Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
Nswluke
Newbie
Joined: April 10 2019
Location: Newcastle nsw
Status: Offline
Points: 7
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Topic: Sparkbrook No1 MK1 1902 Posted: November 13 2020 at 2:24pm |
|
 |
Sponsored Links
|
|
 |
Marco1010
Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2020
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 194
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 14 2020 at 9:52pm |
nice find !! great that it still has the front volley sight shouldn't be too hard to find the correct front sight.
|
 |
Nswluke
Newbie
Joined: April 10 2019
Location: Newcastle nsw
Status: Offline
Points: 7
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 15 2020 at 1:02pm |
Thanks, i think i still need to find the rear peep sight i think they may be called. i dont know much about these old rifles and cant seem to find alot of info on them
|
 |
A square 10
Special Member
Donating Member
Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 11193
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 15 2020 at 3:22pm |
great find , earlier than a no1 tho - that is a long lee , the no1 classification didn't apply as that till long after the mkIII were in existence and the mkI were retroactively labeled such but those were the SMLE rifles not the long lees of the MLM & MLE versions ,
your rifle takes the 1888 bayonet , the no1 rifles took the 1903 & 1907 bayonets - different boss mount altogether ,
i cant see the left rear receiver in your photos so im not sure the status of your rear volleys ,
i can post photos but need to switch computers ..........back - beautiful rifle by the way , you got a fine example of a tough to find version ,
photos -
the long lee is at the top , this is an MLE version ,
the [no1] SMLE mk 1*** is second down ,
FWIW the bottom one is a locg lee MLM version cut down and converted to a 22cal trainer - not relevant to this conversation
this is the muzzel end of a [no 1] SMLE mkI for reference -
nere is what you are looking for on your long lee rear volley sight
here is the only photo i found so far for front sight on a long lee - far left
and you can see the bayonets next to the rifles in this one as well ,
|
 |
Nswluke
Newbie
Joined: April 10 2019
Location: Newcastle nsw
Status: Offline
Points: 7
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 15 2020 at 4:17pm |
Thanks heaps for the info, its great to know. Handy knowing its an earlier model.
So do you happen to know why it is stamped 1902 on the side? I will be on the hunt for one of those rear volley sights as i am missing the whole part. guessing its not going to be easy to find. with any luck ill be able to find a bayonet to suit as well.
great looking collection you have there as well.
|
 |
The Armourer
Senior Member
Joined: June 23 2019
Location: Y Felinhelli
Status: Offline
Points: 896
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 16 2020 at 12:35am |
Nswluke wrote:
So do you happen to know why it is stamped 1902 on the side?
|
The year of manufacture.
Sparkbrook produced 14,640 Mk1 up until 1906 Enfield produced 193,644 up to 1907 BSA produced 150,000 up to 1907 LSA produced 60,000 up to 1906 Ishapore produced 3000 up to 1909
I am not the author of the following and have no record where I got it from :
History Of The Long Lee
Here are the types of long Lee.
1. Magazine Lee-Metford (MLM) mk. I: 1889-1892. Only a handful left, nearly all
upgraded to mk. I*.
2. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. I*: 1889-1892 (upgrades from mk. I), 1893-c. 1906
(new made), the latter type being scarcer and more desirable (n=359,500 mk. I
and mk. I* combined; the records do not differentiate).
3. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. II: 1892-1896. Moderately scarce (n=252,075).
4. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. II*: 1895-1896. Rare (n=13,479).
5. Magazine Lee-Enfield (MLE) mk. I: 1896-1899. Slightly scarce (n=317,196).
6. Magazine Lee-Enfield mk. I*: 1899-c. 1903. Slightly scarce, though most that
exist are in Australia or NZ; uncommon in North America (n=590,841).
7. Charger-loading Lee-Metford (CLLM) mk. II: 1907-1909. Rare, nearly all
upgraded to CLLE mk. I* (n=unknown but no fewer than 4,454).
8. Charger-loading Lee-Enfield (CLLE) mk. I: 1907?-1914? Rare and exact
production dates unknown (n=unknown but no fewer than 778).
9. Charger-loading Lee-Enfield mk. I*: 1907-c. 1915. Moderately scarce
(n=unknown but approx. 327,000 plus most of the CLLMs upgraded).
