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Sparkbrook No1 MK1 1902

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Nswluke View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 13 2020 at 2:24pm
Hey guys, Picked this up yesterday and am hoping to find out a bit of information on it. 
I'm already in the hunt for a front sight if anyone has a picture of the original one that's meant to be on it that would be greatly appreciated and im pretty sure i need a rear volly sight aswell.

thanks 



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Marco1010 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marco1010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 14 2020 at 9:52pm
nice find !! great that it still has the front volley sight shouldn't be too hard to find the correct front sight.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nswluke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2020 at 1:02pm
Thanks, i think i still need to find the rear peep sight i think they may be called. i dont know much about these old rifles and cant seem to find alot of info on them 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2020 at 3:22pm
great find , earlier than a no1 tho - that is a long lee , the no1  classification didn't apply as that till long after the mkIII were in existence and the mkI were retroactively labeled such but those were the SMLE rifles not the long lees of the MLM & MLE versions , 

your rifle takes the 1888 bayonet , the no1 rifles took the 1903 & 1907 bayonets - different boss mount altogether , 

i cant see the left rear receiver in your photos so im not sure the status of your rear volleys , 

i can post photos but need to switch computers ..........back - beautiful rifle by the way , you got a fine example of a tough to find version , 

 photos -

the long lee is at the top , this is an MLE version , 

the [no1] SMLE mk 1*** is second down , 

FWIW the bottom one is a locg lee MLM version cut down and converted to a 22cal trainer - not relevant to this conversation 



this is the muzzel end of a [no 1] SMLE mkI for reference -




nere is what you are looking for on your long lee rear volley sight 





here is the only photo i found so far for front sight on a long lee - far left 



and you can see the bayonets next to the rifles in this one as well , 
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Nswluke View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nswluke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2020 at 4:17pm
Thanks heaps for the info, its great to know. 
Handy knowing its an earlier model.

So do you happen to know why it is stamped 1902 on the side?
I will be on the hunt for one of those rear volley sights as i am missing the whole part. guessing its not going to be easy to find. with any luck ill be able to find a bayonet to suit as well.

great looking collection you have there as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Armourer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 12:35am
Originally posted by Nswluke Nswluke wrote:


So do you happen to know why it is stamped 1902 on the side?


The year of manufacture.

Sparkbrook produced 14,640 Mk1 up until 1906
Enfield produced 193,644 up to 1907
BSA produced 150,000 up to 1907
LSA produced 60,000 up to 1906
Ishapore produced 3000 up to 1909


I am not the author of the following and have no record where I got it from :


History Of The Long Lee

 

Here are the types of long Lee.

1. Magazine Lee-Metford (MLM) mk. I: 1889-1892. Only a handful left, nearly all upgraded to mk. I*.

2. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. I*: 1889-1892 (upgrades from mk. I), 1893-c. 1906 (new made), the latter type being scarcer and more desirable (n=359,500 mk. I and mk. I* combined; the records do not differentiate).

3. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. II: 1892-1896. Moderately scarce (n=252,075).

4. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. II*: 1895-1896. Rare (n=13,479).

5. Magazine Lee-Enfield (MLE) mk. I: 1896-1899. Slightly scarce (n=317,196).

6. Magazine Lee-Enfield mk. I*: 1899-c. 1903. Slightly scarce, though most that exist are in Australia or NZ; uncommon in North America (n=590,841).

7. Charger-loading Lee-Metford (CLLM) mk. II: 1907-1909. Rare, nearly all upgraded to CLLE mk. I* (n=unknown but no fewer than 4,454).

8. Charger-loading Lee-Enfield (CLLE) mk. I: 1907?-1914? Rare and exact production dates unknown (n=unknown but no fewer than 778).

9. Charger-loading Lee-Enfield mk. I*: 1907-c. 1915. Moderately scarce (n=unknown but approx. 327,000 plus most of the CLLMs upgraded).

The history of the charger-loading series of rifles is confusing and is worth repeating here. In 1902, the List of Changes (LOC) declared that Lee-Metford carbines (§ 11078) and rifles (§ 11498) would, upon rebarrelling with Enfield barrels, be renamed Lee-Enfields. (The List of Changes was a military periodical that detailed the introduction of new weapons, accoutrements and equipment.) For rifles mks. II and II*, the latter marks of arm were to be struck and “L.E.” and “I*” added on the buttsocket. This was logical but made it impossible to verbally distinguish the safetyless former mk. IIs from the safety-fitted former mk. II*s and safety-fitted Lee-Enfields. Two years later, in March 1904, the rule was rescinded. Regardless of barrel type, all (safetyless) rifles that had started as MLM mk. IIs were to be called such (LOC § 12184), and the 1902-vintage “I*” retrostamps were to be crossed out and a new “II” retrostamp added. In July 1907, the conversion programme for the CLLM mk. II and CLLE mk. I* began, the former converted from MLM mk. IIs and the latter from MLE mk. Is and I*s and MLM mk. II*s (LOC §13992). There was no mention of a CLLE mk. I model. In February 1909, the CLLM mk. II conversion program was ended, and all existing CLLMs were to be altered to CLLE mk. I* by having new safety-type bolts fitted (§14758). (In 1910, its being assumed that all Metford barrels would by now have been replaced, the stamping of a distinguishing nocksform “E” for Enfield-rifling was desisted (§ 15000).) In September 1914, the LOC acknowledged its failure previously to mention the CLLE mk. I, going on to describe the alterations necessary to upgrade the model to accept mk. VII ammunition (§ 17041). A month later (§ 17011), the LOC described the same process for the CLLE mk. I*. There was no corresponding entry for the CLLM mk. II because by now all were supposed to have been converted to CLLE mk. I*.

