at 1:57pm
Looking at the groupings, my first thought was, the barrel is moving as it heats up as well as yawing right and left. The last rifle I owned that did similar had the barrel bedded at the muzzle and at the area just behind the lower barrel band. The muzzle area was fully encapsulated so as not to have any XYZ movements. The next step was to fire two 10 round groups starting at 50 yards. Check POI and then two 10 round groups at 100 yards, checking POI once more. It was noted that the groupings were much smaller than before and the horizontal stringing had almost disappeared.  I say almost because if you look carefully at the ten round groups, starting with the first shot, the groups form a lefthanded spiral. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2022 at 2:29pm
Goosic, I should have taken a pic of the worst group.  The five other groups were strung vertically 6 to 8 MOA.  The photo above was the best group which had 9/10 shots under 2 MOA, only one flier. I  think this indicates the “potential” for this rifle once the source of the vertical stringing is eliminated. 

Horizontal dispersion was quite good for all six 10 shot groups, consistently less than 2 MOA, and quite satisfactory considering this was shot with original sights (no scope) and no support under the rifle (prone position). 

These electronic targets are nice, I can go back and look at the position of each shot.  In some groups, sequential shots ping ponged from high to low, but always with a tight lateral spread.  

I sure hope I’ve found the problem, I plan to go to the range on Friday to test again. 

And, for our members, I apologize for all the boring details here, but this is a great place to document what I’ve done and the results, I’ve gone back to my older posts numerous times to figure out what has worked and what hasn’t for me. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2022 at 3:10pm
I'm going to the range next week to see how the 7.62mm Enfield works in its new woodwork.  I'm going to use the 155grn Palma Match load as well...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2022 at 3:23pm
Goosic, please post your results.  I’d be very interested in seeing how they shoot from your 7.62 barrel. What load will you be using?  I’m a bit concern that my 45 gr. Varget load will be too stout and it will blow the groups out. 

My DCRA conversions have a Long Branch made barrel, 1:12 RH twist, six groove.  I’m not sure exactly when Long Branch developed the conversion barrels for DCRA, I suspect early 1960’s.  My two rifles were done done in ‘65/‘66.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2022 at 3:39pm
I know we are off this thread topic, but the 1967 Palma long range matches (Canada, USA and UK) were shot using the 7.62 DCRA Conversions with a CIL 150 gr boat tail bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2800 fps. Reports were were very satisfactory.   I’m trying to duplicate that load using the 155 grain Sierra Palma MatchKing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2022 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by britrifles britrifles wrote:

Goosic, please post your results.  I’d be very interested in seeing how they shoot from your 7.62 barrel. (What load will you be using?)
  I’m a bit concern that my 45 gr. Varget load will be too stout and it will blow the groups out. 
155grn Lapua Scenar/HPBT, 42.5grns of Norma 202 (WLRM) primers.
According to Norma, the fps should be between 2723 and 2805 with a very nominal PSI of 43,100...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2022 at 6:25pm
revisited this a few times - i miss my FAL , 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2022 at 12:33pm
Finally success with the Savage.  The rifle performed very well today.  No doubt, tightening up the butt stock fit into the action body butt socket fixed the vertical stringing issue.  

Here’s what the rifle was doing before tightening up the butt stock fit, very ugly 6 MOA vertically strung group:


And after tightening up the butt stock fit:  


  

These five shots grouped at 1.2 MOA, smaller than the X ring, shot prone in sling at 200 yards.  Needed a adjustment of the front sight to center the group.  Rear sight was all the way down, so I will need a taller front sight.  My 10 shot groups were 2 to 3 MOA.  

I’m sure glad to have solved this problem.  The rifle is now ready for the CMP Vintage Military Rifle matches. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goosic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2022 at 1:25pm
Not trying to step over your post britrifles. 
I too have been working on squaring up my No4Mk1/2 by getting rid of the 2A1 Ishy barrel and installing a 5 groove. 303B Fazackerly barrel.  This rifle will be my test mule for any future load testing once I get it zeroed.  I have it currently fitted with a Lucid 6-24×50 tactical rifle scope. (Don't want to take any chances.) I will be using Sierra .311 174grn HPBT projectiles under 40.0grns of Norma N202 powder with WLRM primers for ignition. Should be right around 2500+ fps.  Other than the rifle pulled tight into my shoulder, I will be using a tactical bipod and buttstock support. This time around, it is about the accuracy of the rifle and not me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2022 at 4:52pm
Goosic, good luck on the rebarrelling, do let us know how it shoots. That load should shoot great. 

I was sorting thru my front sight blade spares looking for a taller front sight and found a Parker Hale 0.07” wide blade (standard service front sight is 0.05” wide). The wider blade will be much better for holding a consistent POA on the black bull.  This is allowed in the CMP rules as well as reducing the diameter rear sight aperture.  

The front sight blade I had on the Savage was a +.015 and the rifle is shooting a bit high with the rear sight all the way down.   This PH sight is a +.03 so it will lower the POI by about 2 MOA bringing the rear sight to regulate to the index range marks. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote britrifles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2022 at 6:11am
Hers is what I did to tighten up the butt stock.  Capt Laidler would probably not approve of this, but finding a way to put wood back onto the butt stock tenon would be a pain in the butt! 

First thing I noticed is that the body (receiver) butt socket is the early type with the single rounded step on the left side.  The butt stock is the later type with the double rounded steps.  





The butt stock tenon only contacted the body socket on the sides when it was fully seated, there was NO contact around the upper and lower tenon surfaces of the butt.  It easily rocked up and down in the butt socket.  This explained the vertical stringing, the line of action of recoil is above the center of the butt plate and results in the back of the butt rotating downwards relative to the action body.  Inconsistent amount (shot to shot) of rotation of the stock within the butt socket showed up on the target. 

With the stock bolt removed, it was easy to seat the butt tenon fully into the socket.  To fix this, I wrapped the tenon with 2 1/2 turns of masking tape, overlapping at the top flat of the tenon.  That was still not enough to make contact with the upper and lower surfaces of the butt socket.  I added two more layers of tape to those areas.  


 
The “washer” shape on the left of the above photo is a .014 thick card stock to shim the butt stock back to keep the recoil forces from overloading the shoulder edges of the butt stock.  

With the tenon wrapped in tape, here is the fit to the body socket after pressing firmly by hand.  



Tighten the stock bolt very firmly using a 1/4 inch ratchet or a hex bit “T” handle driver.  This brought the shoulder of the tenon just barely in contact with the rear edge of the butt socket.  Capt Laidler says to maintain a gap here of 2mm, but none of my No. 4 rifles have any visible gap here and I’ve put about 10,000 rounds in one of my No. 4 rifles with no problems.

A loose stock in the action body could result in horizontal stringing if the side to side fit was poor, but not likely as bad as the vertical stringing from a poor fit on the upper and lower tenon surfaces due to the action of recoil forces.  

If you are struggling to get reasonable accuracy from your Lee Enfield, check the fit of the stock tenon in the action body butt socket. 




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