The history of the charger-loading series of rifles is confusing and is worth
repeating here. In 1902, the List of Changes (LOC) declared that Lee-Metford
carbines (§ 11078) and rifles (§ 11498) would, upon rebarrelling with Enfield
barrels, be renamed Lee-Enfields. (The List of Changes was a military
periodical that detailed the introduction of new weapons, accoutrements and
equipment.) For rifles mks. II and II*, the latter marks of arm were to be
struck and “L.E.” and “I*” added on the buttsocket. This was logical but made
it impossible to verbally distinguish the safetyless former mk. IIs from the
safety-fitted former mk. II*s and safety-fitted Lee-Enfields. Two years later,
in March 1904, the rule was rescinded. Regardless of barrel type, all
(safetyless) rifles that had started as MLM mk. IIs were to be called such (LOC
§ 12184), and the 1902-vintage “I*” retrostamps were to be crossed out and a
new “II” retrostamp added. In July 1907, the conversion programme for the CLLM
mk. II and CLLE mk. I* began, the former converted from MLM mk. IIs and the
latter from MLE mk. Is and I*s and MLM mk. II*s (LOC §13992). There was no
mention of a CLLE mk. I model. In February 1909, the CLLM mk. II conversion
program was ended, and all existing CLLMs were to be altered to CLLE mk. I* by
having new safety-type bolts fitted (§14758). (In 1910, its being assumed that
all Metford barrels would by now have been replaced, the stamping of a
distinguishing nocksform “E” for Enfield-rifling was desisted (§ 15000).) In
September 1914, the LOC acknowledged its failure previously to mention the CLLE
mk. I, going on to describe the alterations necessary to upgrade the model to
accept mk. VII ammunition (§ 17041). A month later (§ 17011), the LOC described
the same process for the CLLE mk. I*. There was no corresponding entry for the
CLLM mk. II because by now all were supposed to have been converted to CLLE mk.
I*.
There were also two Indian charger-loaders described in the Indian List of
Changes (ILOC), the CLLE mk. I India Pattern and the CLLE mk. II India Pattern.
The former had a charger guide, not bridge, while the latter was virtually
identical to the regular British CLLE mk. I. The India Pattern CLLEs are
virtually unknown today. I know of the existence of two of the mk. IIs and none
of the mk. Is
|
 |
devrep
Senior Member
Joined: October 28 2020
Location: florida
Status: Offline
Points: 468
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 16 2020 at 3:20am |
that rifle is a time capsule. please do not try to remove rust or mess with the wood finish . just oil everything.
|
double gun
|
 |
Honkytonk
Senior Member
Joined: December 30 2017
Location: Brandon Mb
Status: Offline
Points: 3510
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 16 2020 at 6:25am |
Great find!
|
 |
Nswluke
Newbie
Joined: April 10 2019
Location: Newcastle nsw
Status: Offline
Points: 7
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 16 2020 at 12:16pm |
The Armourer wrote:
Nswluke wrote:
So do you happen to know why it is stamped 1902 on the side?
|
The year of manufacture.
Sparkbrook produced 14,640 Mk1 up until 1906 Enfield produced 193,644 up to 1907 BSA produced 150,000 up to 1907 LSA produced 60,000 up to 1906 Ishapore produced 3000 up to 1909
I am not the author of the following and have no record where I got it from :
History Of The Long Lee
Here are the types of long Lee.
1. Magazine Lee-Metford (MLM) mk. I: 1889-1892. Only a handful left, nearly all
upgraded to mk. I*.
2. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. I*: 1889-1892 (upgrades from mk. I), 1893-c. 1906
(new made), the latter type being scarcer and more desirable (n=359,500 mk. I
and mk. I* combined; the records do not differentiate).
3. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. II: 1892-1896. Moderately scarce (n=252,075).
4. Magazine Lee-Metford mk. II*: 1895-1896. Rare (n=13,479).
5. Magazine Lee-Enfield (MLE) mk. I: 1896-1899. Slightly scarce (n=317,196).
6. Magazine Lee-Enfield mk. I*: 1899-c. 1903. Slightly scarce, though most that
exist are in Australia or NZ; uncommon in North America (n=590,841).