There were also two Indian charger-loaders described in the Indian List of Changes (ILOC), the CLLE mk. I India Pattern and the CLLE mk. II India Pattern. The former had a charger guide, not bridge, while the latter was virtually identical to the regular British CLLE mk. I. The India Pattern CLLEs are virtually unknown today. I know of the existence of two of the mk. IIs and none of the mk. Is


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote devrep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 3:20am
that rifle is a time capsule.  please do not try to remove rust or mess with the wood finish .  just oil everything.
double gun
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Honkytonk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 6:25am
Great find!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nswluke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by The Armourer The Armourer wrote:

Originally posted by Nswluke Nswluke wrote:


So do you happen to know why it is stamped 1902 on the side?


The year of manufacture.

Sparkbrook produced 14,640 Mk1 up until 1906
Enfield produced 193,644 up to 1907
BSA produced 150,000 up to 1907
LSA produced 60,000 up to 1906
Ishapore produced 3000 up to 1909


I am not the author of the following and have no record where I got it from :


History Of The Long Lee

 

Here are the types of long Lee.

1. Magazine Lee-Metford (MLM) mk. I: 1889-1892. Only a handful left, nearly all upgraded to mk. I*.

2. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. I*: 1889-1892 (upgrades from mk. I), 1893-c. 1906 (new made), the latter type being scarcer and more desirable (n=359,500 mk. I and mk. I* combined; the records do not differentiate).

3. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. II: 1892-1896. Moderately scarce (n=252,075).

4. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. II*: 1895-1896. Rare (n=13,479).

5. Magazine Lee-Enfield (MLE) mk. I: 1896-1899. Slightly scarce (n=317,196).

6. Magazine Lee-Enfield mk. I*: 1899-c. 1903. Slightly scarce, though most that exist are in Australia or NZ; uncommon in North America (n=590,841).

7. Charger-loading Lee-Metford (CLLM) mk. II: 1907-1909. Rare, nearly all upgraded to CLLE mk. I* (n=unknown but no fewer than 4,454).

8. Charger-loading Lee-Enfield (CLLE) mk. I: 1907?-1914? Rare and exact production dates unknown (n=unknown but no fewer than 778).

9. Charger-loading Lee-Enfield mk. I*: 1907-c. 1915. Moderately scarce (n=unknown but approx. 327,000 plus most of the CLLMs upgraded).

The history of the charger-loading series of rifles is confusing and is worth repeating here. In 1902, the List of Changes (LOC) declared that Lee-Metford carbines (§ 11078) and rifles (§ 11498) would, upon rebarrelling with Enfield barrels, be renamed Lee-Enfields. (The List of Changes was a military periodical that detailed the introduction of new weapons, accoutrements and equipment.) For rifles mks. II and II*, the latter marks of arm were to be struck and “L.E.” and “I*” added on the buttsocket. This was logical but made it impossible to verbally distinguish the safetyless former mk. IIs from the safety-fitted former mk. II*s and safety-fitted Lee-Enfields. Two years later, in March 1904, the rule was rescinded. Regardless of barrel type, all (safetyless) rifles that had started as MLM mk. IIs were to be called such (LOC § 12184), and the 1902-vintage “I*” retrostamps were to be crossed out and a new “II” retrostamp added. In July 1907, the conversion programme for the CLLM mk. II and CLLE mk. I* began, the former converted from MLM mk. IIs and the latter from MLE mk. Is and I*s and MLM mk. II*s (LOC §13992). There was no mention of a CLLE mk. I model. In February 1909, the CLLM mk. II conversion program was ended, and all existing CLLMs were to be altered to CLLE mk. I* by having new safety-type bolts fitted (§14758). (In 1910, its being assumed that all Metford barrels would by now have been replaced, the stamping of a distinguishing nocksform “E” for Enfield-rifling was desisted (§ 15000).) In September 1914, the LOC acknowledged its failure previously to mention the CLLE mk. I, going on to describe the alterations necessary to upgrade the model to accept mk. VII ammunition (§ 17041). A month later (§ 17011), the LOC described the same process for the CLLE mk. I*. There was no corresponding entry for the CLLM mk. II because by now all were supposed to have been converted to CLLE mk. I*.

There were also two Indian charger-loaders described in the Indian List of Changes (ILOC), the CLLE mk. I India Pattern and the CLLE mk. II India Pattern. The former had a charger guide, not bridge, while the latter was virtually identical to the regular British CLLE mk. I. The India Pattern CLLEs are virtually unknown today. I know of the existence of two of the mk. IIs and none of the mk. Is




Thanks alot for the info, was alot better then anything i was able to find myself. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nswluke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by devrep devrep wrote:

that rifle is a time capsule.  please do not try to remove rust or mess with the wood finish .  just oil everything.

I wont be messing with it at all, going to try find the front and rear volly sights and thats it. will get a gunsmith to clean the internal of the barrel due to minor rusting however everything the eye sees wont be touched. 
I wanted this to keep all original so will be taking my time to find the right parts for it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A square 10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 5:50pm
FWIW the long lee in my photo is also a 1902 but made at BSA its a mkI* , congrats on a fine rifle 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nswluke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2020 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by A square 10 A square 10 wrote:

FWIW the long lee in my photo is also a 1902 but made at BSA its a mkI* , congrats on a fine rifle 

Thanks for that, pretty happy with the find. I've been on the lookout for something like this for awhile
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