7. Charger-loading Lee-Metford (CLLM) mk. II: 1907-1909. Rare, nearly all
upgraded to CLLE mk. I* (n=unknown but no fewer than 4,454).
8. Charger-loading Lee-Enfield (CLLE) mk. I: 1907?-1914? Rare and exact
production dates unknown (n=unknown but no fewer than 778).
9. Charger-loading Lee-Enfield mk. I*: 1907-c. 1915. Moderately scarce
(n=unknown but approx. 327,000 plus most of the CLLMs upgraded).
The history of the charger-loading series of rifles is confusing and is worth
repeating here. In 1902, the List of Changes (LOC) declared that Lee-Metford
carbines (§ 11078) and rifles (§ 11498) would, upon rebarrelling with Enfield
barrels, be renamed Lee-Enfields. (The List of Changes was a military
periodical that detailed the introduction of new weapons, accoutrements and
equipment.) For rifles mks. II and II*, the latter marks of arm were to be
struck and “L.E.” and “I*” added on the buttsocket. This was logical but made
it impossible to verbally distinguish the safetyless former mk. IIs from the
safety-fitted former mk. II*s and safety-fitted Lee-Enfields. Two years later,
in March 1904, the rule was rescinded. Regardless of barrel type, all
(safetyless) rifles that had started as MLM mk. IIs were to be called such (LOC
§ 12184), and the 1902-vintage “I*” retrostamps were to be crossed out and a
new “II” retrostamp added. In July 1907, the conversion programme for the CLLM
mk. II and CLLE mk. I* began, the former converted from MLM mk. IIs and the
latter from MLE mk. Is and I*s and MLM mk. II*s (LOC §13992). There was no
mention of a CLLE mk. I model. In February 1909, the CLLM mk. II conversion
program was ended, and all existing CLLMs were to be altered to CLLE mk. I* by
having new safety-type bolts fitted (§14758). (In 1910, its being assumed that
all Metford barrels would by now have been replaced, the stamping of a
distinguishing nocksform “E” for Enfield-rifling was desisted (§ 15000).) In
September 1914, the LOC acknowledged its failure previously to mention the CLLE
mk. I, going on to describe the alterations necessary to upgrade the model to
accept mk. VII ammunition (§ 17041). A month later (§ 17011), the LOC described
the same process for the CLLE mk. I*. There was no corresponding entry for the
CLLM mk. II because by now all were supposed to have been converted to CLLE mk.
I*.
There were also two Indian charger-loaders described in the Indian List of
Changes (ILOC), the CLLE mk. I India Pattern and the CLLE mk. II India Pattern.
The former had a charger guide, not bridge, while the latter was virtually
identical to the regular British CLLE mk. I. The India Pattern CLLEs are
virtually unknown today. I know of the existence of two of the mk. IIs and none
of the mk. Is
|
Thanks alot for the info, was alot better then anything i was able to find myself.
|
 |
Nswluke
Newbie
Joined: April 10 2019
Location: Newcastle nsw
Status: Offline
Points: 7
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 16 2020 at 12:18pm |
devrep wrote:
that rifle is a time capsule. please do not try to remove rust or mess with the wood finish . just oil everything. |
I wont be messing with it at all, going to try find the front and rear volly sights and thats it. will get a gunsmith to clean the internal of the barrel due to minor rusting however everything the eye sees wont be touched. I wanted this to keep all original so will be taking my time to find the right parts for it.
|
 |
A square 10
Special Member
Donating Member
Joined: December 12 2006
Location: MN , USA
Status: Offline
Points: 11193
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 16 2020 at 5:50pm |
FWIW the long lee in my photo is also a 1902 but made at BSA its a mkI* , congrats on a fine rifle
|
 |
Nswluke
Newbie
Joined: April 10 2019
Location: Newcastle nsw
Status: Offline
Points: 7
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: November 16 2020 at 7:27pm |
A square 10 wrote:
FWIW the long lee in my photo is also a 1902 but made at BSA its a mkI* , congrats on a fine rifle |
Thanks for that, pretty happy with the find. I've been on the lookout for something like this for awhile
|
 |